Newbie Grower, Carmen Auto x Diva, Outdoors

[CBDMed]

Hi @Emilya !

each node's cut acts a little differently. Cutting between 4-5 give you 2 main colas and slows down the plant a little bit before it goes into maturity (alternating nodes or pistils in an Auto). The 4-5 cut give you plenty of time for nodes 1-3 to rise up to the canopy, giving you 6 additional colas going into bloom.

The 5-6 cut is right at the point of the plant becoming mature. The cut does not stop it, and you get 2 main colas, but not as much side growth will rise up to the top. This cut tends to create a taller and less producing plant than the 4-5 cut.

The 3-4 cut is very special in that it confuses the plant. This cut acts like a FIM and takes the longest to resolve.

Could you please say more about how plants react to a FIM?
You are giving me an advanced piece of information that is presently flying over my head like the planes at the airport, haha.
How do cannabis plants think?
Does it say, "Hey!! I have been FIM'ed! Now what do I do?"
And how does it resolve it?
Haha, thanks.

The plant will usually stall out while it thinks about what to do about this cut, and you can get anywhere from 2-5 colas from this single cut.

The plant becomes a philosopher for a little while?
Or what is it thinking about? (Haha.)

Depending on how this cut resolves, the plant can take on several odd shapes, but it can end up being a big producer. I don't like the uncertainty about this cut.

*"can" end up being a big producer??
(Oy...)

 

[Emilya Green]

Hi @Emilya !



Could you please say more about how plants react to a FIM?
You are giving me an advanced piece of information that is presently flying over my head like the planes at the airport, haha.
How do cannabis plants think?
Does it say, "Hey!! I have been FIM'ed! Now what do I do?"
And how does it resolve it?
Haha, thanks.



The plant becomes a philosopher for a little while?
Or what is it thinking about? (Haha.)



*"can" end up being a big producer??
(Oy...)

lol, you caught me anthropomorphizing. This is a very heavy philosophical question, if a plant is sentient, just where is its brain? Does it actually think? We know plants are aware, but can they process data and make decisions? I don't know what the process is, when FIM only puts out 2 or 3 nodes one time and then 4 another time. Same with the cut at 3-4, I have no idea why it freaks the plant out so, but it does. I used to do nothing but 3-4 cuts just to examine this, and this is the only reason that I know that sometimes you get 5 nodes from it, but why? That is a complete mystery to me.

 

[CBDMed]

lol, you caught me anthropomorphizing. This is a very heavy philosophical question, if a plant is sentient, just where is its brain? Does it actually think? We know plants are aware, but can they process data and make decisions? I don't know what the process is, when FIM only puts out 2 or 3 nodes one time and then 4 another time. Same with the cut at 3-4, I have no idea why it freaks the plant out so, but it does. I used to do nothing but 3-4 cuts just to examine this, and this is the only reason that I know that sometimes you get 5 nodes from it, but why? That is a complete mystery to me.

Hahaha, @Emilya !
Well, that is a good question! And yes, a deep one.
According to Traditional Chinese Medicine, the human microbiome ("gut") is what they call "the second brain."
I think there are other natural medical systems which think about the microbiome the same way (or very similar).
One wonders why that might be.

This is pure speculation, but is that perhaps because it is the seat of energy intake?
Or why is that?
And if there is a "seat of energy intake" in a plant (if that is even it), then where would that be??
In the roots??
And then the above-ground growth is like a hairdo?? Hahaha...

 

[CBDMed]

Does anyone have any ideas about how to pin down the Eleven Roses girls (they are by a sponsor)?
I was hoping to make node 4-5 for the cut, and they went into flower early.
They are not ready for an uppot, but I need more space to pin them down.
Anyone have any ideas?
Thank you!

 

[Emilya Green]

Start leading her on a tour around the outside edge of the cup, and before you are all the way around, it will be time to uppot.

 

[CBDMed]

Great idea. Thanks, @Emilya !

 

[Azimuth]

And, when you do up-pot, plant it against one edge of the pot so you can bend it over towards the far edge.

 

[CBDMed]

And, when you do up-pot, plant it against one edge of the pot so you can bend it over towards the far edge.

Thanks, @Azimuth . I thought about that. But won't that cramp the roots?
Turning the cormer @Emilya 's way seems to take some doing, but it seems to be working.

 

[Emilya Green]

And, when you do up-pot, plant it against one edge of the pot so you can bend it over towards the far edge.

I do that when I am working with clones, so that I have plenty of room for that first bend and then 2/3 of the container available for me to run it around the outer edge. The roots will go where they can go, and our rootballs show us how they deal with a little bit of cramping, they just fill in everywhere else. Planting on the edge is not going to slow them down one bit.

 

[CBDMed]

I do that when I am working with clones, so that I have plenty of room for that first bend and then 2/3 of the container available for me to run it around the outer edge. The roots will go where they can go, and our rootballs show us how they deal with a little bit of cramping, they just fill in everywhere else. Planting on the edge is not going to slow them down one bit.

Wow, ok, then perfect!
Thank you, @Azimuth and @Emilya !

I recently planted a bunch of seeds.
The first seeds (freebies) were out of the gate running hard, and they allowed me to snip them between nodes 4 and 5 before they went into flower.
The next two varieties (paid sponsor seeds) went into flower significantly short of 30 days!
I was hoping to get 4-5 snips on them, but the first one went LST, and the second one I am leading around the rim of the container by her nose hairs (and I will have to get more clothes hangers to cut up)!

Big sigh, I would hate to do this with 11 more plants....
I am wondering if maybe I should experiment with a bunch of snips in between nodes 3 and 4.
I understand that if you confuse it, it takes a long time to resolve, but usually ends up as a high producer.
Is it tricky? (Meaning, do you have to be Em to make it a high producer?)
Or do you just have to make it sit and consider life as a pot plant for a while, until it resolves to be the best little pot plant it can be?? Hahaha.

 

[Emilya Green]

B) Maybe I should experiment with a bunch of snips in between nodes 3 and 4.
I understand that if you confuse it, it takes a long time to resolve, but usually ends up as a high producer.
Is it tricky? (Meaning, do you have to be Em to make it a high producer?)

With my limited exposure to Autos, I cant see it being beneficial to add an additional stressor to the plant, causing it to stall out in a spot on its growth path that it wasn't planning. Its worth experimenting with I guess, but if you end up with a bunch of short low producing plants just because of that one extra 3-4 day stall, we will have a good clue as to why it happened.

 

[CBDMed]

With my limited exposure to Autos, I cant see it being beneficial to add an additional stressor to the plant, causing it to stall out in a spot on its growth path that it wasn't planning. Its worth experimenting with I guess, but if you end up with a bunch of short low producing plants just because of that one extra 3-4 day stall, we will have a good clue as to why it happened.

Ok, that is very good to know!
So I should get a lot more coat hangers, then.
(I have plenty of "normal" training hoops, but the coat hangers seem easier to use around the rim of the pot.)

 

[Emilya Green]

I prefer the hoops because I can uppot and still keep them all in place.

 

[CBDMed]

I prefer the hoops because I can uppot and still keep them all in place.

Yes, sorry. What I am trying to say is that I do have some regular hoops, and I like them a lot!
I like them much better in general, in fact.
They seem easier to work with!

Only, when you get to the edge of a Solo cup, it seems nice to have a coat hanger wire with a "shepherd's hook" on one end, to help the plant turn the corner, and lead it around the rim, because it only has one leg, and so it only destroys half the roots as compared to a normal "U" shaped hook (which has two legs, and therefore destroys twice as many roots).
(Don't mind the rust where the white paint flaked off...)

But I like to use the regular hoops when I can, because they seem easier to work with.

 

[Azimuth]

I still think you should walk before you run. Grow a simple plant so you have a baseline of what to compare future experiments to.

Try a simple LST using hoops or ties or whatever, train the plant and see what you learn and then get more creative next round. You're tying yourself up in knots trying every technique thrown your way but you have no way to know if they are better than something else and don't have the experience yet to take corrective action if needed.

Em can do these techniques blindfolded in her sleep. Doesn't mean it's that way for everyone.

Keep it simple and you can get more complicated if you want as you gain experience.

 

[CBDMed]

I still think you should walk before you run. Grow a simple plant so you have a baseline of what to compare future experiments to.

Try a simple LST using hoops or ties or whatever, train the plant and see what you learn and then get more creative next round. You're tying yourself up in knots trying every technique thrown your way but you have no way to know if they are better than something else and don't have the experience yet to take corrective action if needed.

Em can do these techniques blindfolded in her sleep. Doesn't mean it's that way for everyone.

Keep it simple and you can get more complicated if you want as you gain experience.

Well, I do get what you are saying. I am still relatively brand new. Only, the sum total of my grand strategy up to this point has been, "Try to imitate @Emilya , and try to do what she is doing."
So, she snipped her XXL auto in between nodes 4 and 5.
With the first two freebie plants (EDIT: sativa dominant), I was able to make that cut, and I am relatively very happy with how they look! They are the top row. There are many cola sites! That is what I was hoping for.
HST and hoops. Sample size: 2.

To me, HST plus hoops is clearly far-and-away the best of my existing 3 experiment runs.
I would run them all this way, except that the paid girls are going into flower wayy before 30 days, so I cannot make the 4-5 cut.

The second row (paid seeds, from sponsor) went into flower around day 25.
So, I was not able to make the 4-5 cut, and so the next best thing was to bend them over and pin them.
Only, it looks like realistically a maximum of 4 or maybe 5 tightly-placed colas per plant (maybe).
LST and hoops. Sample size: 2.

The bottom row (paid seeds from a sponsor) also went into flower about day 25, so again I was not able to make the 4-5 cut.
Em said to lead the plant around the rim, so that is what I am trying to do there.
LST and hoops. Sample size: 3.

The sample sizes are small, but at least to me, the HST yields a FAR superior result than the LST!
I would run them all as HST, but I have to figure out how to get to the 4-5 stem area before they go into flower.

And just to add, in addition to this, there are 7 + 4 more on the way.
Here are the 7. (I may pluck 1 or 2 small ones.)

So then I thought, "Well, if I cannot make the 4-5 cut, I should ask Em if I should experiment with the 3-4 cut."
So she said no.
So I won't.

Only, Em also says to do like you said, and to put the plant to one side of the pot.

So, please forgive me, but with all respect and appreciation for your help, how am I doing wrong, by trying to follow Em's instructions?
And am I doing wrong, trying to get more colas?
I am not sure what you are saying I am doing wrong. Could you please elucidate?
Thank you.

 

[Azimuth]

You're not doing anything wrong. I just don't want you to get discouraged thinking this is an overly complicated exercise. It can be a plant grown very simply to good result. True, you'll get better yields by doing some training, having a good watering approach, good nutrients, etc. But all of that is not absolutely necessary especially early on in your growing career.

I've just seen too many growers give up because it seemed too complicated because they thought they had to do too many things to nurture the plant and it turned into more work than play. It stopped being fun and turned into a chore.

A lot of us do lots of extra things because we enjoy it, but I know it can seem overwhelming to try to learn it all at the beginning. But, if you're having fun, then carry on!

 

[CBDMed]

You're not doing anything wrong. I just don't want you to get discouraged thinking this is an overly complicated exercise. It can be a plant grown very simply to good result. True, you'll get better yields by doing some training, having a good watering approach, good nutrients, etc. But all of that is not absolutely necessary especially early on in your growing career.

I've just seen too many growers give up because it seemed too complicated because they thought they had to do too many things to nurture the plant and it turned into more work than play. It stopped being fun and turned into a chore.

A lot of us do lots of extra things because we enjoy it, but I know it can seem overwhelming to try to learn it all at the beginning. But, if you're having fun, then carry on!

Thanks, @Azimuth. I appreciate the concern!
However, yes, in general I am learning a lot, and I am having fun.
(I like learning.)

Yes, I am a little frustrated by the "tiny auto" thing, but I know it will pass.
It kind of reminds me of when I first started growing. They said to veg 2 months and then flip it to flower.
So I was running small little plants, and it was like I could never get ahead.
Then when I started to veg them 4 months, I got wayy bigger plants, and wayy more than 50% increase in yield for the extra 50% increase in time.

I found some 1:1 CBD 3-4 month auto regulars from sponsors that are supposed to yield a lot more.
I am looking forward to running those, but right now we are also hoping to move soon.
Plus I have no stash, so right now I am running 60-70 day autos (dreaming that it will all work out so I can close them out right before we move...hahaha! Nice dream!).
Hopefully now that I am starting to learn what is necessary, hopefully my yields can come up, and I can start to get ahead.
Once I get ahead, then I can start running experiments with 3-4 month auto regulars, and seeds, etc.
(I just need to get ahead first.)

I see Jon and now Emilya run XXL genetics, and I am sure that would help a lot, but I don't think they have XXL in 1:1 CBD strains yet. (Probably give it a few years and they will be all over.)
I would not mind paying $15 a seed for something like that monster Emilya has! But I need 1:1.

If we can get moved, the long-term goal is to build a big greenhouse, and then run a big crop of 20 photos in the greenhouse in "summer" (with gas langtern routine), and then I can have fun playing with my autos in the "winter" (for flavor variation, haha).
In my heaviest use I used maybe 6 plants a year, so 20 plants should stock me up real good!
I just need to get by for maybe another 12-15 months, until I can get resettled, and then plant next spring, and then see the plants through until harvest.

I still need to read all of your threads, and also Em's threads about the teas.
I bought the Amendments and Jadam books today. (I am not sure when I will ever get time to read them, but at least they are on the way, haha.)
And in the mean time I think it is a really good experiment to keep trying to imitate what Em is doing.

And yes, the tiny 60-70 day non-XXL autos are a pain! But I am probably getting a lot of really good experience in the basics (which I need), and I believe the extra experience should help me a lot when I finally do get back to photos in a greenhouse!
I am sure my photo-greenhouse girls will be in a LOT better shape because of this experience, and because of your and Em's help (and the help of others).

 

[Azimuth]

Sounds like a plan. No shortage of stuff to learn. Enjoy the ride!

 

[CBDMed]

Ahh, no! I am wrong!
I looked up the Kong Superglue (freebies from a sponsor) and it is not indica dominant--it is 35% indica, 65% sativa.
Ok, so to show my ignorance, I know that satiivas grow much taller than indicas, so they must grow more quickly--but do they pass through the nodes faster also?
Or does it take the same amount of time, and the nodes are just farther apart?

I was wondering if this could account for the fact that a 65% sativa was able to be topped between nodes 4-5 before the 30 days, whereas the indica-dominant strains did not make it to node 4 before flowering.
Does it seem like there might be something there?
Or probably not? (Or not really?)