Newbie Grower, Carmen Auto x Diva, Outdoors

[Emilya Green]

So maybe use four banana peels and 1-1/3 liters of water (for a big batch)?

that sounds like a good plan

 

[Emilya Green]

I am very curious what happens here. It is my prediction that the wc batch will rot and will smell putrid at the end of the 21 days, while the peel only batch will smell like a sweet banana liqueur.

 

[CBDMed]

I am very curious what happens here. It is my prediction that the wc batch will rot and will smell putrid at the end of the 21 days, while the peel only batch will smell like a sweet banana liqueur.

@Emilya , I appreciate your scientific mindset very much.
Should I start a new thread for this experiment?
Or continue the same thread here, since it is also part of this grow?

 

[Emilya Green]

@Emilya , I appreciate your scientific mindset very much.
Should I start a new thread for this experiment?
Or continue the same thread here?

your choice... im already following here. Surely we will hear from you again before the 21 days are through. lol

 

[CBDMed]

your choice... im already following here. Surely we will hear from you again before the 21 days are through. lol

Hahahahahaha!!

Ok, I will leave it in this thread....

 

[Azimuth]

@Azimuth , great!
What is LAB?

LAB -Start here

Sounds great!!! I want to try it!!!
Do you have a tutorial page for your Jadam Banana Liquid Fertilizer?

There's not much to it. The Jadam ferments are plant material, water to cover, and a small amount of leaf mold soil (I use RWC - Red Worm Castings).

Cover and let it sit for at least a week, although the longer the better. It lasts for as long as you have it. No expration date. High nitrogen items like leafy greens will smell like something died, but the plants will love it. Your banana mixture should be more like a weak banana vinegar.

It is an anaerobic process but there is some gas exchange so allow for that with your cover, either loosely covered or burped periodically.

They don't really do leaf mold here, but I have some worm castings, and I would be happy to throw some in.
Anout how much worm castings would you use for a quart / liter?

Just enough to introduce them. Like a teaspoon or tablespoon for your quart. Really don't need much. No harm in using what you have but completely unnecessary. The end product you want is what's in the banana's, not the castings. Probably don't even really need them as the banana's will have the banana breakdown microbes already on them. Still, introducing a more diverse population of microbes seems to help things along, at least in my experiments.

I've got an experiment going now comparing RWC and LAB to break down green leafy material.

And leaf mold soil is everywhere there are leaves that are allowed to sit for a period of time. The microbes that inhabit the pile and break down the leaves are the ones you want to collect. They'll be found below the top, dried layer of leaves in the stuff that's begining to look like broken down leaves, humus or soil.

I ended up with two bottles of ORCA microbes. Would you ever add a half a teaspoon or something to the water at the start of the ferment?
Or leave that out?

I wouldn't use anything I had to spend money on. That stuff is better used for the specialized use it is intended for. Worm castings or leaf mold soil is all you need and really in very small amounts.

Ok, will do!
But do I put the lid loosely (so that it can burp itself by the overpressure)?
Or do I cover it with an old t-shirt (fake cheesecloth) and then rubber band it shut, so it can breathe?

Depending on what you are fermenting you'll probably want to contain the smell, although your banana ferment will likely be fine and smell like vinegar as it breaks down. Once it's done it stores like vinegar. No fixed shelf life.

Oh, and I forgot to ask, in addition to putting three peels and some worm castings in a jar, and then letting it sit covered for 21 days, is there a bubbler recipe I can use in the ensuing three weeks?

No need. It is used as is at 1:30 or more dilution straight into your watering can. The anerobic microbes break down the plant material making it water soluble and plant available. Bubbling, as Emilya points out, is to culture aerobic microbes to go to work in your soil breaking down soil amendments. In this process the microbes have already done their thing so no need to culture them. Plus, in a bubbling environment you'd be culturing different microbes than the ones that just broke down the plant material, so really no point in doing so.

(But just use this stuff up, and don't try to keep it?)

Definitely keep it as there is no shelf life after fermentation. The stuff just doesn't go bad. In fact it will improve with age. If you have multiple jars of the same ferment with various ages it is recommended to mix a little of the older stuff with the more recent stuff. The older stuff will be more potent.

But at the moment, I think I will stick with your and @Azimuth 's advice, and just use banana and worm castings---and if it smells good in three weeks, I will use it.
And if it doesn't smell good in three weeks, I will pour it out.

Again, no need. Bad smells do not equal bad product as they would with an aerobic mix. Since this is anaerobic, some mixes will smell pretty bad (comfrey, fish, dandelion, etc) but that does not in any way indicate it has gone bad. It'll start out that way!

Eventually it will settle into what I call a "springtime horsebarn smell" so not horrible, but also not everyone's cup of tea.

I have never put worm castings into one of my fermentations, but maybe I am missing out on something.

I did some experiments comparing leaf mold soil (LMS - which is the recommended Jadam practice) and red worm castings. The worm castings were better in many ways. Now granted, I have pretty good castings and my leaf mold soil was probably not the finest example of the stuff, but I was being true to Jadam in that I was using what was local to me. The worm castings come from my basement worm farm, and the leaf mold was from a pretty pathetic stand of neglected trees.

My castings broke down the material faster and more thoroughly than the LMS (measured by dried weight of the strainings from the jars after the process completed), was easier for me to get, is not seasonal (we have snow) and I have it in abundance.

And @Azimuth , should I use maybe THiS much worm castings for four banana peels in 1-1/3 liters (quarts) of water?
Or a different amount of WC?

See above. Maybe a tablespoon at most. Master Cho recommends a handful of leaf mold soil in a 55 gallon barrel as a reference point.

I am very curious what happens here. It is my prediction that the wc batch will rot and will smell putrid at the end of the 21 days, while the peel only batch will smell like a sweet banana liqueur.

I'll bet a banana vinegar. The worm castings will dissolve into the water but they are primarily aerobic microbes so after a prolonged swim underwater the anaerobic microbes will outcompete them.

But, no need to use all that much of them. No harm in doing so, just wasteful and I think much better used as a top dressing on your soil, but beneath a cover layer.

 

[Emilya Green]

I will also mention that my dandelion fermentation, having been stabilized with molasses, is still good after several years and opening the cap brings a strong smell of alcohol along with the sweet grassy smell. As you say, it just keeps getting better all the time.

Here is another tutorial on making LAB:

Making your own Lactobacillus Serum

The deeper I get into my studies of organic gardening, the more I find that we can do in our home gardens to greatly enhance our end results. Many of us know about compost teas, and have developed recipes for seedlings and clones, vegging plants, flowering plants and late flowering plants. We...

www.420magazine.com

 

[Azimuth]

I will also mention that my dandelion fermentation, having been stabilized with molasses, is still good after several years and opening the cap brings a strong smell of alcohol along with the sweet grassy smell. As you say, it just keeps getting better all the time.

One of these days I'm going to convince you to try comfrey in place of your dandelion.

 

[CBDMed]

LAB -Start here

@Azimuth , thank you for this. I am on a sprint right now, so I won't be able to get to this until next week at the earliest, but I bookmarked it, and will try to get to it.

There's not much to it. The Jadam ferments are plant material, water to cover, and a small amount of leaf mold soil (I use RWC - Red Worm Castings).

Cover and let it sit for at least a week, although the longer the better. It lasts for as long as you have it. No expration date. High nitrogen items like leafy greens will smell like something died, but the plants will love it. Your banana mixture should be more like a weak banana vinegar.

It is an anaerobic process but there is some gas exchange so allow for that with your cover, either loosely covered or burped periodically.

Cool. Thanks!

Just enough to introduce them. Like a teaspoon or tablespoon for your quart. Really don't need much. No harm in using what you have but completely unnecessary. The end product you want is what's in the banana's, not the castings. Probably don't even really need them as the banana's will have the banana breakdown microbes already on them. Still, introducing a more diverse population of microbes seems to help things along, at least in my experiments.

Ok, thank you. Yes, I speak "Maximization on a Budget."

I put back all but a Tbl of the WC in the one container.
I added two coca leaves to each container (for giggles).
We had five bananas and so we added three plantain (cooking banana) peels.
We tried to divide them equally between each jar.
Covered with water that has been sitting out for about two days.

I've got an experiment going now comparing RWC and LAB to break down green leafy material.

And leaf mold soil is everywhere there are leaves that are allowed to sit for a period of time. The microbes that inhabit the pile and break down the leaves are the ones you want to collect. They'll be found below the top, dried layer of leaves in the stuff that's begining to look like broken down leaves, humus or soil.

Yeah, thank you. I appreciate what you are telling me.
I think if I go to the pueblo, or one of the rainy areas, they have that kind of forest floor cover. I can try to bring some back the next time I go there (probably later this week).
Do I throw a Tbl of that in also?
Or is it best to start everything together?

I wouldn't use anything I had to spend money on. That stuff is better used for the specialized use it is intended for. Worm castings or leaf mold soil is all you need and really in very small amounts.

Cool. Thank you.

Depending on what you are fermenting you'll probably want to contain the smell, although your banana ferment will likely be fine and smell like vinegar as it breaks down. Once it's done it stores like vinegar. No fixed shelf life.

Ok, it is under the stairwell to the roof right now. No direct light, but not really dark. Is that ok?

No need. It is used as is at 1:30 or more dilution straight into your watering can. The anerobic microbes break down the plant material making it water soluble and plant available. Bubbling, as Emilya points out, is to culture aerobic microbes to go to work in your soil breaking down soil amendments. In this process the microbes have already done their thing so no need to culture them. Plus, in a bubbling environment you'd be culturing different microbes than the ones that just broke down the plant material, so really no point in doing so.

Cool. Good to know. Thank you.

Definitely keep it as there is no shelf life after fermentation. The stuff just doesn't go bad. In fact it will improve with age. If you have multiple jars of the same ferment with various ages it is recommended to mix a little of the older stuff with the more recent stuff. The older stuff will be more potent.

¡Excelente!

Again, no need. Bad smells do not equal bad product as they would with an aerobic mix. Since this is anaerobic, some mixes will smell pretty bad (comfrey, fish, dandelion, etc) but that does not in any way indicate it has gone bad. It'll start out that way!

Eventually it will settle into what I call a "springtime horsebarn smell" so not horrible, but also not everyone's cup of tea.

Ok, perfect. Thank you.

I did some experiments comparing leaf mold soil (LMS - which is the recommended Jadam practice) and red worm castings. The worm castings were better in many ways. Now granted, I have pretty good castings and my leaf mold soil was probably not the finest example of the stuff, but I was being true to Jadam in that I was using what was local to me. The worm castings come from my basement worm farm, and the leaf mold was from a pretty pathetic stand of neglected trees.

My castings broke down the material faster and more thoroughly than the LMS (measured by dried weight of the strainings from the jars after the process completed), was easier for me to get, is not seasonal (we have snow) and I have it in abundance.


See above. Maybe a tablespoon at most. Master Cho recommends a handful of leaf mold soil in a 55 gallon barrel as a reference point.


I'll bet a banana vinegar. The worm castings will dissolve into the water but they are primarily aerobic microbes so after a prolonged swim underwater the anaerobic microbes will outcompete them.

But, no need to use all that much of them. No harm in doing so, just wasteful.

Fabulous, @Azimuth . Thank you!
Just to verify, you don't add any sugars to this mix at all?
No molasses?

Great info there!
I will probably be composting that information for a while, haha.

 

[CBDMed]

I will also mention that my dandelion fermentation, having been stabilized with molasses, is still good after several years and opening the cap brings a strong smell of alcohol along with the sweet grassy smell. As you say, it just keeps getting better all the time.

Here is another tutorial on making LAB:

Making your own Lactobacillus Serum

The deeper I get into my studies of organic gardening, the more I find that we can do in our home gardens to greatly enhance our end results. Many of us know about compost teas, and have developed recipes for seedlings and clones, vegging plants, flowering plants and late flowering plants. We...

www.420magazine.com

Thank you, @Emilya .
I am on a big sprint right now, so I will have to get to the link after the weekend, but I bookmarked it, and hope to read it twice.

I asked @Azimuth about molasses, so we will see what he says.

I have seen dandelions and wild lettuce inside the compound, but I have not seen any on unpolluted soil (and there was one man spraying Roundup again this morning, so I try to be careful).
I will look for seeds, so I can grow some clean myself.
Dandelions are a great plant!

 

[CBDMed]

One of these days I'm going to convince you to try comfrey in place of your dandelion.

@Azimuth, does it have to be fresh?
I have a bag of dried organic comfrey here.
Will that work?

(And do I add it to the banana tea?
Or make separate?)

 

[Azimuth]

I added two coca leaves to each container (for giggles).

Yeah, take those out. You want a specialized flowering amendment here, not some mish mash of various things. Coca flowers? Fine, but not the leaves.

You can combine things when you go to apply them but right now you want individualized mixes that give you greater flexibility down the road.

Ok, it is under the stairwell to the roof right now. No direct light, but not really dark. Is that ok?

Should be fine. I keep mine out of direct sunlight, but Master Cho does his out in the fields, but in an opaque container.

Just to verify, you don't add any sugars to this mix at all?
No molasses?

Don't over think this. Plant material, water to cover, and some added mocrobes. That's it.

Some of the ferments (LAB, Fermented Plant Juices (FPJ)) can be "put to sleep" for long term storage with the addition of an equal amount of sugars but that's after you've made them.

@Azimuth, does it have to be fresh?
I have a bag of dried organic comfrey here.
Will that work?

I've been drying mine for storage and it works great! When I'm ready to use them I mix them with an equal amount of fresh worm cstings and then apply it as a top dress.

(And do I add it to the banana tea?
Or make separate?)

By keeping it separate you then have the option of mixing and matching different inputs based on what your plants need at the time. So keep them separate when you make them, but you can combine different ones when you apply them.

 

[CBDMed]

Yeah, take those out. You want a specialized flowering amendment here, not some mish mash of various things. Coca flowers? Fine, but not the leaves.

You can combine things when you go to apply them but right now you want individualized mixes that give you greater flexibility down the road.

Okay. Got it. Thanks.

Should be fine. I keep mine out of direct sunlight, but Master Cho does his out in the fields, but in an opaque container.

Bien.

Don't over think this. Plant material, water to cover, and some added mocrobes. That's it.

Hahahaha! Direct hit!
Ow!!
Hahaha.

Some of the ferments (LAB, Fermented Plant Juices (FPJ)) can be "put to sleep" for long term storage with the addition of an equal amount of sugars but that's after you've made them.

Ok, got it.
Thanks.

I've been drying mine for storage and it works great! When I'm ready to use them I mix them with an equal amount of fresh worm cstings and then apply it as a top dress.

Ok, so could I rehydrate some pieces,
and then remove the worm casting layer I just put on,
And then mix in the comfrey pieces, and re-apply the worm casting mix as before?

By keeping it separate you then have the option of mixing and matching different inputs based on what your plants need at the time. So keep them separate when you make them, but you can combine different ones when you apply them.

Excellent.
Thank you, @Azimuth .

 

[Azimuth]

Ok, so could I rehydrate some pieces,
and then remove the worm casting layer I just put on,
And then mix in the comfrey pieces, and re-apply the worm casting mix as before?

Depending on how big your pieces are, I suppose. Mine were dried and crushed into very small pieces so I just mixed them, dry, with fresh worm castings and applied that.

 

[CBDMed]

Depending on how big your pieces are, I suppose. Mine were dried and crushed into very small piece so I just mixed them, dry, with fresh worm castings and applied that.

Thank you, @Azimuth .
I can run them through a wheat grinder (spinning blade kind) if that would help. (I killed the coffee grinder, haha.)
Or I can soak them first (because right now they are bone dry).
Or both.

This is the size of the pieces. I have huge paws, but that should give you an idea.
Thank you for your advice.

 

[Azimuth]

Them's be roots. When you rehydrate them they will turn into a gel which is good for making compresses to help heal injuries, but probably not for your plants. (Though I don't really know as I've never used the roots for top dressings.)

I'm talking about the comfrey leaves. They have great NPK that will benefit your plants.

 

[CBDMed]

PS, what specifically do you use comfrey for?

And also, if worm castings are so good, should I mix perhaps an extra 10% by weight right into the boutique soil mix that I put into the containers? And then that way it is right there to add the right microbes to the soil?
Or is that not the right way to think?
Because if I recall, doesn't Clack rely a lot on worm castings?
If I recall, isn't it 1/3 CSPM, 1/3 aeration, and 1/3 WC?

I think I remember what I used to do.
I think I used to put Subcool's in the bottom 1/3 or 1/2 of the pot, and then I mixed maybe 10% WC in with the bagged pot soil I used to buy at Home Depot, just to make it richer. (I jokingly called it, "modified Clack", and said I had "Modified Clack over Subcool's").
I dunno why, but I never had a plant not take off. And once I went to Modified Clack over Subcool's, they were all great big beautiful girls, and they all got frosty.
And I didn't even know to add molasses or anything back then. Back then I just added RO water, topped them, and then waited for things to turn amber.
So all of that makes me wonder, should I maybe try mixing 10% WC in with the boutique soil, to see if that gives the girls any more get up and go?
Because if the plants live on the bacteria poop, and the bacteria go crazy for worm poo, then could it help to put 10% WC back in the growing mix, like I used to do?

Could it hurt??

Or do you suspect some other factor?

 

[CBDMed]

Them's be roots. When you rehydrate them they will turn into a gel which is good for making compresses to help heal injuries, but probably not for your plants. (Though I don't really know as I've never used the roots for top dressings.)

I'm talking about the comfrey leaves. They have great NPK that will benefit your plants.

Ahhh.........
Ok, well, hopefully we will be able to harvest some fresh leaves someday soon, once we can find a place and get all settled in.
Thanks, @Azimuth .

 

[Azimuth]

PS, what specifically do you use comfrey for?

It's a great, balanced fertilizer of the main elements (NPK). Can't use it by itself for our plants because it's low in most of the other things like calcium, magnesium, sulfer, etc. But a great starting point.

And also, if worm castings are so good, should I mix perhaps an extra 10% by weight right into the boutique soil mix that I put into the containers? And then that way it is right there to add the right microbes to the soil?

I use mine at 6.25% of my mix. They will dissolve over time providing space for roots. They can be quite dense however, so don't go overboard, but your 10% would likely work great!

Because if I recall, doesn't Clack rely a lot on worm castings?
If I recall, isn't it 1/3 CSPM, 1/3 aeration, and 1/3 WC?

The last third is compost, only a part of which should be castings. The compost is less broken down so provides a longer term source of nutrients. That's why I periodically top dress with additional castings, to keep the microherd topped up.

 

[CBDMed]

It's a great, balanced fertilizer of the main elements (NPK). Can't use it by itself for our plants because it's low in most of the other things like calcium, magnesium, sulfer, etc. But a great starting point.


I use mine at 6.25% of my mix. They will dissolve over time providing space for roots. They can be quite dense however, so don't go overboard, but your 10% would likely work great!


The last third is compost, only a part of which should be castings. The compost is less broken down so provides a longer term source of nutrients. That's why I periodically top dress with additional castings, to keep the microherd topped up.

@Azimuth , thank you. That is very helpful.
Life settled down enough that I could resubscribe to @Emilya 's Coffee Shop thread, and I am glad for it. That way I can try to emulate her technique.

Long story short, I just pulled the plug on some 100% 30:1 CBD plants that looked stunted. I wondered if it was from cold (because it was colder, and I did not have doors on the greenhouse). (And now I have doors, almost).
So now I have four open cups.
I mixed maybe 10% worm castings into the soil, and reloaded the cups, just tapping it to settle it (and not packing it). I hope this will show me if the added bacterial boost helps.
I am hoping that you and Em can help me figure out what I need to change.

The CalMag is not here yet.
Subcools will not be ready for another month at least, and I probably won't see the GeoFlora for another two months, but this time I will try to give the plants the Veganics Grow formula from the time the first real leaves appear.
That way, hopefully they can get some proper nutrition right from the start.

About seeds, I did not want to clog up Em's Coffee Shop thread, so I thought I would comment here instead.
I am a total novice, but I usually do ok with the seeds (not great, but pretty ok). I think there are many different ways, and they are all equally good, so long as they work for you. Is that wrong?
(When I first started growing, I was told the soak the seeds in water for five minutes, and then bury them 1/2" down [3x the diameter of the seed], and then water them just enough to keep the surface moist.
That worked, and now I am a little surprised, because now everyone says to soak them for 12 hours!
So I wonder how it could have worked only to soak them for five minutes, and then keep them moist, but it kind of seems like that is what happens in nature, is that the seeds fall on the ground, maybe they get covered up a little, and you get a rain. So I think many ways can work.
Later I went to Root Riot organic grow plugs, which I loved, but you cannot get them here. They are CSPM. They hold the water close to the seed really well, so the plug stays moist, and then as soon as she pops, she can find soil outside the CPSM. (I would keep using them, but I only have 50 or so left, and I am saving them while I try other techniques).

I guess because I am practicing technique, I thought I would try using some freebie seeds that just came with the last order (so I can nail my technique before I put too many more $10 seeds in the ground).
There were four seeds. Three of them looked pretty good, and one was a little faded, so I thought I would try the paper towel method.
That way, if the seeds do not pop, I can crack others.
(If a Root Riot plug does not work, you can always cut or tear it open, remove the old seed and try again, but I wanted to try burying them directly in the soil once they hatch, so I can try to parallel Em's grow as much as I can. I hope I am making sense.)

I usually do ok with tweezer transplanting. The concept makes sense. You just have to be careful.

The freebie seeds are 4 Kong Super Glue Autos.
They don't give too many details, but they are Sativa dominant (which will be a nice change).

Kong Super Glue from LSA Seeds are Sativa-dominant autoflowering seeds. It is a version of the famous Gorilla Glue, one of the most powerful commercial varieties. To fix the autoflowering gene, Gorilla Glue was crossed with Super Auto, resulting in a discreet, easy to grow and resistant plant. Its buds are very compact and sticky, with a tasty touch of acid fruits, a creamy aroma and an aftertaste of pine and earth. The effects are powerful due to its high concentration of THC and with a very relaxing finish.

Characteristics Kong Super Glue​

• Gorilla Glue x Super Auto
• 35% Indica / 65% Sativa
• THC 24%
• Flowering from 60 to 65 days
• Medium / high performance

I have some other strains I want to plant, if I can nail the technique first.
I halfway expect the fade one not to fire, but as they crack open and show a good tail, I will try to bury them, and help them get started.
It did not say how big they get, but I think with Em's up-potting technique, it really should not matter. I will just try to follow her instructions as best I can, and up-pot them when they drink everything down in 2 days or less. And then we will see how big of a pot we need!

I know that you two know way more than I do, so I am very grateful for any and all comments.
Thank you!