Original source seeds from the 70's: Yes I have some

krj444 said:
Simply put, I for one don't really care if you get rich. I personally hope that you do and in the process are able to regenerate the genetics that have been the backbone of the pot industry since the 60's and 70's. I want to wish you the best of luck and let you know that a ready-made business is just waiting for you to open your doors. There are some of us that have dabbled in genetics enough to know that when you cross pure individuals of different strains, one has a better than average chance of producing an F1 individual that is better than the two individual strains that originally were crossed. Might not breed on all that well, but the toking will insist that you make that cross again (just for you and your close friends pleasure). There are a lot of people hoping for your success.
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My experience is that when breeding landraces IBL, you get the same landraces for maybe two generations, and then they start to change and adapt to local climate. I believe they are gene switching, which allows them to change phenotype very fast based on conditions. Hence I try to breed IBL landraces from original sourced landrace seeds. Once you interbreed with other landraces, you open the pandora's box of a huge array of genetics and possible outcomes, and you really need to run 20 or more plants and select for qualities that you want. They also tend to be unstable, so you have to run them for a few generations in order to get them stable. For these reasons, I do not do that many interbreeding runs. Last year I did the Grape Ape x Durban landrace run, and Durban x Durban landrace run. Durban by nature is very unstable, and my Durban landraces bloomed starting from June through October. I tossed the June bloomers (or rather, smoked them). I bred the late July and early August bloomers. It will be interesting to see what I get with the Double Durban and Durban Ape plants.

But my forte' is breeding IBL landraces, and using original source seeds and breeding the 1st generation. That tends to lead to stable plants, though the landrace qualities may or may not be desirable or even stable (ie. Colombians blooming in December, and Durbans blooming all over the place). My experience growing and breedig Mexican landraces is that they are very consistent in blooming time and in phenotype. They are tall thin plants. I think that Lebanese is ideal for PNW growing, as they bloom early and they are consistent. The two variables of Lebanese are that they may bloom early in July or early in August, and there are two phenotypes, an indica pehno and a sativa pheno. Both have the same high though. I believe that is a trait carried over from its original breeding, likely a Greek Kalamata sativa and a Turkish indica. Why they make Lebanese Red into hashish is mainly due to the market demand in Egypt. Lebanese Red has very good colas and has fragrant floral scent when smoked. It is not like Afghani or Nepalese that is harsh when smoked and had to be made into hasish to be palatable. Lebanese is high in CBD, which tamps down the THC buzz. But I was looking for that in this strain, as I smoke more for medical reasons now than to get high now that I am older. Lebanese beats any high CBD strain that I have tried, including Harlequin, AC/DC, Frank's Gift, etc. Its been around forever as well. Or at least 100 years anyway.
 
Night4wings20 said:
You still kicking around BigSur? I've started my landrace hunt and from memory you have extensive knowledge about landraces and the like.
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I don't know if you are looking for information about landraces or if you are looking for the genetics themselves but check out Conradino's what is a landrace thread if you haven't already. It's in his signature.
 
Night4wings20 said:
You still kicking around BigSur? I've started my landrace hunt and from memory you have extensive knowledge about landraces and the like.
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Yes, I am still kicking. This year I am motoring along with my legal grows here... I have a set of Maui Waui gals sexed and growing now (an heirloom strain), as well as my Double Durban cross (Dutch Durban x landrace Durban), some Mel Frank Durban A strain x unknown male, and my crazy cross from last year (Grape Ape x Landrace Durban), all sexed and growing. The males (best one of each) are relegated to the bull pen across the property. The Durbans already have the Durban funk of their father, unlike their Dutch Durban mother. So I hope they bloom in standard fashion, and have a real Durban THCv delayed buzz to them as well. I also got some early skunk seeds in trade, so I have a few skunk plants going now as well. I never set out to grow skunk again, but if I can get a good RKS, then I can trade my seeds for prertty much whatever I want in seed strains out there in the world. Skunk is an heirloom and not a landrace. But early NorCal skunks are a cross of landraces. Notably an (Afghan indica x Colombian Gold sativa) x Acapulco Gold sativa. Others claim it is a Dutch cross, but my experience in NorCal was that there were several different skunk strains growing in various areas and there were several strains. While Skunk #1 may have been bred in and come from Holland, there were skunks around long before it in NorCal. Skunk and purple weed were all the rage in the late 1970s.
 
Musing about the Skunk days led me to wonder why there wasn't much breeding toward fruity Afghan expressions in those days. :hmmmm: I don't remember anything ever being fruity. You'd think those phenos would have popped up all over the place, no?
 
In those days no one really knew about breeding. 99% of us did not even know about sinsemillia until the book came out in 1977. Some skunks are fruity though, particularly the ones from Uncle Fester's genetics. He open pollinated his line from what I have read, and they have a wide range of floral and skunk notes, and rare if any RKS. Similar to my Grape Ape grow last year here. Before harvest they peaked in skunk terpenes. Early on in the local grow and breeding days in the later 1970s in NorCal, purple and skunk were the two instant hits that everyone clambered for. Big Sur Holy is purple and had been around for a while, but skunk was a new thing in the late 1970s. IMO skunk was a common result in Mexican and Colombian sativa x Afghani strains. It was so prevalent early on. Pure Afghani strains were also harsh and hard to smoke. They crossed them to beef up the Mexi-lombian sativas, and to move the harvest time up, while mellowing out the harsh Afghan smoke. As I have posted earlier, once you cross breed widely different strains like Anghani and Mexican landraces, you open a HUGE can of genetic worms. Anything can and does happen. A lot of duds are created, and a few gems.

As an aside, Lebanese Red has light floral notes. It was never a factor because all the Lebanese I ever saw here was in the form of blonde and red hashish. Terpenes like hashishine dominated them. They were good, but they lacked the floral notes that I get from a bowl full of Lebanese bud. Lebanese seeds were not around here, so they were not used in breeding. All we got was hashish from there. Good hashish, but no bud from Lebanon. We never got any Brazil bud in NorCal either. None that I saw anyway. Never was a factor.
 
As I have posted before, I collected seeds during the 1970s and early 1980s. I gave out seeds to early growers in NorCal, especially in Carmel Valley, Big Sur and the Santa Cruz mountains. Back then they were just seeds. No one considered them as valuable or as landraces then, as that was all there was. All bag weed had seeds. Most people tossed the seeds out. A few of us planted them. A very small number of us saved them correctly for the long term. I started freezing them in 1977. Also back then, all weed was known by its origin, and not named like they are today. The same was true for early heirlooms like Maui Waui, Kona Gold, Cali-O, California Red Bud, etc. Big Sur Holy was actually a landrace from Zacatecas, known as Zacatecas Purple, and grown and bred IBL in smaller plots in several locations along the Big Sur coast. They later crossed Big Sur Holy with an Afghani and it is called SAGE. Many sell seeds called Big Sur Holy now, but they are all or nearly all SAGE crosses with indica traits. I have pure sativa Big Sur Holy. Tiny purple seeds that grow into tall purple monsters that bloom rather late. Too late to grow here, sadly. Also online many have SAGE listed as a cross between an Afghani and Haze, but that is not correct. Haze weed was never around then, at least it was not called Haze. Nor were there any Haze Bros in Corrolitos. I was there then. Its a retro-planted mythical strain made up for High Times. Believe it or not.

There were many bags of local grown weed that popped up in the late 1970s in NorCal, after the big picture book called Sinsemillia came out and people figured out the method from Mexico on how to grow only females and manicure buds. That was the golden age of weed for me. We had great cheap sinsemillia from Mexico, cheaper seeded weed from Colombia, potent Thai sticks from SE Asia, occasional brain freeze Ganja from India, and hash from Nepal, Afghanistan, Morocco and Lebanon. We also had the emerging near seedless local bud that was really good, and some early crosses. We also had African, now called Black Magic weed then (it was expensive even then though), and some Jamaican Lamb, Durban, and odd lots from SE Asia. Before that in the early 1970s was another golden era, when SW Mexican weed was plentiful ($20 an oz). Panama Red and Acapulco Gold were common, and SE Asian weed was super potent and pretty much everywhere during the VietNam war. Cambodian Red, the skinny Thai sticks, and VietNam weed was pretty common, as well as Asian hashish. Local weed was pretty much inheard of, with the one exception of Big Sur Holy. Jerry Kamstra made that famous in his book called Weed in 1972. Most of us grew weed then, but it was for the most part inferior. Mexican landraces tend to be mellow and lower in THC. The Colombian landraces all bloomed too late, even for California. The rains come in October there in NorCal and they were (maybe) just strating to bloom. The SW Mexico landraces were also originally bred for making teas and not smoking. Smoking weed did not become popular until the late 19th century in Mexico and the SW US. I have several Oaxaca strains that are super minty for that reason. But there were some Mexican landrace strains that kicked ass. Particularly from Michoacan and Geuerro. I wish I had some of those seeds now! *sigh* But I smoked 'em! Man, did we get high. I was high 10 years straight from age 16 to 26. I tapered off when I went back to university to get my engineering degrees. When I left engineering, I got back into growing from my collection of seeds in Southern Oregon.
 
I remember some of those - they even made it out into flyover country. We had fairly good Mexican from the summer migrant workers, and then Colombian made it to us. Some of the Mexican had names and was very good, but there was no way to know if that's actually what it was. I remember some spectacular blonde hash was around for awhile, and I had a taste of some very dense black stuff from Africa. We may even have had Panama Red - it looked and smelled right.

During the 80s, a buddy and I had an indoor barn grow that we stocked with seeds from a great bag of Colombian. By then, we knew about sinsemilla, so we culled all the males and ran everything from cuts. So we worked with purely landrace plants, reducing 80 seeds to a half dozen clone lines over a few years.

We knew about indicas and we wanted to try them or even to breed with them, but it just wasn't available, and besides, we were out of the market once we began growing our own. So nothing fruity. I've gotten a bit attached to Pakistani Chitral Kush lately. Everything it's crossed with throws off fruity phenos, and it doesn't blur the high the way a typical Afghan does.

Apparently there are still Lebanese landraces available, and they also sound promising for those of us who are looking for the sativa high.
 
RSC has good lines of landrace seeds. As the name implies, they are real. Blue Hemp seeds were also good, but they are now defunct. I have not heard great things about Seeds of Africa. Said to be variable and low quality. I have also heard good things about Cannabiogen. Cannabio and RSC do not ship to the states though. At least the last time I looked. So you have to make frineds in Europe or Canada to get them. Or find a source online that will ship them to the states.

Lebanese landrace seeds come up now and then, but they generally sell out pretty fast. I have Lebby seeds from older lines of RSC and Blue Hemp from the Bekaa Valley. They grow and breed well for me here at the 45th parallel. They bloom early too, typically finishing between early and late September. I can get them harvested before the rains come in October. Now and then we get an Indian summer in October here, but that is rare.

I want to develop a way to grow the late blooming Vietnamese, Big Sur Holy/Zac Purple and Colombian strains here outdoors. I will be testing several methods later this and early next year, one being to grow them under lights and size them up in winter, and set them out to bloom starting in April. I have gown many strains this way for a double harvest. If they take 3 months blooming, I can harvest in August. Another method is to force them to bloom by light dep in early July, and harvest them in late September. The last time I tried to grow Colombian outdoors, they just started blooming in mid October. Then the rains hit, and that was it. Any frost, and they are toast.
 
Note also that a lot of strains that we got back on the day from Mexico in NorCal were generally as advertised. Oaxacan was from Oaxaca. Guerran was from Guerrero. There was no reason to say otherwise, except maybe for selling bunk weed on the street. This was becasue the hippies controlled the supply line and typically bought from the farmers direct and imported it into the states and sold wholesale to us 'distributors'. There was no cartel involved until after Paraquat killed the old large open field farming system in Mexico. At least not the weed that I was getting. For a while after the Paraquat scare, the hippies funded growers inland and they grew prime quality sinsemillia on smaller plots. The best maincured buds I have ever seen to date were from Morelos around 1977. I sent some to Hawaii where my brother was living, and NO ONE THERE believed it was weed from the Mainland. Andyway, that died out and the cartels took over the weed trade in Mexico in the mid 1980s.
 
Another NorCal source was from SE Asia. Thai sticks were from Thailand, no question. Skinny, sparkly with trickomes, and typically they had a few seeds per stick. Cambodian Red was also the real deal. Unmistakable. So was Panama Red. They were up there with Kerala Ganja. Intense. There were also usually several strains from Vietnam and Laos around. The Asian supply typically came though the Army base at Ft Ord. They also brought in the hashish from Lebanon and Afghanistan and Morocco through military bases in Europe. Some hashish was easy to ID, like Lebanese blonde and red. Some light green hash could have been from Morocco or Afghanistan. It did not really matter though. It was usually good, and better than most seeded weed.

African strains were also obvious and they sold themselves rapidly, mainly it was either Black Magic or Durban. I so love Durban! Black Magic put me under the table. Similarly the Indian Ganja weed sold itself. I had people banging in my door for MONTHS after I sold out of ganja. It was epic. "Sorry... long gone." I have no idea where the African came in from. I only had smaller amounts of them. They were treats. Similarly Nepalese fingers and temple balls were from Nepal. I got most of that though friends in Hawaii, and some from Army buddies at Ft Ord. The Hawaiian weed came through "howley" (white) frineds and family, and through Hawaiians that I worked with that lived in Marina, a Hawaiian enclave just north of Monterey. They were always roasting whole pigs in pits. They were good eats. The Maui weed was variable through them, good and mediocre. The Kona Gold was more consistent. Kona Gold hash was the best I have ever smoked. Oh man, that was good stuff.
 
I would be quite a contribution if some wealthy patron decided to subsidize DNA typing for your strains. Phylos would benefit greatly. If I win the lottery, I'll give you a call. :Namaste:
 
Well, lots of debate about strain typing and the genetic history of weed. And what happens to DNA when they patent it. Not that I am worried about patents. That only applies to clones. Every seed has unique DNA, and as landraces, they cannot patent any seeds tested under GMO. I am not a huge fan of Phylos though. Too many ties to Dave Watson and GW Pharma, and BIG CANNABIS. Which is coming and will dominate weed sooner or later.

I have added a clause in my will that my seeds go to my younger seed trading friends outside the US that are into breeding and growing landraces. Some of these same seed trading friends are fuming over some guys buying out landrace collections and putting them up for sale or marketing them here. I am not willing to allow that to happen with my seeds. So they are safe where they are in the deep freeze. What heppens after I die? I will leave that up to my most trusted frineds.
 
To continue about landraces available in the NorCal area in the 1970s and 1980s...

Then there was the Colombian. Which for me started about 1975. In Colombia, things heated up fast when the Paraquat quashed the Mexicn weed industry. Then the Colombian weed really became prevalent when coca became super popular in US culture the early 1980s. It moved from the back room to the living room. The cartels in Colombia controlled both streams, and they often times went hand in hand. One thing about the Colombian weed, it was always sold as Colombian, regardless of where in Colombia it was from. Often times it was sold as Colombian gold. Real Colombian gold was from the Santa Marta area, where it has been grown for a long time. Later on, any and all Colombian was bricked green and fermented on the trucks in transport to sea ports. Typically it was lowland Punta Roja, but called gold. The Colombians also excelled at producing heavily seeded weed. So in that sense it was unmistakable.

Now that said, there were at least a couple dozen landrace strains of Colombian. I was lucky to have Hispanic friends from Mexico that knew guys in Los Angeles that were the pipeline for weed onto NorCal from Colombia. There were certainly other sources through other states like Texas and Florida, and through channels in Mexico. But LA was typically the source for 'Lumbo for me. I always had the word out that I would buy pound lots of exotic weed, and I got a lot of different weed that way. At that time no good loose cola/unbricked Mexican seeded weed was coming into town any more. That was another point that I figured out early on with Colombian and Mexican weed. Loose top weed was always superior. It was also more expensive and far less available, but it was around if you had the cash and connections. We had a lot of connections.
 
Big Sur when you first showed up on this forum talking about your freezer full of seeds I thought… Well I don’t know what I thought, but was under the impression for some reason that you didn’t know what a goldmine you had there. How wrong I was.
Thanks for the awesome stories. I live for this stuff.
 
BigSur said:
I am not a huge fan of Phylos though. Too many ties to Dave Watson and GW Pharma, and BIG CANNABIS. Which is coming and will dominate weed sooner or later.
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What kind of ties are we talking about? Alleged or proven?
 
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