Panama x Malawi - Probiotic & Organic Indoor Soil Grow

[Van Stank]

Things look like they are improving brother. Not sure if thats the case but if these pics aren't lying.....keep doing what you are doing.

 

[Rider509]

Hey, Fert, lots of popcorn nugs smoke just as well as a few big colas, right?

 

[TheFertilizer]

Things look like they are improving brother. Not sure if thats the case but if these pics aren't lying.....keep doing what you are doing.

Yeah I'm not sure, because I did defoliate so I took all the ugly yellow stuff out, could just LOOK better haha I'm only really seeing magnesium issues on new growth,

Hey, Fert, lots of popcorn nugs smoke just as well as a few big colas, right?

Yeah they're just a pain in the butt to trim afterward.

 

[TheFertilizer]

Sprayed the reversal plants with some colloidal silver today. I will probably give it daily spritz for about a week or two, then flip to 12/12, and flip the big plants to 12/12 two weeks after that, should give them a good delay to be producing polden in the right time window. 4 more weeks of veg sounds like a lot though.

In the meantime I got my pot ready for the Jack Herer comparison grow. Pretty stoked, I have wanted to grow Jack Herer forever now.

Growing A Legend - An Auto Tribute To Jack Herer

I just wish I had more space/time to really do it proper. Will be giving the seed just a few weeks veg time and then flipping to 12/12. But the PxM I sacrificed was pretty runty anyway, and hopefully I will be making some nice crosses.

 

[TheFertilizer]

Put together another little micro-reservoir for my other tent today. I haven't quite got the automation setup, but this "assisted watering" as I'm calling it is so nice. I like this design much better than previous, and will probably replace the other systems' pump and riser with similar parts from this one. On the other hand, I hate this stiff distribution line, so will likely buy more softer stuff to replace with. Then I'll get some 7-day digital timers or some Blumat Automatic Water Sensors when I wanna worry about automation.

Easy-peasy watering from here on out1

 

[Van Stank]

Nice watering set up. How long do you find you need to run it to adequately water your girls?

 

[TheFertilizer]

Nice watering set up. How long do you find you need to run it to adequately water your girls?

This new one watered to run-off in less than 2 minutes I believe, I wasn't timing. The first one I made needs about 5-7 minutes. I'm probably going to upgrade the first one I built to the same pump and riser setup, and then us the manifold to adjust flow settings to where I can try to run for 1-2 minutes in each tent for full watering.

 

[Van Stank]

How much water does each pot generally need to reach run off on average

 

[bobrown14]

Right? Not me, plus the stuff they sell for the price at the stores isn't even that decent quality.


Wow man, 100 a gram for wax is nuts man. That suuuucks.


I'm still scratching my head over what's up with the plants. It looks like some kind of magnesium issue, but I don't think it's a lack of it. My soil test showed substantial amounts of both calcium and magnesium, but I'm not sure the ratio is right, though I remember bob taking a looking at it and thinking it looked good. The soil in the 5 gallon buckets is a little bit different as I'd run out and had to start mixing in Sunshine #4 with my hot-mix, but I don't know how dissimilar it should really be and the ones in the tested soil are showing slight signs of this as well. Reading up, I found that sometimes excesses can cause a slowed uptake of magnesium, especially in larger plants. So it might make since why the problem is more pronounced in the large plants, and especially ones with more light ( doing more photosynthesis ). Still I'm not really sure what the actual problem may be, because the pH is right about 7 so the only thing I can think of is excess nutrients instead of a deficit. There's not really much I can do for that either since unlike synthetic nutrients, I can't just flush the pot to equalize things. I may have to just flower these like this...

Does anybody know if the fact that they're monster cropped could have anything to do with this? It's such a shame, I was really stoked at the branching on these.

Ones in 5 gallon buckets under a 315 W CMH


The ones in the 3 gallon pots under the T5 are much healthier looking, but still showing some issues...



I'm gonna try making giving them some tea on their next water. I fed with a really light EarthJuice nutrient solution last time, mostly to try to feed the soil microbes more than the plant, but it looks like they've improved, so I do think there's some issues with my herd and I'm not gonna be able to go water-only from here on out.

I really can't help the feeling that this has something to do with the frequent spinosad spraying, so I've tried to lessen the frequency from every 2 days to every 3 because I think some of the runoff is keeping the soil too moist and that is part of the problem. I don't feel like the possibility of it being a problem of excess is as great as it being a problem with the soil being too wet, because ever since these were transplanted, the soil has not had much time to dry out. Then logic follows, that the 3 gallon pots dried faster, and wouldn't you know it, those are healthier. According to Jorge, excessively moist soil can block magnesium as well.

Problems with plants will NEVER be a magnesium deficiency. Here's why:

Chlorophyll molecular formula is: C55H72O5N4Mg <-- on the end there - is only 1 Mg molecule.

Now what would happen if that 1 Mg molecule somehow defied the laws of physics and turned into something different? Doesn't happen.. Now your soil "could" somehow be deficient in Mg.. but not very likely given the fact on the molecular makeup doesn't require a lot of Mg. There's plenty in the soil for a long while.

Yellow edges is some sort of lock out, and likely has something to do with PH of the water you are using or some nutrient killing off the micro-herd, or both.

Test your water PH and then add some worm castings to it and stir and let it sit overnight .. if you have kelp meal add in a 1/2 cup of that and water in.

Ok not going to go down the road on the "flush" thing.. gonna have to show me some science that says that's even a thing, and I will participate. Otherwise save your water while you're reading up on Cation Exchange Capacity. Then you will see that you can pour as much water thru the soil as you want. The only thing you will be doing is:

Rinsing off excess nitrogen (plant may or could be N deficient)

Drowning the micro-herd/roots/... G/L....

Not trying to be a dick here, just trying to help. Plants leaves turn colors for a lot of reasons. Look at the shape and how they are posturing... leaves pointing up, or drooping down, taco-ing .. etc.

What I see - is leaves in a healthy state as far as posture - point up or out reaching for light - perfectly normal. Some leaves have burnt tips.. points to a lot of fertilizer in the soil and maybe even a Magnesium toxicity!

If the ratio of C:Mg is off there's not a lot you can do. EWC and Kelp meal will have a proper balance of those and other minerals that the plant can use to get her natural color back.

Likely if you do nothing but water... the problem will take care of itself. But you can help it along with some EWC and/or Kelp meal (re-hydrated).


Magic potions and flushing is something I'm not familiar with. Well I know they tried flushing soil that had chemical spills and it didn't work but once they started using bacteria... boom problems solved. So don't flush that bacteria that's in the soil down the drain.. you need them to grow your plants.


I'm in catchup mode here due to trimming party that lasted a week..

Probiotic soil... likely there's too much nutrients and the soil is cooking a little bit - that will stop in a week or so. Perfectly normal...


On prices at the "store" ... lets do some math:

Lets say I got a nice haul of Blue Dream - organic (cheaper than growing with ferts), say 16 zips

@ $5 / GM = $2240 out the door. As a grower.. I'd be not real happy but not walking away either. Markup is what it is.. as is the price. Everything is negotiable, right? Unless government mandated @ $10/gm retail like Canada. In Canada there's room there for growers/farmers AND retail to make a decent living. Food for thought.

Then show up with top shelf organic... sniff sniff... oooh-la-la.. that's different!

That there is going to be $7/gm whole sale. I'll sell you this for $5/gm and call me when its gone. We can do $7 next time cause you can sell it for $12/gm.

Sorry guys about getting fired up over flushing.. prolly going to be my go-to response unless your growing in a DWC bucket.

I have a flame suit I've been wearing all the way to the moon and the stars.. and back. Kick me in the balls with science... I'm open minded.

Again, please chill out and stop smoking all that Sativa brother...it can drive you crazy!

But but but... sativa is all the rage... I'm already crazy so problems solved. All the good weeds from back in the day .. Sativa.

Hash was made from the indica and stored for years to ferment... then the hippy trail happened. Wooohooo!

 

[TheFertilizer]

How much water does each pot generally need to reach run off on average

Generally about a quart, so I really over-did it with that water, but it was the first run on it so I know to go about half now.

Problems with plants will NEVER be a magnesium deficiency. Here's why:

Chlorophyll molecular formula is: C55H72O5N4Mg <-- on the end there - is only 1 Mg molecule.

Now what would happen if that 1 Mg molecule somehow defied the laws of physics and turned into something different? Doesn't happen.. Now your soil "could" somehow be deficient in Mg.. but not very likely given the fact on the molecular makeup doesn't require a lot of Mg. There's plenty in the soil for a long while.

Yellow edges is some sort of lock out, and likely has something to do with PH of the water you are using or some nutrient killing off the micro-herd, or both.

Test your water PH and then add some worm castings to it and stir and let it sit overnight .. if you have kelp meal add in a 1/2 cup of that and water in.

Ok not going to go down the road on the "flush" thing.. gonna have to show me some science that says that's even a thing, and I will participate. Otherwise save your water while you're reading up on Cation Exchange Capacity. Then you will see that you can pour as much water thru the soil as you want. The only thing you will be doing is:

Rinsing off excess nitrogen (plant may or could be N deficient)

Drowning the micro-herd/roots/... G/L....

Not trying to be a dick here, just trying to help. Plants leaves turn colors for a lot of reasons. Look at the shape and how they are posturing... leaves pointing up, or drooping down, taco-ing .. etc.

What I see - is leaves in a healthy state as far as posture - point up or out reaching for light - perfectly normal. Some leaves have burnt tips.. points to a lot of fertilizer in the soil and maybe even a Magnesium toxicity!

If the ratio of C:Mg is off there's not a lot you can do. EWC and Kelp meal will have a proper balance of those and other minerals that the plant can use to get her natural color back.

Likely if you do nothing but water... the problem will take care of itself. But you can help it along with some EWC and/or Kelp meal (re-hydrated).


Magic potions and flushing is something I'm not familiar with. Well I know they tried flushing soil that had chemical spills and it didn't work but once they started using bacteria... boom problems solved. So don't flush that bacteria that's in the soil down the drain.. you need them to grow your plants.


I'm in catchup mode here due to trimming party that lasted a week..

Probiotic soil... likely there's too much nutrients and the soil is cooking a little bit - that will stop in a week or so. Perfectly normal...


On prices at the "store" ... lets do some math:

Lets say I got a nice haul of Blue Dream - organic (cheaper than growing with ferts), say 16 zips

@ $5 / GM = $2240 out the door. As a grower.. I'd be not real happy but not walking away either. Markup is what it is.. as is the price. Everything is negotiable, right? Unless government mandated @ $10/gm retail like Canada. In Canada there's room there for growers/farmers AND retail to make a decent living. Food for thought.

Then show up with top shelf organic... sniff sniff... oooh-la-la.. that's different!

That there is going to be $7/gm whole sale. I'll sell you this for $5/gm and call me when its gone. We can do $7 next time cause you can sell it for $12/gm.

Sorry guys about getting fired up over flushing.. prolly going to be my go-to response unless your growing in a DWC bucket.

I have a flame suit I've been wearing all the way to the moon and the stars.. and back. Kick me in the balls with science... I'm open minded.




But but but... sativa is all the rage... I'm already crazy so problems solved. All the good weeds from back in the day .. Sativa.

Hash was made from the indica and stored for years to ferment... then the hippy trail happened. Wooohooo!

Well I definitely wasn't speaking in favor of flushing, it had just been suggested. I just don't really like to argue against the traditional wisdom as much, but as I was saying to Rider, I already knew that it wouldn't actually work to leech out organic nutrients and would just kill my micro-herd. Personally I also made a grower's resolution to stop dumping nitrates down the drain just because of the ecological implications, but I didn't mention that 'cause I don't wanna sound preachy. Trust me I'm done with flushing; it's a nightmarish back-breaker of a chore anyway, and is just a "quick fix" to wash out salts from soil-gone-sodic. I kind of forgot that I hadn't been using salty fertilizers and it wouldn't have helped at all anyway after writing that. It's that "quick fix" that's so alluring... Maybe we should start a Flusher's Anonymous support group.

But this whole issue of pH of input water is something I need to get straight. I thought the herd and my soil was supposed to buffer the pH? And if not the herd, then the dolomite? It comes out of my tap pretty alkaline; not sure quite how alkaline, usually varies, but it stays pretty much in the 7-8 range so it's not obscenely alkaline. I don't adjust it, but I didn't adjust it at all the last cycle through with this soil either and didn't have this issue. Now when I had my soil analyzed, the pH came back 7.2, and that's what my little pH soil meter probe always read at too so I trusted it was properly calibrated. I recently stuck it in the pots and it still read right a hair above 7. I know that's not exactly optimal, but should a hair above 7 really be causing this much havoc?

Maybe on my next mix I can put in more peat moss and some oyster shell four for better pH stability?

Also, just picked up some Down to Earth Kelp Meal at the store yesterday and got some EWC so I can start brewing some tea now. Thanks for the recipe in the other thread, gonna go brew up some now. Thanks Bob.


The prices I've been hearing are insane, I've heard some growers are having trouble even selling their crop off for $1 a gram. What's worse is it's becoming more economically viable for them to just sell off 100 lbs of absolute crap that's going to be processed than for them to grow good weed.

 

[Rider509]

But this whole issue of pH of input water is something I need to get straight. I thought the herd and my soil was supposed to buffer the pH? And if not the herd, then the dolomite? It comes out of my tap pretty alkaline; not sure quite how alkaline, usually varies, but it stays pretty much in the 7-8 range so it's not obscenely alkaline. I don't adjust it, but I didn't adjust it at all the last cycle through with this soil either and didn't have this issue. Now when I had my soil analyzed, the pH came back 7.2, and that's what my little pH soil meter probe always read at too so I trusted it was properly calibrated. I recently stuck it in the pots and it still read right a hair above 7. I know that's not exactly optimal, but should a hair above 7 really be causing this much havoc?

The thing to remember with pH is that it's a logarithmic scale. Each whole unit is a 10x increase in acidity or alkalinity. pH 8 is ten times more alkaline than pH 7 and 100 times (10 x 10) more alkaline than pH 6. A little change makes a big difference.

 

[Van Stank]

Good information sharing going on here...I love it. Great info Bob and Rider.

Fert....hope you get whatever it sorted out brother!!

 

[bobrown14]

I use Reverse Osmosis water so the PH is always 6.5... so I don't have to worry about it. If I was using my tap water... all my plants would be dead and I'd be doing something else like opiods... actually hurt my arm last night pretty bad, took a handful of that shit... my kidneys hurt today got a lousy sleep and felt shitier than I've felt in several years.

The weird thing... I got medicated last night before I hurt my arm (dog walking - twisted funny), I didn't even feel anything at all from the opiates.. until the cannabis wore off, then I took more opiates @ 4AM and started feeling like shit ... the cannabis seemed to counter act the opiates effect on me. Tonight gonna be just cannabis.



Fert are you running all DWC or is that your watering system??

 

[TheFertilizer]

I use Reverse Osmosis water so the PH is always 6.5... so I don't have to worry about it. If I was using my tap water... all my plants would be dead and I'd be doing something else like opiods... actually hurt my arm last night pretty bad, took a handful of that shit... my kidneys hurt today got a lousy sleep and felt shitier than I've felt in several years.

The weird thing... I got medicated last night before I hurt my arm (dog walking - twisted funny), I didn't even feel anything at all from the opiates.. until the cannabis wore off, then I took more opiates @ 4AM and started feeling like shit ... the cannabis seemed to counter act the opiates effect on me. Tonight gonna be just cannabis.



Fert are you running all DWC or is that your watering system??

That's my watering system. I'm not trying to make it automated just yet, but it helps me water them quickly and easily so far.

So I thought living soil was supposed to buffer thr pH of water you put in?

 

[TheFertilizer]

Well, just waiting for things to dry out to give them this EWC/Kelp tea. I think I got the measurements mixed up that Bob recommended, so I used like 1 cup ewc and 1/2 cup kelp meal to 2.5 gallons of water when I was meant to use that amount for 5 gallons. But I think the big difference is that the stronger amount needed molasses to feed the herd, so I gave 'em some. I tried this weird pantyhose filter trick someone showed me, supposed to keep the foam from over-flowing and suspend it all, but I don't think the pantyhose is gonna be reusable at all and it just dripped down the sides of the bucket anyway. Plus it let a crap ton of sediment through to the bottom, so yeah, I'll stick with coffee filters.

I don't know if keeping it in the fridge is recommended, I mean EarthJuice says you can cool their teas to keep them, so I'm gonna try it. Should only be in the fridge for a few days while my pots dry out, then I'll give it to them at like 50/50 strength. I think I'm going to hand feed these just to avoid clogging up my pumps and reservoir, I wanna try keeping those plain water at least until I can make more LABs to run through there.

Added some shut-off valves to the water-lines so I can deliver water to individual pots or shut off flow to one or the other without disrupting the fine-flow adjustments I made on the manifold.

 

[Van Stank]

Damn brother, you get a lot of foam. I never get that much foam when I make my teas.......speaking of which, I need to start brewing another batch...thanks for the reminder Fert!!

 

[TheFertilizer]

Damn brother, you get a lot of foam. I never get that much foam when I make my teas.......speaking of which, I need to start brewing another batch...thanks for the reminder Fert!!

Yeah I usually never get that much foam, I think it was the molasses I added.

So I added a recirculation/tap line on each manifold. Two purposes, one it will recirculate the water around and make pH'ing the reservoir more thorough, and it lets me get a sample off to pH test or do whatever I need as well.

These are what labs look like in the reservoir...

I've never added them to a reservoir before. I think they might need some molasses or something to keep them sustained, but mostly it's good to inoculate with and I've heard it keeps the lines free of sludge and stuff.


Oh, forgot to mention I measured the flow rate at 1/2 quart per minute. Kind of surprising since the flow rate is rated to 172 gph on the pump and 20 gph on the manifold, I would have assumed I'd be getting a lot more flow, but that's not necessarily a bad thing. Should be able to switch the pump on for 2 minutes and get just about 1 quart per pot.

 

[bobrown14]

That's my watering system. I'm not trying to make it automated just yet, but it helps me water them quickly and easily so far.

So I thought living soil was supposed to buffer thr pH of water you put in?

It will but it won't buffer other "stuff". There's a lot of shit in our water, it won't support life in a container for sure... it will kill plants and why we dont use it for cooking or drinking.

Unless you test your water every day you don't know what your putting into your soil along with the water. Solve that issue with a water filter. You don't have to go to reverse osmosis like I do, but a filter that gets rid of minerals and other "stuff" is money well spent. We do reverse osmosis because we drink and use our filtered water for food prep.... its not big leap using it to water plants we are going to eat smoke etc.

Fert that's a pretty slick watering system... if my wife saw that she'd be jealous, she loves messing with tubing and plumbing for some reason.

Tea looks yummy too!! I don't filter mine... just add ingredients to the bucket and let her rip. When I water in the tea I usually mix with a little water - say 50/50 but you can use it full strength. I do the 50/50 thing because I'm cautious... just the way I am.. The dredges from the EWC and Kelp Meal are ok for the soil. I usually just pour the tea off and am left with a slurry in the btm of the bucket - I pour that out either in my compost bin or around perennials or trees outside. It's good stuff.

Edit:

Went back and looked at pics of your plants... the plants in VEG look pretty good to me. Turn up the lights they are a tad spindly that comes from the lighting. Everything else is perfect. I VEG my plants in full on flower lighting 18/6 after they are a few weeks old. Keeps them short and stocky..stems get thick too. Then when they hit the flower room they are used to the intensity and take off.

Remember the colloidal silver is a pretty strong chemical. Don't expect picture perfect healthy plants when using that stuff.

They used to use that shit on infants eyes at birth to kill any possible viruses that the mother may have in her privates, the communicable ones... so yeah pretty strong stuff. Kids that were born naturally thru a mother with a virus, a lot of them went blind. So it was a treatment for that. Now a days they just do a cesarean section after testing for STD in the mother.

I know... prolly TMI! food for thought tho.

 

[TheFertilizer]

It will but it won't buffer other "stuff". There's a lot of shit in our water, it won't support life in a container for sure... it will kill plants and why we dont use it for cooking or drinking.

Unless you test your water every day you don't know what your putting into your soil along with the water. Solve that issue with a water filter. You don't have to go to reverse osmosis like I do, but a filter that gets rid of minerals and other "stuff" is money well spent. We do reverse osmosis because we drink and use our filtered water for food prep.... its not big leap using it to water plants we are going to eat smoke etc.

Fert that's a pretty slick watering system... if my wife saw that she'd be jealous, she loves messing with tubing and plumbing for some reason.

Tea looks yummy too!! I don't filter mine... just add ingredients to the bucket and let her rip. When I water in the tea I usually mix with a little water - say 50/50 but you can use it full strength. I do the 50/50 thing because I'm cautious... just the way I am.. The dredges from the EWC and Kelp Meal are ok for the soil. I usually just pour the tea off and am left with a slurry in the btm of the bucket - I pour that out either in my compost bin or around perennials or trees outside. It's good stuff.

Edit:

Went back and looked at pics of your plants... the plants in VEG look pretty good to me. Turn up the lights they are a tad spindly that comes from the lighting. Everything else is perfect. I VEG my plants in full on flower lighting 18/6 after they are a few weeks old. Keeps them short and stocky..stems get thick too. Then when they hit the flower room they are used to the intensity and take off.

Remember the colloidal silver is a pretty strong chemical. Don't expect picture perfect healthy plants when using that stuff.

They used to use that shit on infants eyes at birth to kill any possible viruses that the mother may have in her privates, the communicable ones... so yeah pretty strong stuff. Kids that were born naturally thru a mother with a virus, a lot of them went blind. So it was a treatment for that. Now a days they just do a cesarean section after testing for STD in the mother.

I know... prolly TMI! food for thought tho.

Hmm well I know one of those Pur/Brita faucet-attached filters isn't really all that less expensive than an RO buddie and that's the only way I can really imagine that being practical. I suppose I could just bite the bullet and get one now before the problem just keeps getting worse though and pickup and RO filter later though.

Does testing my water with a PPM meter really tell me anything? It's usually 50-55 PPM out of my tap. I always thought that was pretty clean.

 

[TheFertilizer]

Well that was a waste of money...

Tap Water: 44 PPM, 7.1 pH
Pur Filter Water: 49 PPM, 9.5 pH

So now I have a filter that makes me drinking water more alkaline. That's totally what I needed...