- Thread starter
- #21
jayvollmer
Well-Known Member
Thank you
New guy on the board
- Thread starter jayvollmer
- Start date
to the forum 
- Thread starter
- #22
jayvollmer
Well-Known Member
This is my blue dream clone just 2 days after topping and let me tell you she has bushed out like crazy since then this is all new to me with cannibus and I wanted to share my excitement with everyone she is the only plant I've got growing outside
She's looking great buddyThis is my blue dream clone just 2 days after topping and let me tell you she has bushed out like crazy since then this is all new to me with cannibus and I wanted to share my excitement with everyone she is the only plant I've got growing outside
she's recovered well and ready to go 
- Thread starter
- #24
jayvollmer
Well-Known Member
I agree I decided to use her top to try cloning I don't have anything fancy but I did have some root hormone powder so we shall see what happens
Trump
Well-Known Member
Welcome to 420 @jayvollmer
Plants look good. I'm going to a post a post from another site that I thought was very informative in regard to watering, media choice and pot sizing. It answered a lot of questions that I had but never really got a definitive answer to. Hopefully it can help you too.
This will be a long read based on my personal knowledge, opinions, research and others work to consolidate information for our members. I'm not presenting my opinions as facts so take from this what you like. I will be putting it in subsection format for easy reference.
First, I want to make an important point to take into consideration before reading. The tap root will grow directly downwards to the bottom of the container before spreading out.
PERCHED WATER TABLE
What is it?
The perched water table is basically the height of the saturation zone where capillary action and gravity cancel each other out. This area will be saturated with water and will be responsible most growers' issues with watering practices especially in soil grows.
WHAT IS CAPILLARY ACTION
CAPILLARY action is the combination of the cohesive and adhesive properties of water.
In short adhesion is water clinging to the media (think of it like wicking or soaking up)
Cohesion is where the water clings to itself.
So as the water is wicked up (adhesion) it pulls more water with it through Cohesion and at the point gravity and these properties cancel each other out is the perched water table.
This perched water table will always remain the SAME HEIGHT and will always stay saturated unless taken up by the plants or evaporates when the pot dries out. No matter the container height, depth or volume of media. So, if a tall skinny container had a perched water table of 1" then a short wide one of the same media will also have a perched water table of 1". Which means the ratio of water to air in a wide pot will be higher than a tall skinny pot which will have a higher air to water ratio... keep this in mind as we get further.
Different media's have different perched water tables. A more absorbent media will have a higher perched water table than a less absorbent media... REMEMBER THIS as it makes a big difference on pot selection for your media.
DIFFERENT MEDIA
Water holding capacity is directly related to the height of the perched water table so soils with more clay or silt and less sand will have a higher perched water table than those with more sand because sand is a larger particle.
The larger the overall particles of the media the lower the perched water table and better the drainage.
By adding things like perlite or vermiculite (while vermiculite is good at absorbing water it also improves drainage so it's helpful in keeping a more even level of moisture throughout the media while increasing drainage due to its size we can lower the perched water table by reducing the wicking (adhesion) ability and creating more space between particles overall reducing the cohesion effect and, in turn, the height of the perched water table.
Media like peat based or coco have a much higher drainage and lower perched water table than soil and are therefore less susceptible to over watering but will require more frequent watering due to the lower water holding capacity.
Adding things like perlite or hydroton to the bottom of the pots will NOT reduce the water table but instead raise it. This is because as I said the height of the water table will not change for a given media. So, if you add things like that to the bottom you are essentially just moving the water table up.
Basically, the larger the particles IN the media the better drainage and lower the water table.
If you want to see the height of your perched water table use a clear cup with drain holes fill with media and saturate it. Wait a few hrs for drainage and then come back and look. You can see the difference in the varying media's if you want to experiment.
If you feel you have over watered or your perched water table height is too high, you can simply tilt your pot on a 45 degree angle and release more water from the media as runoff. To help visualize think of it this way if you have a perched water table of 2”. You can draw an imaginary horizontal line at that height, when you tilt the pot you have less media below that line and therefore you will have less water in the pot after tilting it.
POT SIZE
I have already covered this a bit but my opinion is if you are using a media with a higher water table you will benefit from taller narrower pots and if using a media with a lower perched water table the shorter wider ones may benefit you depending on your watering practices.
I prefer the taller over wider no matter the media as I choose to water often and have a higher air holding capacity and lower water table but that can work against you if you can't water as frequently and as plants grow it can greatly increase the frequency required as the roots will be pulling the water out of that saturation zone quickly. So, you may want to use taller pots for small plants and transplant into a wider one as they grow.
You also don't want a pot that's too tall and the top portion of the media is drying out to fast while the bottom is wet.
Let's use seedlings as an example take a solo cup or a large container... the water table will be the same height in either. I see so often ppl trying to water a tiny bit in circles or mist the surface and for lack of other words IT DRIVES ME NUTS. Why because the roots are so shallow they are not at risk of being over watered. Remember though tap roots grow straight down so we to be mindful as they grow depending on the gas exchange of the media that the majority of roots are not sitting in the saturated zone with poor gas exchange because this will cause lack of oxygen that we incorrectly refer to as overwatering which is actually the cause not the symptom.
It's important to fill containers to the top to give us a good amount of space above the perched water table that high in o2. If you fill a solo cup halfway with soil it's likely to be sitting in the saturation zone and will not do well.
Also going to make the point that plants will be most susceptible to overwatering when the roots first hit the bottom and spread out until they fill the bottom and start moving back up out of the saturation zone. So, again, it may be more beneficial to use a taller narrow pot for the early stages of growth (2-4 weeks depending on growth) and transplant into a wider pot as you go. After the transplant almost all of the roots will be above the saturation zone and it becomes much harder to over water. New roots will again work their way down into the saturation zone but you will have plenty above so it's less likely to over water and why up potting as you go I see as a benefit instead of starting in a large wide container.
POT MATERIAL
Some prefer plastic others fabric, air pots etc.
This can affect the perched water table by evaporation as the lager the exposed surface area the more evaporation that occurs from the media in say fabric pots. This imo has a few benefits.... slightly reducing the perched water table but more so the exposure for gas exchange that's happening and that's a good thing for o2 levels in the root zone that I feel are directly related to growth rates and I'll explain why going a bit off topic for a second.
It's no coincidence that the fastest growing media's have the highest amounts of o2 and gas exchange.... for eg aeroponics have unlimited to rich o2 and water. Hydro similar with slightly less o2, soilless media's such as coco and I would possibly include peat and, last, soil. If you notice they are in order of growth rates and it's not hard to see the difference in their air holding capacity in that order and the fact that larger particles also have a better gas exchange rate. This is important because the plants take in oxygen and expel co2 in the rootzone as do the microbes on top of that so good gas exchange is important for both.
Just a note... air pruning has nothing to do with the benefits of fabric pots all it does is signal the roots to grow in a different direction.
But let's get back on topic of watering and how it's affected.
TEMPERATURE AND HUMIDITY
The warmer the temps the more evaporation occurs.
The lower your humidity the more evaporation occurs
The more surface area exposed to air movement (wind) the more evaporation.
Think those don't need an explanation. But the difference in pot material coupled with these environmental factors will have an impact on your watering needs.
The temperature of the media not only affects evaporation but also directly affect the temperature of the plant and leaf temps. This has a large impact on nutrient uptake and transportation.
First let me say that this next part is opinion, and I will give my reasoning for my opinions. With the exception of hydro (leaving this part out as this post is about watering not hydro) roots like to be about the same temperature as the leaves contrary to what's talked about from many prominent growers in the industry but not all like Dr. Bruce Bugbee. IMO ideal root temps are the same as ideal leaf temps and overall plant temps especially since the root temps have a large impact on the plant and leaf temps. What are ideal temps imo and many studies show that leaf temps (NOT AIR TEMPS) of around 77f/25C are most efficient. So how does a cool rootzone impact the plants negatively? Well, it's two fold because of the cool temps the viscosity (measurement of flow rate) of the sap will decrease so its harder for the plant to move the nutrients through the plant. The other is absorption and one fact is that in a cooler rootzone the concentration of nutrients is higher (but aqua you just said it slows absorption) well it does as the nutrients build up in the roots it can absorb less and this has a direct impact negatively on the plant. It may appear to be overwatered because the plant is now struggling to take up and use oxygen. Add that to the slowed transpiration rates and you have the same symtom many refer to overwatering which againnos lack of o2. Now take a cold rootzone where the plants slow water uptake and then add the saturation zone to it and you can see the road to correction and recover is a long one and can have huge impact on growth and yields.
So, get your pots up off the floor
WET AND DRY CYCLES
in soil and peat with higher water tables or with wider pots or combination of wet and dry cycles are important. This is to allow the dry back (including the uptake of water from the saturation zone) to prevent symptoms of over watering and help with o2 levels. Remember the majority of roots will end up in the saturation zone with these media's or with wider pots. Which can become depleted of o2 quickly as gas exchange is lower in water and media made up of smaller particles. This is where pot size and shape are important for the size of plant. You have a small plant in large container and there is no way it can take up enough of the water in the saturation zone fast enough to get air exposure in a media that has low gas exchange and majority of the roots. So, it's important to choose a pot size that will allow for this. It's also why using the finger method to gage watering is poor and lifting the pots is much better... when they are light you know they have taken up a good portion of the saturation zone and are ready to be watered again.
This is much less of an issue when using soiless like coco or peat/perlite.
Plants look good. I'm going to a post a post from another site that I thought was very informative in regard to watering, media choice and pot sizing. It answered a lot of questions that I had but never really got a definitive answer to. Hopefully it can help you too.
This will be a long read based on my personal knowledge, opinions, research and others work to consolidate information for our members. I'm not presenting my opinions as facts so take from this what you like. I will be putting it in subsection format for easy reference.
First, I want to make an important point to take into consideration before reading. The tap root will grow directly downwards to the bottom of the container before spreading out.
PERCHED WATER TABLE
What is it?
The perched water table is basically the height of the saturation zone where capillary action and gravity cancel each other out. This area will be saturated with water and will be responsible most growers' issues with watering practices especially in soil grows.
WHAT IS CAPILLARY ACTION
CAPILLARY action is the combination of the cohesive and adhesive properties of water.
In short adhesion is water clinging to the media (think of it like wicking or soaking up)
Cohesion is where the water clings to itself.
So as the water is wicked up (adhesion) it pulls more water with it through Cohesion and at the point gravity and these properties cancel each other out is the perched water table.
This perched water table will always remain the SAME HEIGHT and will always stay saturated unless taken up by the plants or evaporates when the pot dries out. No matter the container height, depth or volume of media. So, if a tall skinny container had a perched water table of 1" then a short wide one of the same media will also have a perched water table of 1". Which means the ratio of water to air in a wide pot will be higher than a tall skinny pot which will have a higher air to water ratio... keep this in mind as we get further.
Different media's have different perched water tables. A more absorbent media will have a higher perched water table than a less absorbent media... REMEMBER THIS as it makes a big difference on pot selection for your media.
DIFFERENT MEDIA
Water holding capacity is directly related to the height of the perched water table so soils with more clay or silt and less sand will have a higher perched water table than those with more sand because sand is a larger particle.
The larger the overall particles of the media the lower the perched water table and better the drainage.
By adding things like perlite or vermiculite (while vermiculite is good at absorbing water it also improves drainage so it's helpful in keeping a more even level of moisture throughout the media while increasing drainage due to its size we can lower the perched water table by reducing the wicking (adhesion) ability and creating more space between particles overall reducing the cohesion effect and, in turn, the height of the perched water table.
Media like peat based or coco have a much higher drainage and lower perched water table than soil and are therefore less susceptible to over watering but will require more frequent watering due to the lower water holding capacity.
Adding things like perlite or hydroton to the bottom of the pots will NOT reduce the water table but instead raise it. This is because as I said the height of the water table will not change for a given media. So, if you add things like that to the bottom you are essentially just moving the water table up.
Basically, the larger the particles IN the media the better drainage and lower the water table.
If you want to see the height of your perched water table use a clear cup with drain holes fill with media and saturate it. Wait a few hrs for drainage and then come back and look. You can see the difference in the varying media's if you want to experiment.
If you feel you have over watered or your perched water table height is too high, you can simply tilt your pot on a 45 degree angle and release more water from the media as runoff. To help visualize think of it this way if you have a perched water table of 2”. You can draw an imaginary horizontal line at that height, when you tilt the pot you have less media below that line and therefore you will have less water in the pot after tilting it.
POT SIZE
I have already covered this a bit but my opinion is if you are using a media with a higher water table you will benefit from taller narrower pots and if using a media with a lower perched water table the shorter wider ones may benefit you depending on your watering practices.
I prefer the taller over wider no matter the media as I choose to water often and have a higher air holding capacity and lower water table but that can work against you if you can't water as frequently and as plants grow it can greatly increase the frequency required as the roots will be pulling the water out of that saturation zone quickly. So, you may want to use taller pots for small plants and transplant into a wider one as they grow.
You also don't want a pot that's too tall and the top portion of the media is drying out to fast while the bottom is wet.
Let's use seedlings as an example take a solo cup or a large container... the water table will be the same height in either. I see so often ppl trying to water a tiny bit in circles or mist the surface and for lack of other words IT DRIVES ME NUTS. Why because the roots are so shallow they are not at risk of being over watered. Remember though tap roots grow straight down so we to be mindful as they grow depending on the gas exchange of the media that the majority of roots are not sitting in the saturated zone with poor gas exchange because this will cause lack of oxygen that we incorrectly refer to as overwatering which is actually the cause not the symptom.
It's important to fill containers to the top to give us a good amount of space above the perched water table that high in o2. If you fill a solo cup halfway with soil it's likely to be sitting in the saturation zone and will not do well.
Also going to make the point that plants will be most susceptible to overwatering when the roots first hit the bottom and spread out until they fill the bottom and start moving back up out of the saturation zone. So, again, it may be more beneficial to use a taller narrow pot for the early stages of growth (2-4 weeks depending on growth) and transplant into a wider pot as you go. After the transplant almost all of the roots will be above the saturation zone and it becomes much harder to over water. New roots will again work their way down into the saturation zone but you will have plenty above so it's less likely to over water and why up potting as you go I see as a benefit instead of starting in a large wide container.
POT MATERIAL
Some prefer plastic others fabric, air pots etc.
This can affect the perched water table by evaporation as the lager the exposed surface area the more evaporation that occurs from the media in say fabric pots. This imo has a few benefits.... slightly reducing the perched water table but more so the exposure for gas exchange that's happening and that's a good thing for o2 levels in the root zone that I feel are directly related to growth rates and I'll explain why going a bit off topic for a second.
It's no coincidence that the fastest growing media's have the highest amounts of o2 and gas exchange.... for eg aeroponics have unlimited to rich o2 and water. Hydro similar with slightly less o2, soilless media's such as coco and I would possibly include peat and, last, soil. If you notice they are in order of growth rates and it's not hard to see the difference in their air holding capacity in that order and the fact that larger particles also have a better gas exchange rate. This is important because the plants take in oxygen and expel co2 in the rootzone as do the microbes on top of that so good gas exchange is important for both.
Just a note... air pruning has nothing to do with the benefits of fabric pots all it does is signal the roots to grow in a different direction.
But let's get back on topic of watering and how it's affected.
TEMPERATURE AND HUMIDITY
The warmer the temps the more evaporation occurs.
The lower your humidity the more evaporation occurs
The more surface area exposed to air movement (wind) the more evaporation.
Think those don't need an explanation. But the difference in pot material coupled with these environmental factors will have an impact on your watering needs.
The temperature of the media not only affects evaporation but also directly affect the temperature of the plant and leaf temps. This has a large impact on nutrient uptake and transportation.
First let me say that this next part is opinion, and I will give my reasoning for my opinions. With the exception of hydro (leaving this part out as this post is about watering not hydro) roots like to be about the same temperature as the leaves contrary to what's talked about from many prominent growers in the industry but not all like Dr. Bruce Bugbee. IMO ideal root temps are the same as ideal leaf temps and overall plant temps especially since the root temps have a large impact on the plant and leaf temps. What are ideal temps imo and many studies show that leaf temps (NOT AIR TEMPS) of around 77f/25C are most efficient. So how does a cool rootzone impact the plants negatively? Well, it's two fold because of the cool temps the viscosity (measurement of flow rate) of the sap will decrease so its harder for the plant to move the nutrients through the plant. The other is absorption and one fact is that in a cooler rootzone the concentration of nutrients is higher (but aqua you just said it slows absorption) well it does as the nutrients build up in the roots it can absorb less and this has a direct impact negatively on the plant. It may appear to be overwatered because the plant is now struggling to take up and use oxygen. Add that to the slowed transpiration rates and you have the same symtom many refer to overwatering which againnos lack of o2. Now take a cold rootzone where the plants slow water uptake and then add the saturation zone to it and you can see the road to correction and recover is a long one and can have huge impact on growth and yields.
So, get your pots up off the floor
WET AND DRY CYCLES
in soil and peat with higher water tables or with wider pots or combination of wet and dry cycles are important. This is to allow the dry back (including the uptake of water from the saturation zone) to prevent symptoms of over watering and help with o2 levels. Remember the majority of roots will end up in the saturation zone with these media's or with wider pots. Which can become depleted of o2 quickly as gas exchange is lower in water and media made up of smaller particles. This is where pot size and shape are important for the size of plant. You have a small plant in large container and there is no way it can take up enough of the water in the saturation zone fast enough to get air exposure in a media that has low gas exchange and majority of the roots. So, it's important to choose a pot size that will allow for this. It's also why using the finger method to gage watering is poor and lifting the pots is much better... when they are light you know they have taken up a good portion of the saturation zone and are ready to be watered again.
This is much less of an issue when using soiless like coco or peat/perlite.
- Thread starter
- #26
jayvollmer
Well-Known Member
Great information I'm familiar with quite a bit of what you're talking about. I typically choose my pot size according to the plant. I like a pot big enough for good root quality. Typically when I transplant I aim for the center point of the pots depth to place my roots. My reasoning for this is so the roots are deep enough to keep the plant stable and also so they have plenty of room to stretch out. Root health and quality is just as important as the plant itself and healthy roots can actually be a huge determining factor for how a plant can tolerate all sorts of situations. The cool thing about the water table is that it works pretty much the same whether the plant is in a pot or in the ground. Physics are very interesting. I do like coconut soil and I prefer to use it with most plants from seed up until I know I've got good healthy plants established with plentiful healthy roots. Once it's ready for transplant I find that a good organic compost soil does the best. I don't give 2 shits about whose name is on the damn bag either I know good dirt when I see it and so does anybody else who knows what they're doing. Good dirts good dirt period. You can't go wrong I stay away from that miracle grow bull shit though those chemicals are designed to kill plants in my opinion. Call it a conspiracy theory or just a theory but I just don't trust it. I actually use the water from our mini split and our dehumidifier to water all of our plants with since we have chlorinated tap water where we live it works great and it's as pure as it can be. No particulates or chemicals it's basically rain water. I've heard that so.e growers will use the coconut soil throughout a Marijuana plants entire lifecycle. I've considered this idea but only out of curiosity. I do think that it would be a little more challenging and require a little more maintenance. But it's a very pure growth medium which is why I'm curious about it. I'm thinking it would increase bud quality and potency. I have no idea but theoretically it makes sense. What are your thoughts?
Trump
Well-Known Member
I've seen many growers grow from seed to harvest in strictly coco. It's done regularly so I don't think there is anything that would prevent you from doing that or a reason not to. One negative it does have is it doesn't hold onto magnesium very well so it can be prone to magnesium deficiencies unless you are supplementing on a regular basis.
I agree MG soil is crap for indoor growing. I don't like ANY soils that have any sort of time release fertilizers in them. I know that many prefer using powdered ferts but I classify those together with time release fertilizers that are already in the soil. I've seen some grow with success outdoors with MG due to its water holding capacity and the higher outdoor evaporation rates letting it dry back enough to keep weed roots happy but indoors it sucks!
I've also used condensate to water my plants. I've had a few people tell me not to use it as it could contain heavy metals from the internals of the dehumidifier but it didn't seem to affect the plants at all and worked well for refilling the reservoir when I've had to leave for a period of time and run the tent on an auto irrigation system.
I agree MG soil is crap for indoor growing. I don't like ANY soils that have any sort of time release fertilizers in them. I know that many prefer using powdered ferts but I classify those together with time release fertilizers that are already in the soil. I've seen some grow with success outdoors with MG due to its water holding capacity and the higher outdoor evaporation rates letting it dry back enough to keep weed roots happy but indoors it sucks!
I've also used condensate to water my plants. I've had a few people tell me not to use it as it could contain heavy metals from the internals of the dehumidifier but it didn't seem to affect the plants at all and worked well for refilling the reservoir when I've had to leave for a period of time and run the tent on an auto irrigation system.
- Thread starter
- #28
jayvollmer
Well-Known Member
Cool my reservation about the coco soil is that like you mentioned about the magnesium I've also read that it doesn't hold onto nutrients very well which can be a double edge sword. Raising vs harvest which is when you're supposed stop feeding altogether so it makes me think you could end up with better purity in the buds since the soil would essentially be bare leaving only what the plant has to feed the buds
Trump
Well-Known Member
Look into fertigation as a feeding technique. I've seen it run in coco with really good results.
- Thread starter
- #30
jayvollmer
Well-Known Member
I have been I'm gonna be trying it with one of my clones I've already got it starting in coco. Not to mention I got a northern lights automatic igrowcan from royal queen seeds and it came with its own supplies and its growing medium is just coco soil with fertilizer its doing great so I see that it's a good way to go
- Thread starter
- #31
jayvollmer
Well-Known Member
I've kept a day by day photo journal for her she's on day 16 and doing great
that was a couple of rounds back - Thread starter
- #33
jayvollmer
Well-Known Member
Any advice?
This happened overnight. I've been watering accordingly, my grow cabinet is an old china cabinet with a little heater with a temp setting and I've got a thermometer that's been reading 70-80 degrees I've got a fan in there a seedling full spectrum grow light and a cup of water for humidity. The only thing I did was cut off the cotyledon leaves because they were yellow and half falling off anyway. Everything else is doing well I'm stumped. I did take the plant out of the pot it was in and put it in a smaller pot because it's I a seedling plug so there was no disturbing the roots and I used the same soil that it's been in I've moved it outside. I'm still new at growing weed but I've got tons of other plants that are all doing great but they're outside plants but we still started them all from seeds and in the same grow cabinet.
That looks like coco in the pot. Is that the same or different from the plug's medium?
- Thread starter
- #35
jayvollmer
Well-Known Member
The plug and the medium are both coco
Watering? Or feeding?Any advice?This happened overnight. I've been watering accordingly, my grow cabinet is an old china cabinet with a little heater with a temp setting and I've got a thermometer that's been reading 70-80 degrees I've got a fan in there a seedling full spectrum grow light and a cup of water for humidity. The only thing I did was cut off the cotyledon leaves because they were yellow and half falling off anyway. Everything else is doing well I'm stumped. I did take the plant out of the pot it was in and put it in a smaller pot because it's I a seedling plug so there was no disturbing the roots and I used the same soil that it's been in I've moved it outside. I'm still new at growing weed but I've got tons of other plants that are all doing great but they're outside plants but we still started them all from seeds and in the same grow cabinet.
Calmag in nutrients first every time?
Ph 5.8?
Looks like heater overwarmed her a little.
Try lowering temp and see how she reacts?
Stay safe
Bill284
- Thread starter
- #37
jayvollmer
Well-Known Member
It's an all in one kit it came with fertilizer that you mix in the coco soil and that's it the instructions don't require any additional nutrients besides water. I honestly thought it was the temperature I've already lowered it but I wasn't sure if that was the issue but that's the only variable that made any sense hopefully she recovers thanks for the advice
They make granular nutrients to mix in your pot that work well in coco.
What brand?
Those nutrients will be lacking in calmag usually.
I'd add calmag to the plain water before giving it to the girls.
Did lowering the temp help her?
Stay safe
Bill284
- Thread starter
- #39
jayvollmer
Well-Known Member
I don't remember the brand but it came in the kit. The kit is the igrowcan from royal queen seeds. There was an extensive breakdown on the back of the package but I don't remember what it said. But she's still alive she looks pretty much the same no better and no worse so I will have to wait and see how she does I am worried about over doing things with her being sick
- Thread starter
- #40
jayvollmer
Well-Known Member
I've decided to move all of my plants outside since everything else I'm growing is outside and everything else is doing great. I suppose if I'm going to get more into growing weed then I'm gonna have to invest better equipment designed for the purpose. But for now mother nature can help me out while I've got her on my side hopefully no more plant issues I'll update my results either way