Lower leaf yellowing, deficiency?

[Weffalo]

What was pH last time u checks.it no since.checking again if u been checking it liken u have older leaves will die off.mabey just trim all those yellow ones off.see how she does.over the next 5-10days

I'm going to see if the adjustment to nutes improves things, I don't want to remove the problem leaves without first fixing the defiency as it gives me "early warning" before it effects the canopy.

Thanks for looking bro, I've only checked *input* ph which was 6.0x during last feed, nearly always 6.0-6.2 or very close too. I'll look up how to do a slurry test just to definitely rule out ph issues

 

[Sueet]

I'm going to see if the adjustment to nutes improves things, I don't want to remove the problem leaves without first fixing the defiency as it gives me "early warning" before it effects the canopy.

Thanks for looking bro, I've only checked *input* ph which was 6.0x during last feed, nearly always 6.0-6.2 or very close too. I'll look up how to do a slurry test just to definitely rule out ph issues

I don't do hydro, but I'm pretty sure they tend to call for a lower pH than 6-6.2. I have seen 5.8 quoted most often, but I've also seen a few saying as low as 5.5

 

[Weffalo]

I don't do hydro, but I'm pretty sure they tend to call for a lower pH than 6-6.2. I have seen 5.8 quoted most often, but I've also seen a few saying as low as 5.5

Thanks @Sueet - I'm in a sub irrigated planter which is soil with a reservoir (very simply), I'm not sure that the ph needs to be so low with the soil as a buffer but I appreciate your input

 

[Weffalo]

Third day now of using the new nutrients, well third res fill. Once the lower leaves start yellowing that much are they guaranteed to die or is that a sign the defiency is still not fixed? The leaves that were yellow yesterday are now dead but I don't see loads of new yellow higher up so hopefully it's starting to come under control

Tried to take similar angles for comparison:

 

[InTheShed]

They won't recover so the best thing is to keep track of (or tag) a few leaves further up to see if they start down the same road

 

[Weffalo]

They won't recover so the best thing is to keep track of (or tag) a few leaves further up to see if they start down the same road

Thanks a lot @InTheShed. I tagged a super healthy leaf that is still fairly low down so should be a good indicator.

Tomorrow is meant to be defol day, I should be safe to remove lower bud sites and leave fan leaves right? Just want all this plant energy dedicatd above the canopy asap but obviously don't want to remove my early warning system

I've also removed the fully dead leaves mostly, can now see more clearly what's new. Here's what it looked like this morning before I took anything:

Here's some more after I removed the bottom dead leaves and the lights went off:
Tagged leaf for ref:

Photo above has calcium def spots on I think? Top of canopy but not super widespread yet (I could a few more across the canopy but not loads)

Had 4 res fills of the new nutrients now.
Last measured 1.93EC, 5.91 PH
Environment averages: 27c/56%/1.13kPa
Light was moved to 16" above the buds poking out, DLI measured 36-39 (bottom-top of canopy)

 

[safeman]

Seems you got a lot of very good informartion _ -- generally with a SCROG one defoliates all leaves under the SCOG - seem light a nutrients issues/light isse -- being that you are getting close to harvest there is nothing you can do excepet - feed with just water sit back and watch a learn next grow consider your light height and nutrient use (consider feeding 1 or 2 x's a week) (rememebr once you feed plant it takes about 1 week for the nutreints to reach their specific goal (buds,ect) great plant /great grow !!!!

 

[Weffalo]

Seems you got a lot of very good informartion _ -- generally with a SCROG one defoliates all leaves under the SCOG - seem light a nutrients issues/light isse -- being that you are getting close to harvest there is nothing you can do excepet - feed with just water sit back and watch a learn next grow consider your light height and nutrient use (consider feeding 1 or 2 x's a week) (rememebr once you feed plant it takes about 1 week for the nutreints to reach their specific goal (buds,ect) great plant /great grow !!!!

Thanks @safeman - I definitely have mate, thanks for your advice too.

I feed nutrients every single feeding, never plain water. I think with the power of hindsight it's as simple as switching to the wrong nutrient mix too early, maybe the bloom nutes mix from my chart should be used in week 5 or 6 but not the start of week 3, at least for this strain/grow.

I do agree on the lack of light thing below the canopy and that's what I first suspected but clearly its both light and a lack of N/Calmag, I reckon now we are probably close to fixing the issue.

I know about heavy defol but I wasn't planning to do it until day 21 (which is tomorrow) as that's when the stretch is definitely finished and taking a load of leaves/budsites won't effect the stretch? Instead that stress will hopefully go towards increasing sugars? I'm still learning but I've not taken any steps without first reading up heavily on the topic, the problem with all cannabis information is the huge amount of conflicting info on any given subject

I'm now planning on waiting a little bit longer before taking any leaves, unless @InTheShed gives me direct instructions otherwise, I'm following his much appreciated health regime for my lady lol )

 

[bluter]

i can't figure out why this plant continues to look underfed. i'm not worried about the stuff under the scrog net, it's the stuff above that has me wondering. are the above shots the actual color, or is it getting washed out by a flash or grow light ?

sips grows are usually really stable, it looks like its been underfed for a while, and wasn't set for flip. the plant is eating all the leaves that don't get penetration, which is ok, but it looks to be grabbing from there instead of feeding.

how often does it eat through the res ? it should be at about daily right now.

i don't see a calmag problem at all. i would stick with 1/2 to the full recommended dose, just to keep some color with the n , and also because the led will pull some.

it does look like a nute problem. elongated tips can point to a k def or trouble with n. i think we're looking at probable k def, and maybe one or two minor tweaks in the nutes.

are you still running the GH clone trio ? if so, you should be well into the flower part of the nute sched. now is when i start on boosters as well, it looks like you have the head room.

as far as ph, yeah, i dunno where you go with that. it isn't presenting as a ph issue exactly, but ph could still have an effect. i believe the biobizz soil mixes are buffered, negating ph, but they are meant to be used with the biobizz nutes, which also claim no ph required. GH normally likes to live by ph, and you've mixed the two. ph would likely be by soil rules with biobizz, but there is a catch.

ph'ing for soil in a sips may not be correct once the roots hit the res, and you are using what is primarily considered a hydro nute. sips may run under hydro rules once hitting the res. i'd have a conversation with the sips folks about what their stance is on it. you might be missing a chunk of nute uptake due to ph. i personally think you'd be seeing more damage though.

keep us informed of how this is going. i would fight hard for this to finish.

edit : your temps don't bother me, unless you are dipping during lights off by more than 6 degrees. you don't want it under 18c at night.

 

[farside05]

ph'ing for soil in a sips may not be correct once the roots hit the res, and you are using what is primarily considered a hydro nute. sips may run under hydro rules once hitting the res. i'd have a conversation with the sips folks about what their stance is on it. you might be missing a chunk of nute uptake due to ph. i personally think you'd be seeing more damage though.

At least with my GroBucket SIPs, the roots never go into the reservoir. You can see in the image below, that the roots stop going downwards when they get to the super saturated soil-less mix that acts as a wick for the rest of the media.

PXL_20230111_180806044.jpg

• farside05
• Jan 11, 2023

 

[Weffalo]

i can't figure out why this plant continues to look underfed. i'm not worried about the stuff under the scrog net, it's the stuff above that has me wondering. are the above shots the actual color, or is it getting washed out by a flash or grow light ?

sips grows are usually really stable, it looks like its been underfed for a while, and wasn't set for flip. the plant is eating all the leaves that don't get penetration, which is ok, but it looks to be grabbing from there instead of feeding.

how often does it eat through the res ? it should be at about daily right now.

i don't see a calmag problem at all. i would stick with 1/2 to the full recommended dose, just to keep some color with the n , and also because the led will pull some.

it does look like a nute problem. elongated tips can point to a k def or trouble with n. i think we're looking at probable k def, and maybe one or two minor tweaks in the nutes.

are you still running the GH clone trio ? if so, you should be well into the flower part of the nute sched. now is when i start on boosters as well, it looks like you have the head room.

as far as ph, yeah, i dunno where you go with that. it isn't presenting as a ph issue exactly, but ph could still have an effect. i believe the biobizz soil mixes are buffered, negating ph, but they are meant to be used with the biobizz nutes, which also claim no ph required. GH normally likes to live by ph, and you've mixed the two. ph would likely be by soil rules with biobizz, but there is a catch.

ph'ing for soil in a sips may not be correct once the roots hit the res, and you are using what is primarily considered a hydro nute. sips may run under hydro rules once hitting the res. i'd have a conversation with the sips folks about what their stance is on it. you might be missing a chunk of nute uptake due to ph. i personally think you'd be seeing more damage though.

keep us informed of how this is going. i would fight hard for this to finish.

edit : your temps don't bother me, unless you are dipping during lights off by more than 6 degrees. you don't want it under 18c at night.

Hey @bluter - Thanks for looking at this mate, really appreciate your experienced set of eyes

or is it getting washed out by a flash or grow light ?

Flash definitely washes it out slightly but the green is too light with the tips even lighter. The leds for sure are not accurate but your right it's not as dark as it should be.

how often does it eat through the res ? it should be at about daily right now.

Daily, res is 2.5 litres and refilled every day, I usually top it up before I go to bed as well (which is just before lights on for the plant usually), it's empty by the time I wake up. It's been daily since just before flip to be honest.

are you still running the GH clone trio ? if so, you should be well into the flower part of the nute sched. now is when i start on boosters as well, it looks like you have the head room.

I'm using the trio but it's slightly different formula here in EU, but yeah it's approximately the same product. Here's how I did it for flower:

Grow nutes for day 1-7
Preflower nutes from day 8-13
Bloom nutes for day 14-16

Posted here and then with help from @InTheShed I've adjusted the nutes too:
TA Grow: 1.8ml
TA Micro: .8ml
TA Bloom: 1ml
CannaCalMag: 1ml

Regarding PH, I've not needed to adjust it in a while because if it's anywhere between 5.8 to 6.2 I'm thinking it's good, that's based on the instructions from the T.A (GH EU) website which say the nutrient ph should be 5.5 - 6.5 or if possible 5.8-6.2 for the best uptake.

edit : your temps don't bother me, unless you are dipping during lights off by more than 6 degrees. you don't want it under 18c at night.

I've adjusted my temps now to be higher based on the advice received here and then further research on LEDs and optimal temps, I'm planning to reduce it by 4f every week or so and finish at 74f for the last few weeks of ripening. Day time is like 28c and night time is like 19-20c with humidity going down by about 5% to 50% during the night thanks to a 2nd dehumidifier in the lung room.

keep us informed of how this is going. i would fight hard for this to finish.

I definitely will mate thank you I felt I'd learned enough from the first grow to do well with this one but nothing worth doing is ever straight forward or simple is it I'll be fighting every day to let her finish strong

 

[GreenFingaz]

i can't figure out why this plant continues to look underfed. i'm not worried about the stuff under the scrog net, it's the stuff above that has me wondering. are the above shots the actual color, or is it getting washed out by a flash or grow light ?

sips grows are usually really stable, it looks like its been underfed for a while, and wasn't set for flip. the plant is eating all the leaves that don't get penetration, which is ok, but it looks to be grabbing from there instead of feeding.

how often does it eat through the res ? it should be at about daily right now.

i don't see a calmag problem at all. i would stick with 1/2 to the full recommended dose, just to keep some color with the n , and also because the led will pull some.

it does look like a nute problem. elongated tips can point to a k def or trouble with n. i think we're looking at probable k def, and maybe one or two minor tweaks in the nutes.

are you still running the GH clone trio ? if so, you should be well into the flower part of the nute sched. now is when i start on boosters as well, it looks like you have the head room.

as far as ph, yeah, i dunno where you go with that. it isn't presenting as a ph issue exactly, but ph could still have an effect. i believe the biobizz soil mixes are buffered, negating ph, but they are meant to be used with the biobizz nutes, which also claim no ph required. GH normally likes to live by ph, and you've mixed the two. ph would likely be by soil rules with biobizz, but there is a catch.

ph'ing for soil in a sips may not be correct once the roots hit the res, and you are using what is primarily considered a hydro nute. sips may run under hydro rules once hitting the res. i'd have a conversation with the sips folks about what their stance is on it. you might be missing a chunk of nute uptake due to ph. i personally think you'd be seeing more damage though.

keep us informed of how this is going. i would fight hard for this to finish.

edit : your temps don't bother me, unless you are dipping during lights off by more than 6 degrees. you don't want it under 18c at night.

The biobizz lightmix is buffered to 6.2ph and I still ph between 6.0 and 6.3 just to be sure. Maybe thats just me not taking the risk lol

 

[bluter]

I'm using the trio but it's slightly different formula here in EU, but yeah it's approximately the same product. Here's how I did it for flower:

Grow nutes for day 1-7
Preflower nutes from day 8-13
Bloom nutes for day 14-16

all three are meant to be mixed together with the calmag when you feed. don't feed one at a time. that could explain a bit.

TA Grow: 1.8ml
TA Micro: .8ml
TA Bloom: 1ml
CannaCalMag: 1ml

the above chart is closer to preflower levels. i'd feed a bit heavier.
this is the recommended flower chart.

grow .7ml/ L
micro 1.4 ml/L
bloom 2.1 ml/L

calmag will depend on the plant. it's a soil chart which should work for the biobizz mix.

they shoot for an ec of 1.3 to 1.7 in flower which is not real precise.

Regarding PH, I've not needed to adjust it in a while because if it's anywhere between 5.8 to 6.2 I'm thinking it's good, that's based on the instructions from the T.A (GH EU) website which say the nutrient ph should be 5.5 - 6.5 or if possible 5.8-6.2 for the best uptake.

TA is recommending a hydro approach ph - 5.8 - 6.2 is hydro range. ph to 5.8 when you feed. starting higher means you could be missing uptake.

common ph for soil is 6.3 - 6.5.

this chart starts a bit high for soil at 6.5.

i don't think ph is the direct issue but i like to stay inside of it. see if TA recommends anything different between soil and hydro for ph.

I've adjusted my temps now to be higher based on the advice received here and then further research on LEDs and optimal temps, I'm planning to reduce it by 4f every week or so and finish at 74f for the last few weeks of ripening. Day time is like 28c and night time is like 19-20c with humidity going down by about 5% to 50% during the night thanks to a 2nd dehumidifier in the lung room.

temps are better now. your humidity is better than what i get.

 

[bluter]

At least with my GroBucket SIPs, the roots never go into the reservoir. You can see in the image below, that the roots stop going downwards when they get to the super saturated soil-less mix that acts as a wick for the rest of the media.

what are you running for media @farside05 ? and are you ph'ing ?

i was under the impression a lot of sip growers ran a layer perlite on top of the res, then a soil type media on top.

 

[farside05]

what are you running for media @farside05 ? and are you ph'ing ?

i was under the impression a lot of sip growers ran a layer perlite on top of the res, then a soil type media on top.

I'm using Pro-Mix Organic Garden Mix, the cheap 2 cubic foot bales from Walmart. home Depot carries it too. It is like 70% peat moss, 20% coco,10% perlite, and pH buffered. I'll also use Pro-Mix Premium Moisture Potting Mix (also from Wally's). It's a dollar more a bale. It's got a bit more peat and less coir than the Garden Mix. They both give me similar results, just depends on what's in stock when I need it.

I do not pH my nutrient solution. The pH is handled by the buffered soil-less mix. Last time I checked, my nutrient solution is normally in the mid 7's.

I do not have a layer of perlite on top of the res. It's 100% Pro-Mix throughout the bucket.

 

[bluter]

I'm using Pro-Mix Organic Garden Mix, the cheap 2 cubic foot bales from Walmart. home Depot carries it too. It is like 70% peat moss, 20% coco,10% perlite, and pH buffered. I'll also use Pro-Mix Premium Moisture Potting Mix (also from Wally's). It's a dollar more a bale. It's got a bit more peat and less coir than the Garden Mix. They both give me similar results, just depends on what's in stock when I need it.

I do not pH my nutrient solution. The pH is handled by the buffered soil-less mix. Last time I checked, my nutrient solution is normally in the mid 7's.

I do not have a layer of perlite on top of the res. It's 100% Pro-Mix throughout the bucket.

i ran a 50/50 mix of the promix garden and hp for a few years in buckets with weak nutes or just supplements. was thinking of the same mix for a sips grow, probably with just a little MC. the garden is nuted.

i usually added a bit more perlite too.

we ran it under soil rules, but i don't know if both were buffered then.

 

[Weffalo]

all three are meant to be mixed together with the calmag when you feed. don't feed one at a time. that could explain a bit.






the above chart is closer to preflower levels. i'd feed a bit heavier.
this is the recommended flower chart.

grow .7ml/ L
micro 1.4 ml/L
bloom 2.1 ml/L

calmag will depend on the plant. it's a soil chart which should work for the biobizz mix.

they shoot for an ec of 1.3 to 1.7 in flower which is not real precise.







TA is recommending a hydro approach ph - 5.8 - 6.2 is hydro range. ph to 5.8 when you feed. starting higher means you could be missing uptake.

common ph for soil is 6.3 - 6.5.

this chart starts a bit high for soil at 6.5.

i don't think ph is the direct issue but i like to stay inside of it. see if TA recommends anything different between soil and hydro for ph.







temps are better now. your humidity is better than what i get.

Morning @bluter

I'll ask T.A about Soil, it doesn't specify a difference on the website. It's on the page for phUP or ph DOWN and it reads "There is no such thing as an ideal pH. High values help cation uptake and low values help anion uptake : every fixed pH is a compromise. The usual safe range recommendation is from 5.5 to 6.5. Our advice is to stay on the low side : from 5.5 to 6.2."

Hence why I've left it alone when reading between those values. I will double check with them!

all three are meant to be mixed together with the calmag when you feed. don't feed one at a time. that could explain a bit.

Sorry mate think you misunderstood here, the "Grow, Preflower and Bloom" nutes I was referencing are combinations of the Tri-Part and not I was only feeding one part each week. Here's the chart I've been using:

So 1.5 gro/1 Micro/0.5 Bloom for week 1, switched to1.5/1.5/1 for a week and then finally changed to 0.7/1.4/2.1 which is approximately when the issues showed up.

The reason Shed recommended a different mix is due to the fact I am reducing Nitrogen with the flowering nutes and there seems to be an N defiency, so bad idea to reduce N intake.

calmag will depend on the plant. it's a soil chart which should work for the biobizz mix.

they shoot for an ec of 1.3 to 1.7 in flower which is not real precise.

My EC is reading 1.9 approximately with Sheds mix, according to T.A website the 1.3-1.7 can be increased by 0.2 if using hard water that reads 0.4-0.6EC before adding nutrients, I have soft water but after adding CalMag my EC reads around 0.5 and then 1.9 EC after adding NPK which sounds already on the upper ends of T.A recommendations?

temps are better now. your humidity is better than what i get.

Awesome cheers bro, good to know it's okay.

Regarding my medium I am using 40% Perlite mixed with the soil for aeration and drainage, the top layer of the soil dries out entirely forming a dry barrier against bugs/pests. This was recommended by experienced members of the SIP club

Really appreciate you looking and offering help mate, I'm just waking up but gonna go feed and grab some pictures, hopefully the death of her leaves has slowed

 

[Weffalo]

So definitely a positive update, since I removed the majority of the dead leaves yesterday, and tagged one, today absolutely 0 signs on tagged leaf and it doesn't look like much more damage either, it's definitely slowed down at the least... the really good thing though is the leaves were semi-praying this morning when the res was empty.

This is the FIRST time I can remember seeing the leaves praying, the res also seemed to take 3 litres of nutes which means I guess it had dried out a bit fairly fast too. Really positive signs thanks so much @InTheShed <3

I'm going to remove the lower budsites today, and take a few stems to practice cloning bonsai mothers with, I'll update with more pics tomorrow and potentially I can head back to my grow journal and stop clogging up this subforum )

I'm still not entirely sure if I should move on too a bloom heavier feed at some point in the future? I'd appreciate your advice on that please Shed

Here are the pics (Day 21 flower, day 6 of recovery ):

 

[cbdhemp808]

Hey @Weffalo, nice looking plant!

You're massively in good care here by multiple experts, so I'll just add my humble 2 cents.

First impressions... Nitrogen. The plant overall is pale, from the top view, but I do see darker green lower down in the canopy. I see signs that N is being stolen from lower leaves, due to N deficiency. I also see middle leaves involved, starting to yellow from the leaflet tips. I'm not seeing Ca or K deficiency in leaves. I see a vigorous plant starting flowering, still needing enough N, but also sufficient P & K. Back to the N... Keep in mind that Fe, Zn, Mn are interrelated plant nutrients affecting uptake/use of N and S. Lack of N = yellowing. Lack of S = yellowing. I'm not a SIP grower, so can't say much about how you are feeding, pH, etc. So, I'd just say make sure your fertigation is correct in terms of all these nutes I mentioned. One more thing... this may be a natural time to lollipop. But what do I know... I'm an outdoor grower, don't do LST or anything. Good luck!

 

[Weffalo]

Hey @Weffalo, nice looking plant!

You're massively in good care here by multiple experts, so I'll just add my humble 2 cents.

First impressions... Nitrogen. The plant overall is pale, from the top view, but I do see darker green lower down in the canopy. I see signs that N is being stolen from lower leaves, due to N deficiency. I also see middle leaves involved, starting to yellow from the leaflet tips. I'm not seeing Ca or K deficiency in leaves. I see a vigorous plant starting flowering, still needing enough N, but also sufficient P & K. Back to the N... Keep in mind that Fe, Zn, Mn are interrelated plant nutrients affecting uptake/use of N and S. Lack of N = yellowing. Lack of S = yellowing. I'm not a SIP grower, so can't say much about how you are feeding, pH, etc. So, I'd just say make sure your fertigation is correct in terms of all these nutes I mentioned. One more thing... this may be a natural time to lollipop. But what do I know... I'm an outdoor grower, don't do LST or anything. Good luck!

Hey @cbdhemp808 -Thanks for weighing in mate, I appreciate your humble 2 cents as much as anyones <3

I appreciate the info and lesson there, that all makes sense

So from what @InTheShed said, I believe we have enough Sulphur, the other nutrients you mention I think are found in the Tri-Part "Micro" but they definitely could of been out of whack before the proposed solution, I feel with Shed's nutrient analysis I can relax a bit about knowing that my mix now has the right amounts of things.

It's hard to know how to alter the synthetic feeding schedules when things go wrong without going too far the other way or miscalculating in my very limited experience. So I'm very thankful to the smarter and wiser members here offering all this guidance and advice <3

Regarding the lollipop, great timing of your comment I tried to leave on some fan leaves as an indicator with this problem and I inevitably missed some of the budsites/nodes but I've done my first attempt at lollipopping

Pics: