Oct 2022 - Auto Grow - 4 Different Strains - AutoPots - Coco

ExNavyInSTL said:
I have Calcium EDTA, but someone said the sodium levels are pretty high in this version. Sometimes it gets hard to tell Bro-Science from real science.
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That was me in another forum. This is the info copied from here:


When talking about Ca EDTA we should first understand that this is not simply a calcium ion with an EDTA molecule wrapped around it. In reality, the product we purchase as Ca EDTA, that contains 9.7% Ca by weight, is actually represented chemically as C10H12O8CaN2Na2·2H2O. The Ca EDTA product is actually four parts, a few waters of crystallization, the Ca+2 cation, the chelating agent anion that wraps around it (EDTA-4) and two sodium cations, Na+, that are used to counter the two excess negative charges coming from the Ca EDTA (which we should more accurately call (CaEDTA)-2).

When adding Ca EDTA we are actually adding four things, a little water, Ca, EDTA and Na. Most importantly Ca EDTA is in reality 12.15% sodium, meaning you’re adding more Na than you’re adding Ca when you use it.
 
Peat ...

I remember your post from before and the article you attached.

My bro-science comment is more about all of the products out there in general and how someone says this, and someone says that.

Bill (I imagine unknowingly) got caught up in a little of the Bro-Science when he included Calcium EDTA in some of his comments as a suggested product to use. My guess is someone as knowledgable as Bill suggestion of using Calcium EDTA was from an earlier time before studies like the one you presented were in the mainstream. In fact in that long thread I mentioned he makes the suggestion at least a couple of times.

(1) "Transition is also the perfect time for a calcium application, which is when it requires it the most in it's life cycle. It revs up the plants metabolism for flower and prevents light tops. I suggest calcium acetate, calcium EDTA or Metalosate calcium."

(2) Calcium needs are highest at transition. Try metalosate calcium, calcium EDTA or acetate foliar or drench. Reducing feed when they have unique needs at a time like flip is only going to stunt the plants.

Again, I very much remember reading that article and then I immediately stopped using calcium EDTA in solution. I switched to Gypsum.

I do apologize for the poor wording of my comments. I can certainly see how reading what I wrote so close to the comments about sodium could seem as though I was doubting you.

I did not intend to connect any of my comments to you personally. Reality is, I acted immediately upon reading the article you presented. In fact, I haven't touched my Calcium EDTA since that day. Truth be told, I don't even use the gypsum as a foliar either. In the end, I decided to go with Cal-Mag and use their foliar suggestion to play it safe. At least I hope it is safe.

Thankfully, both of those prodcuts were cheap. They both now sit alongside many other hastefully-purchased supplements on my own Supplemental Shelf of Shame.

Here is another study that concurs with the one you citied:
Aquaponic and Hydroponic Solutions Modulate NaCl-Induced Stress in Drug-Type Cannabis sativa L.



Peat Phreak said:
That was me in another forum. This is the info copied from here:


When talking about Ca EDTA we should first understand that this is not simply a calcium ion with an EDTA molecule wrapped around it. In reality, the product we purchase as Ca EDTA, that contains 9.7% Ca by weight, is actually represented chemically as C10H12O8CaN2Na2·2H2O. The Ca EDTA product is actually four parts, a few waters of crystallization, the Ca+2 cation, the chelating agent anion that wraps around it (EDTA-4) and two sodium cations, Na+, that are used to counter the two excess negative charges coming from the Ca EDTA (which we should more accurately call (CaEDTA)-2).

When adding Ca EDTA we are actually adding four things, a little water, Ca, EDTA and Na. Most importantly Ca EDTA is in reality 12.15% sodium, meaning you’re adding more Na than you’re adding Ca when you use it.
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ExNavyInSTL said:
I agree. And I am on it.

I tend to follow this growing philosiphy of "BillFarthing" from over at THC Farmer. Unfortunately he has been missing in action as of late.

His "Ballin' On a Budget" recipe thread is ledgendary.

As for calcium, he says this is about the time (transition) for extra calcium. So, I made a foliar spray out of CaliMagic.

I have Calcium EDTA, but someone said the sodium levels are pretty high in this version. Sometimes it gets hard to tell Bro-Science from real science. Having said that, I think the EDTA is good for foliar. Even so, I also have some Gypsum for foliar. It's Cheap.

Here are some paraphrased quotes from him on this:

"Transition is also the perfect time for a calcium application, which is when it requires it the most in it's life cycle. It revs up the plants metabolism for flower and prevents light tops. I suggest calcium acetate, calcium EDTA or Metalosate calcium."

Calcium at Transition: "At transition, you can bump the increased calcium intake at 0.2-0.4g/gallon of calcium acetate."

Also (assuming Jack's is base nute):

"I just recommend fulvic for chelation/organic acids, silica for strong stems and a bit of calcium and cytokinin dominant kelp for structure and vigor at transition. Potassium dominant bloom booster week 6 of flower. A majority of the work is done by the base fertilizer."

Obviously, I don't follow every word of the Ballin' thread, but it is based around using Jack's 3-2-1, which I have become a big fan of those nutrients. That thread is the reason I use Mr. Fulvic and Mono-Silicic Acid. He also differentiates the differences in Kelp.

Bill says: "I personally don't use a lot of kelp because the micros aren't chelated and the high sodium content. If you want an auxin-dominant kelp for veg, look up Kelpack's ecklonia maxima. Cytokinin-dominant kelp, ascophylum nodosum used as a foliar one time at transition prevents stretch and improves plant structure."

As for Kelp: I follow the science behind the Virginia Tech's study that showed the combination of Humic Acid & Kelp at a 5:2 ratio proved 50% more root mass than either product used separately.

I learned the above watching Harley Smith videos:

I get my 5:2 mix from KelpForLess, but I don't know if they use the cytokinin-dominant variation. Shame on me.

Back to Jacks: Since the "ballin'" thread was started, Jacks has since raised the amount of ingredients in the recipe (except for Epsom). I'm guessing this was to address issues like Calcium deficiencies. For instsance, A is now 3.79 g (p/gal) whereas it was 3.6 before. B is now 2.52 g/gal, before it was 2.4. Epsom dropped from 1.2 grams to 0.99.

I don't know the exact E.C. change, but I think the new recipe runs close to 1.9.

If you made it this far, thanks for sticking with this coffee-generated "More-Than-You-Ever-Wanted-To-Read" comments.

:Namaste:
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Thought I'd poke my nose in…

I've done a couple of GG grows (autos) using an SP 3000, though mine were in hydro (per sig block). Oh, and I use Jacks 3-2-1 but the GG's didn't need the extra Mg or S in the Epsom. Standard Jack's has a lot of both of those. I ran 3-2-0 all the way from seedling to chop and it worked out very well.

That could be calcium but what strikes me is that the blemish is a very well defined "dot", it's large relative to the leaf, and there's only one. Any chance you dropped nute water on it?

Your DLI on the GG is the same as I was using. A DLI of 40+ is a lot for a small plant but cannabis loves light. I 'm a big believer in feeding my plants well so my DLI's get into the mid-60's pretty quickly. Plant yield and crop quality increase as DLI increases so, for me, it's 900µmols or bust.
 
The Ca damage has spread somewhat to the top of the plant, but I think that was all in the works before I noticed the problem. I hope I've nursed it back through foliar.

I think my mistake was flooding it with Recharge/Nutrient mixture over and over. I mentioned earlier that as the mixture went through and filled up the AutoPot reservoir that I would gather it back up and reapply into another area. I was put it back into the coco wherever the surface still had dry material. I think "bright idea" may have smothered the roots and helped cause the lockout.

Nonetheless, she may get mopey and sad looking as dark time appears, but she seems happy when the lights come back on.

My last grow was a disaster from lockouts. So, I thought I had been more careful. These things happen I am learning. Sometimes it is not even our fault. :cool:

That Dot you mentioned had me wondering too. It might have been from an errant nute drop. I try to catch it and dab it with a papertowel when I see it.

I am guilty of foliar spraying with the lights on (just sometimes). I never spritz PMI related sprays in the light (oil based). When I do I aim for under the leaves. Although, that is not a perfect practice.

As for the GG, when she popped it was about 4 days after the first batch. She quickly jumped ahead of the others. She is short and bushy, but I have trimmed her back to give the flower sites plenty of light. I'm not trimming anymore because half of her solar panels are partially damaged from the lockout.

I'm just going to nurse her and let her go where she goes from here.

The superstar of the tent is the Critical Purple. She is symetrical and because of that I removed everything below the 4th node.

I thought the Purple Lemonades were on the slow walked to gallows, but as soon as they overheard me talking about yanking them they perked up and #1 went into flower within a couple days. PL#2 is now in pre-flower. Wheras, the CP and GG are not there yet.

If GG does bounce back, she has a lot of small flowering sites and they are close together. So, she has the potential to make decent flowers.



Delps8 said:
Thought I'd poke my nose in…

I've done a couple of GG grows (autos) using an SP 3000, though mine were in hydro (per sig block). Oh, and I use Jacks 3-2-1 but the GG's didn't need the extra Mg or S in the Epsom. Standard Jack's has a lot of both of those. I ran 3-2-0 all the way from seedling to chop and it worked out very well.

That could be calcium but what strikes me is that the blemish is a very well defined "dot", it's large relative to the leaf, and there's only one. Any chance you dropped nute water on it?

Your DLI on the GG is the same as I was using. A DLI of 40+ is a lot for a small plant but cannabis loves light. I 'm a big believer in feeding my plants well so my DLI's get into the mid-60's pretty quickly. Plant yield and crop quality increase as DLI increases so, for me, it's 900µmols or bust.
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Day 40 - Still Waiting

  • Day 40 and I'm still waiting for Flowers on GG & CP
  • I shut off the reservoir for GG to give a little Dry-Back time.
  • PL#2 has joined PL#1 in Flower.
  • Note the PLs and their height now on the support sticks.
  • Don't mind the look of the Group Shot ... It was Glamor Shot Day.

Day 40 Group Shot.jpg
 
There may not be much to the Purple Lemonades but they sure are pretty.
 
Day 43 - Final Haircut

Critical Purple and Gorilla Glue got their final haircut. Neither are in preflower yet. Well, there might be a hint of it, but enough to photograph.

I thoroghly cleaned out Critical Purple. Wheras, Gorilla Glue is just too bushy and too small. I did remove the lowest node branches, just so there could be more concentration of growth higher in the plant.

Otherwise, everything is going well. My odd-pheno Purple Lemonades are in full flower production. You can't smell them in the garage yet, but you can when you open the tent.

These pics were taken just after the lights went out with an iPhone.

I've stopped all foliar spraying of the PLs. The flowers have passed the point where I am comfortable to keep spraying.


Below: Critical Purpe (foreground) ... Gorilla Glue in background
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Below: Purple Lemonade #1 (foreground) ... Purple Lemonade #2 in background
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Below: Gorilla Glue
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Below: Purple Lemonade #2
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Below: Purple Lemonade #1
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Below: Mystery Seed ... now Seedling
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The "Mystery" seed is still in play. She just won't quit. How can I quit her?
 
Day 44 - Training Day ... But No Denzel

I have to stop pruning major leaves on Critical Purple.

She should be about ready to start Flower any day now.

Because of this I want the potential flower locations to have leaf-free access to the LEDs.

Hence, Training Day.

I also have two limbs on Purple Lemonade #2 are shaded from about. On a normal plant I would have removed this node set. However, these plants have been strange from Day 1, so I have left them mostly alone.

Gorilla Glue is a dwarfy Bonsai tree. Although, it has a ton of potential flower sites.

As you will see, Purple Lemonade #1 is a flowering fool.

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Day 45 - This Was a Hell of a Day

When I closed the tent on Day 44 everything seemed perfect.

But then Day 45.

I started a "What Do I Do Next" type thread in a different section. But for the Journal's sake I am bringing the photo into here as well.

I don't want to repeat everything, but here is the gist of I woke to:

When I opened the tent this morning, the first thing I see is Purple Lemonade #2 is not happy (photos below).

Symptoms:
  • Curl and Canoeing Leaves
  • Hyper Praying Position
  • Some leaves crunchy like paper

Diagnosis Actions:
  • Checked for soil moisture - excellent
  • Checked pH in AquaValve (AV) reservoir - 6.0
  • Checked EC in AV reservoir: WOW! It was in the low 4s EC
  • Checked EC & pH in other reservoirs all normal - all within decimal points of the master reservoir

Physical Actions:
  • Flushed the heck out of the coco with RO water
  • After 4 liters passed through I measured the Run Off water: 3.62 EC
  • After about 4 gallons passed through: EC 0.90
  • I stopped flushing

Look at PL#1 in the rear on the right. Now, scroll up and see what it looked like yesterday. Wow - fast!

Day 45 - Group Shot.JPG


Now, Let's take a closer look:

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Day 45 - PL#2 - Mid Bod Flowers.JPG


Day 45 - PL2 - Top Flower.JPG
 
Day 46 - Just Some Flower Pics

I completely cleaned and refilled the Master Reservoir.

No more Photosynthesis Plus in there and no aminos.

Those items will be special treats for the AquaValve Reservoirs. Along with things like Recharge.

What Does Go In:

• I'm going to add Cal/Mg, because of my RO Water.
• (Two Grows in a Row I have battled the Calcium Monster.)

• Mono-Silicic Acid
• Mr. Fulvic
• SLF-100 or whatever enzyme I chose in the future.
• Orca for Microbes

I'm growing with Jack's this round, but I have a Blackstrap (Gnome Genetics x Brother Mendel collab.) in the germ tent that is going to grow up on FloraFlex. I thought I would give it a try.

Enjoy the photos! I was just having fun with the camera.


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