Lil Neutrino's 2nd Indoor CFL - Bagseed Planted New Year's Eve During the Blue Moon

[Siscokid]

Re: Lil Neutrino's 2nd Indoor CFL - Bagseed planted New Year's Eve during the blue mo

General Hydroponics pH UP & DOWN 4oz Dry Samples - eBay (item 370127124624 end time Apr-01-10 2340 PDT)

 

[Siscokid]

Re: Lil Neutrino's 2nd Indoor CFL - Bagseed planted New Year's Eve during the blue mo

A BUG! UUUUUUUHHHHHH

wtf, are they... that looks like a termite?

 

[Lil Neutrino]

Re: Lil Neutrino's 2nd Indoor CFL - Bagseed planted New Year's Eve during the blue mo

Thanks for the link dude...

Cannabis Plant and Pest Problem Solver - Pictorial

They're in the pest section, 4/5 of the way down...not the worst thing I could have picked up but definitely something I want to get rid of and do NOT want getting in to the flower cabinet.

 

[Lil Neutrino]

Re: Lil Neutrino's 2nd Indoor CFL - Bagseed planted New Year's Eve during the blue mo

you should check out Way to Grow, they're having a sale april 1-3 or something like that.

Thanks for the heads-up...unfortunately none of their locations are even remotely close to me.

 

[Lil Neutrino]

Re: Lil Neutrino's 2nd Indoor CFL - Bagseed planted New Year's Eve during the blue mo

Sonuvabitch...from the "Plant and Pest Problem Solver" sticky:

The suck the sap right out of your plant with there piercing mouths, which makes the leaves look like they turned white. You can tell when you have thrips by taking a look at your leaves, the leaves will look as if there chlorophyll have been ripped right off the plant.

Now go back and look at the pics of my dying clones and remember my comment about them turning a pale yellow/white? On the other hand I don't remember seeing any patterns like the one shown in the pic in the solver, they just turned color as if from nutrient deficiency or something. So maybe it wasn't thrips.

That means they've been around longer than I thought if that's what caused the other clones to die...they're not from the FFOF soil. I wonder if those "necrotic" spots are actually thrip excrement? Were they in the RR plugs lying dormant? I dunno, they were unopened for months until a month ago and I promptly sealed them back up when I was done. I'm half tempted to get one out and find out but at the same time I don't want more of those lil bastards running around. One thing's for sure...hang on...ok, those plugs are no longer in the same room as the flower cab. I don't see any through the plastic but then again there's nothing for them to eat in there and possibly not moist enough.

Considering using D.E. to combat them...waiting for some feedback first though (I have a new thread in the "pest" forum).

 

[420warriors]

Re: Lil Neutrino's 2nd Indoor CFL - Bagseed planted New Year's Eve during the blue mo

I don't know about the brown spots on the clones, but the yellowing looks like they are just concentrating on root growth. When the roots aren't developed enough to get the needed nutes they start taking nutes from the leaves. This usually starts with the lower leaves and spreads from there. Do you have them under a humidity dome and mist them several times a day? I don't have much cloning experience, the best luck I ever had was with a gel you put the cuttung into and let it go. I used the gel one time and had 100% success. No need for a dome or watering or anything. Sorry but I can't remember what it was called.

 

[OldMedUser]

Re: Lil Neutrino's 2nd Indoor CFL - Bagseed planted New Year's Eve during the blue mo

High Neut.

Looks like thrips but thrips whole life cycle is spent on the leaves. Thrips don't care about the soil. Some fly and some don't. Look at the base of the leaves underneath right where all the fingers come together. That's where they lay their eggs right in the leaf cells. There will be some small black spots if they're thrips. If they are thrips and they're only on a clone or vegging plant I'd get some good old fashioned insecticide and kill 'em dead. Thrip damage looks like little windows in your leaves. The leaves don't turn yellow just get these shiny spots that become windows. They suck all the juice out of the cells and leave just a colourless skin. Mite damage looks like little random spots all over the leaves but those bugs don't look like mites, they look like thrip larvae. If you're finding them in the soil then they could be fungus gnats which live their larval stage in the soil eating root tips and hairs. Some fungus gnat killer powder works great and won't transfer to the plant. It just gets used on the top of the soil and kills them when they emerge. It kills the adults too I think when they land on the soil to lay eggs.

I tried using DE on my plants but they were pretty badly infected before I caught it so I'm not sure if it would have been effective if I started earlier.

If they seem to be in the soil then check the bag of soil that you used if you still have it. I got fungus gnats from a bag of organic soil I bought at a hydro store a few years ago. When I checked the bag it was full of them. Put a bit of soil in a shot glas and you will see them flipping around on the surface if they're there. Wipe the surface of the water with a piece of white paper towel to catch some for viewing under a scope. Transparent, very small bodies with a couple of dark eye spots. If they are fungus gnats rejoice, as they are easy to get rid of with the powder. A dry surface of the soil is good to have to prevent them.

Lots of luck with getting rid of those beasties!

 

[Lil Neutrino]

Re: Lil Neutrino's 2nd Indoor CFL - Bagseed planted New Year's Eve during the blue mo

I don't know about the brown spots on the clones, but the yellowing looks like they are just concentrating on root growth. When the roots aren't developed enough to get the needed nutes they start taking nutes from the leaves. This usually starts with the lower leaves and spreads from there.

Yeah, that's what was happening and then new, green growth began to appear...and then the new growth QUICKLY began to yellow even though nothing had changed.

Do you have them under a humidity dome and mist them several times a day? I don't have much cloning experience, the best luck I ever had was with a gel you put the cuttung into and let it go. I used the gel one time and had 100% success. No need for a dome or watering or anything. Sorry but I can't remember what it was called.

No misting, just a dome with very wet plugs...there have been so many changes/variations (moisture content, location, dome/no dome, etc) along the way though that it's hard to say exactly what was/is going on.

High Neut.

Looks like thrips but thrips whole life cycle is spent on the leaves. Thrips don't care about the soil. Some fly and some don't. Look at the base of the leaves underneath right where all the fingers come together. That's where they lay their eggs right in the leaf cells. There will be some small black spots if they're thrips. If they are thrips and they're only on a clone or vegging plant I'd get some good old fashioned insecticide and kill 'em dead. Thrip damage looks like little windows in your leaves. The leaves don't turn yellow just get these shiny spots that become windows. They suck all the juice out of the cells and leave just a colourless skin. Mite damage looks like little random spots all over the leaves but those bugs don't look like mites, they look like thrip larvae. If you're finding them in the soil then they could be fungus gnats which live their larval stage in the soil eating root tips and hairs. Some fungus gnat killer powder works great and won't transfer to the plant. It just gets used on the top of the soil and kills them when they emerge. It kills the adults too I think when they land on the soil to lay eggs.

Thanks LR! I think...now I am not sure what I have lol. The leaves are pretty small as it's just new growth that's green now and without a magnifying glass it's hard to take a look under proper light...but what I could see did not indicate any eggs. The only black spots I could see on the underside also showed on the top side and were on dead parts of the leaves. I also don't see anything in the foliage...so if thrips are purely canopy pests then these aren't it because the only place I saw them was in the plugs. Literally going IN to the plug but I have not seen any since this morning.

As for fungus gnat larvae that could be due to the high humidity conditions that have recently existed again...I'm actually seeing some green growth on the plugs themselves, can't tell what it is though if it's moss or mold or what. I did leave the humidity dome off for a bit and let a fan blow across them to dry them out. I did this for a few hours and the plugs were nearly dry (still a little soft so not completely). I then put them back in about 1/8" of water (6.7pH iirc but it's cold so I have them over a fire trying to heat the water) and closely watched....nada, not one single pest came out. I don't know if they are just hiding really deep or if they drowned or what but an hour later and still nothing coming out.

If they seem to be in the soil then check the bag of soil that you used if you still have it. I got fungus gnats from a bag of organic soil I bought at a hydro store a few years ago. When I checked the bag it was full of them. Put a bit of soil in a shot glas and you will see them flipping around on the surface if they're there. Wipe the surface of the water with a piece of white paper towel to catch some for viewing under a scope. Transparent, very small bodies with a couple of dark eye spots. If they are fungus gnats rejoice, as they are easy to get rid of with the powder. A dry surface of the soil is good to have to prevent them.

I do, I'll check it...I get gnats or springtails (or both) in the substrate of some other critters that I keep when it gets moist for a few days. I wonder if these somehow are related...they're in my living room but on opposite sides and I never open the tanks the other things are in (stingy/bitey things ), just pour water/mist through the top. I've also had a few gnats in with my plant during my last grow but like you said, just let the soil dry out a bit and problem solved.

Thanks again...gonna have to contemplate this for a bit now, hopefully (sort of) catch one and get some better pics both top and bottom.

 

[MountainHigh]

Re: Lil Neutrino's 2nd Indoor CFL - Bagseed planted New Year's Eve during the blue mo

Wow bummer about the bugs...I hate bugs. A dead bug is a good one. Hope you get it whooped fast bro.

 

[Lil Neutrino]

Re: Lil Neutrino's 2nd Indoor CFL - Bagseed planted New Year's Eve during the blue mo

Hourly update #3...or 4...or whatever!

The pic of the fungus gnat larvae shown in the Problem Solver look nothing like the thrips...they appear to look more like clear mealy-worms like you'd feed a lizard. So I'm thinking that's not the right ID.

I did manage to find a few more, they came out of the center of the plug where the stems are with the water when I gently squeezed. I managed to pick a few out with tweezers and set them aside to take pics of whenever my batteries are done recharging. I also would like to post some pics of the mother...she's looking unhappy and I'm having a hard time nailing down the problem. That's another story for another post, gotta try and keep on topic!

Judging by how they reacted when separated from the moist plug and placed on to a DVD case (black background so I could see where they were easier, they're about the size of two periods at the most so anything to help) I don't think they'd make it to the flower cabinet...at least not in present form. My gf kept an eye on them while I picked for more

From Wikipedia's "Thrips" article:

Both suborders of thrips will first enter a short prepupal stage lasting a day at most, during which they will seek out dark crevices on plant, hiding in the tightly packed bud of flowers or bark - or drop off of the plant entirely, burrowing into leaf litter or loose soil. Some thrips will then construct a pupal cell or cocoon. In Terebrantian thrips, a single pupal instar follows, whereas in the Tubulifera, two pupal stages will follow. During these stages, wing-buds and reproductive structures will grow and mature into their adult forms.

This could account for finding them in the grow medium...which also means that winged flight could be imminent.

So about ten minutes have passed since that last sentence as I have been googling thrips. I have learned two things:

1) "Thrips" is both the singular and plural form...just like *****.

2) I most definitely have thrips larvae.

My damage control for the night is to isolate the clone inside the clone cabinet, reduce lighting to one bulb, and wait until tomorrow. I didn't see any in the flower cabinet this evening but I have a feeling I won't know it until it's too late, hence isolate that other clone and all escape routes from the humidity dome for now.

I'll post pics of the mother later on this evening and go over what I think is wrong with her and why and see what everyone's input is. In a nutshell I think it's a couple nute deficiencies caused by a pH lockout OR an excess of nitrogen due to too much baking powder (but that doesn't explain the spots I'm seeing). But I'll stop there or it'll be another 30 minutes of typing and thinking and typing some more...with no pics lol

 

[Lil Neutrino]

Re: Lil Neutrino's 2nd Indoor CFL - Bagseed planted New Year's Eve during the blue mo

*****

edit: Hmmm...so why is "m oose" a censored word?

edit 2: So my gf unplugged my battery charger in her haste to plug in her cell phone and then promptly decided she didn't want to charge it there anyway and took the charger elsewhere...never plugged it back in. I don't know if my charger discharges the batteries completely before recharging...if it does it's gonna be a while. *sigh*

 

[Lil Neutrino]

Re: Lil Neutrino's 2nd Indoor CFL - Bagseed planted New Year's Eve during the blue mo

As I mentioned I'm thinking this is multiple nute deficiencies caused by improper pH. I had been using baking powder to raise the pH of my EJ nute mix three times iirc with plain distilled water in between each. The last watering with the nutes was a strong dose and I used a lot of baking powder to try and raise the pH even to 6.0, eventually it stopped rising probably due to oversaturation. Anyway, after this watering there was a lot of buildup of something in the drip pan, probably the baking powder. I didn't check the pH of the runoff for whatever reason but going in I think it was 6.2 or 6.3. The next watering was plain distilled water with a bit of concentrated lemon juice to drop it from 7.5 to a reasonable level (yeah, this gallon of water's pH was a bit high) although I overshot by a bit and used 1/8 teaspoon of baking powder to raise it up to 6.5. Again I did not measure the runoff water because I had been bad and did not clean out the drip pan. I figured the water would interact with the residue in the drip pan and throw off the reading.

So twice I watered without knowing the run-off pH...and then I started noticing the problems pictured below. There was already some dying/yellowing leaves as is normal in plants in flower, all lower fan leaves and ones inside the foliage that weren't getting enough light. This problem is rapidly worsening, very noticeable difference between yesterday and today and has moved higher up in the foliage.

I am thinking this is from lack of P, Mg, and Ca as their uptake seems to stop around the 6.4 area if the chart I saw was correct (off-site, no link). After coming to the nute lockout conclusion I went to the store and bought some distilled water. I didn't add anything to it to raise or lower, just poured two gallons through her pot (2 or 2.5g I think). I know more is recommended for flushing but she had just received a gallon of water two days before so I figured this combined with that would be enough. Again, today she was quite a bit worse, relatively speaking, but I wasn't expecting it to immediately stop so didn't concern me TOO much...yet.

I want to post 18 pics to be as descriptive as possible (1000 words per pic X 18 = 18,000 words ) so these are a little smaller than usual:

Not sure what this is at all...might be nothing, maybe something

Input? Only other thought was excessive nitrogen...I had watered with two tablespoons of Mexican bat guano (10-3-1) in a tea the week before I put her in to flower so she'd have enough reserved for the stretch. I have been told that the baking powder could have broken down some of that nitrogen and spiked the N levels...not sure if this is possible or not but I don't want to rule it out. Thanks!

 

[420warriors]

Re: Lil Neutrino's 2nd Indoor CFL - Bagseed planted New Year's Eve during the blue mo

Hey lil N, looks like a rough couple days. I was going to say multiple defs or lockout also but wemt back and looked Cannabis Plant and Pest Problem Solver - Pictorial A manganese def will give most of your symptoms. I might be wrong but at least the link may be helpful.

 

[Lil Neutrino]

Re: Lil Neutrino's 2nd Indoor CFL - Bagseed planted New Year's Eve during the blue mo

Thanks, I'll give it a read...sandman is knocking on my brain atm though. That solver has been a great resource over the months that I've been on this forum...nearly a year now! Actually I'm going to read it now because otherwise the curiosity will keep me awake but I'll save my response until tomorrow...gives me time to mull it over, I know I've spent enough time dreaming about my clones lol. I think I had actually considered manganese originally too but after reading more and comparing more and really thinking about my previous actions I began to come to other conclusions or it could even be both. My experience diagnosing anything other than nitrogen deficiency is very limited...rather nonexistant really.

How long does it take for nute lockout to occur once the pH is off a bit? Is it even possible given the watering/pH details above? Still kicking myself for not taking measurements regardless of if they would have been off or not, would have at least been something to look at. Live, remember, and learn.

 

[OldMedUser]

Re: Lil Neutrino's 2nd Indoor CFL - Bagseed planted New Year's Eve during the blue mo

Thanks, I'll give it a read...sandman is knocking on my brain atm though. That solver has been a great resource over the months that I've been on this forum...nearly a year now! Actually I'm going to read it now because otherwise the curiosity will keep me awake but I'll save my response until tomorrow...gives me time to mull it over, I know I've spent enough time dreaming about my clones lol. I think I had actually considered manganese originally too but after reading more and comparing more and really thinking about my previous actions I began to come to other conclusions or it could even be both. My experience diagnosing anything other than nitrogen deficiency is very limited...rather nonexistant really.

How long does it take for nute lockout to occur once the pH is off a bit? Is it even possible given the watering/pH details above? Still kicking myself for not taking measurements regardless of if they would have been off or not, would have at least been something to look at. Live, remember, and learn.

Those grub-like things are new to me. Have you checked your mum's soil to see if they are in there too? I know with fungus gnats they eat the roots which causes the plant to suffer deficiencies as it can't absorb the nutrients it needs. I found out about the ones I had when a batch of clones just wouldn't grow at all. Those bad leaves almost look like P deficiency.

That's all I got atm.

 

[Lil Neutrino]

Re: Lil Neutrino's 2nd Indoor CFL - Bagseed planted New Year's Eve during the blue mo

Those grubs are from a pic in the Solver thread...not what I have. I checked the mother plant's soil last night as best I could and saw no indication of any crawlies in it. She did however look perkier than I remembered from the day before and my gf agreed so maybe that flush did help...I know she wasn't thirsty as she was just watered two days before and isn't drinking THAT much water just yet.

And we're in agreeance that it could be a P deficiency...that makes me feel better. If it is I can't imagine it is from having too little in the soil given the doses of EJ Bloom she has received for the last five weeks. Her first regular dose was a week before I took the clones which was a week before she went in to flower. This is the beginning of the third week of flower and in the last three weeks she has had one regular dose of Bloom (0-3-1) and a strong dose within the last week. Roughly two waterings per week and have been alternating nutes with just water. Unless she's just massively hungry and needs more P it's gotta be from nute lockout. If she's just hungry then I hope she doesn't get too much worse before I can water again...probably not until Saturday with the drenching she got earlier this week.

 

[Lil Neutrino]

Re: Lil Neutrino's 2nd Indoor CFL - Bagseed planted New Year's Eve during the blue mo

I figured out what to do with those little bastards...stuck their butts outside today, water tray, humidity dome, clone, and associated thrips. I did find a mature adult yesterday and managed to squish it before it could escape the bright white confines of that cabinet when I mistakenly broke the seal It should get cold enough tonight to do some damage and kill them off or at least make them inactive enough at 3AM to bag 'em and tag 'em

As for the nutrient/pH issue, it seems to be going well after the flush. The affected leaves are still degrading but I expected that, haven't noticed too much spreading...minimal at best. Soil is still pretty damp and she's quite perky so might be a few more days before I need to water. I am concerned about deficiencies though after getting up close and personal with her tonight...I found a number of shoots that I didn't even know I had that were hiding on the sides and just under the top of the canopy. To help remedy this I added four more 26W CFL's (pics tomorrow maybe) in a "stick man" configuration with the arms and legs being bulbs and the rest being the receptacles for those feeling imaginative tonight/this morning!

And to help replace any excess nutes lost in that flush I'm just going to start with a regular dose and ensure the pH is where I need it to be coming out of the bottom of the pot. No more slacking, been bitten by that twice now...it's gonna really hurt one day. If all goes well the way she's looking now she just might be following in the last plant's foot steps. I was comparing pics for progress comparison and the closest I could get was a 8-9 day difference with this one being younger (3.5 weeks in to 12/12). With that much time she should be close to filling out like the last plant did, maybe not quite as fat though. I am starting to notice some nice sugar development on and around the buds...got a bit giddy tonight rummaging around in the foliage tonight and taking a good look at how she's progressing. I just may have to put her in for plant of the month but she's still got another 5-6 weeks or so...I'll choose my entry month carefully lol, always some great entries.

Anyway...pics, tomorrow...would do them tonight but I really need to get to bed as in an hour ago! Sorry!

 

[OldMedMan]

Re: Lil Neutrino's 2nd Indoor CFL - Bagseed planted New Year's Eve during the blue mo

That's good news Lil N She should really get on the road to showing her pretty self off in no time.

Man.what great description you just gave us. Seemed like we were sitting together talking.

 

[Siscokid]

Re: Lil Neutrino's 2nd Indoor CFL - Bagseed planted New Year's Eve during the blue mo

Keep throwing that crown on her... I'd really like to see her wear that again.

 

[Lil Neutrino]

Re: Lil Neutrino's 2nd Indoor CFL - Bagseed planted New Year's Eve during the blue mo

That's good news Lil N She should really get on the road to showing her pretty self off in no time.

Man.what great description you just gave us. Seemed like we were sitting together talking.

She must have overheard you...she looks like she's starting to put on some weight now. I got some pics to go with those descriptions now!

On a bad note last night plugging in the new light rack I accidentally hit the timer and spun it thus changing the time it was currently supposed to be. I set it back as best I could with the intention of waking up before her usual lights off period and making sure it turned off at the right time. Well, fate transpired against me and I was unable to sleep until after 4AM, thus when my alarm went off I turned it off and promptly overslept.

I did not find this to be too big of a deal until this evening. My gf told me the lights were on but it was an hour early and we didn't notice until about twenty minutes had passed I turned them off and raelized what I had done, when I had initially set the time on the timer it was before daylight savings ended thus an hour different. I reset accordingly and made sure it kicked on at exactly its usual time. Hopefully it won't mess with her too much, with the lights turning off an hour early this morning (going by what I know from this evening) it's better than having a dark period of LESS than 12 hours iirc and one day of a 20 minute burst followed by 40 minutes of dark and then back to regular schedule...I'm hoping that's not going to be significant but I sure didn't want to stress her any more than I already have...

Keep throwing that crown on her... I'd really like to see her wear that again.

Done!

New light rack on the right...no reflector, gotta leave it open for airflow and since her temps are already on the warm side I decided to move her a bit to the left for slightly cooler temps. Didn't work lol. I actually had to turn them off last night after about an hour. I got up to check my phone and noticed the temp had swung up to almost 88F at the top of the buds

1...2...3...4...5...6...7...8...9... ...20...21...22...23...24...25...26... ...28...any guesses?

And a size comparison...ye ole 2L soda bottle again!