lazyfish
Well-Known Member
Wow. A lot happened just now and I'm not sure of any of it???
Landrace Genetics 101
- Thread starter Conradino23
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TheFertilizer
Well-Known Member
Yeah, that whole part sounded non-sense. Was just checking to make sure he wasn't spouting common knowledge that I just didn't realize was a thing.
Love my Panama x Malawi so far. Not enough experience enough to tell if it's a sativa from an indica, but it's great weed. Honestly I kind of expected more stretch and more thinner/narrow leaves, so I think that's what gave me pause that there might be something to what he was saying.
Well it is a 50/50 indica/Sativa cross so it will have some indica traits popping up. Some phenos more than others.
My bad it should be 100% Sativa
TheFertilizer
Well-Known Member
Yeah, mine tend to have some pretty broad leaves, but then again I've seen other sativas on ACE's site with much more narrower leaves than the PxM.
But anyway I found out those that guy was! Just some looney tune that is going around bashing ACE on IC too. He fancies himself a "preservationist" and thinks he can track the lineage of different strains by digging up forum posts where growers/breeders trade cuts. Priceless
Lol he’s all of 14 years old no doubt
Then there's a thing called genetics... recent studies by some prominent scientists say genetics can be influenced by bacteria...
Instead of kill or be killed survival of the fittest, it could be merge together to make a new whole with best of both worlds living symbiotically in the same cell.
Symbiogenesis... could throw these ideas on genetics a different twist.
Just a little food for thought!
Book:
Symbiotic Planet: A New Look At Evolution By Lynn Margulis ... (Prolly some weasel crakin' nut case.)
I haven't read this book yet.. but I'm somewhat familiar with bacteria ...
Seeds are where the coin is with cannabis ... for now. Everybody is scrambling to find the gold.. All good. Gotta expect some greedy people are at play in the play ground. It's very difficult to weed them out ( <-- see what I did there? a little punny!).
At the end of the day, right now... its time to take a puff, relax ... and laugh! (while listening to some good tunes - highly recommended).. oooh I did another punny.
Stoner genetics it's what's for ..... munchies.
You like the weed... start a fire! Pass it on ---> --->
Instead of kill or be killed survival of the fittest, it could be merge together to make a new whole with best of both worlds living symbiotically in the same cell.
Symbiogenesis... could throw these ideas on genetics a different twist.
Just a little food for thought!
Book:
Symbiotic Planet: A New Look At Evolution By Lynn Margulis ... (Prolly some weasel crakin' nut case.)
I haven't read this book yet.. but I'm somewhat familiar with bacteria ...
Seeds are where the coin is with cannabis ... for now. Everybody is scrambling to find the gold.. All good. Gotta expect some greedy people are at play in the play ground. It's very difficult to weed them out ( <-- see what I did there? a little punny!).
At the end of the day, right now... its time to take a puff, relax ... and laugh! (while listening to some good tunes - highly recommended).. oooh I did another punny.
Stoner genetics it's what's for ..... munchies.
You like the weed... start a fire! Pass it on ---> --->
Fwiw, I think there is some indica in the Panama background- if we want to assume the sativa/indica dividing line can always be clear - which...I don't know.
I know they call it a blend of three sativas, but I also read it mentioned elsewhere- buried either on Ace's site or a comment by Dubi - some remark about the plant being part indica.
Most importantly (to me) the high, at least of the pheno I've grown, is quite indica. Too indica that is... And it looks and feeds closer to indica than any other pure sativas I've grown. The only sativa I've grown that is described as a 'heavy feeder'.
I know they call it a blend of three sativas, but I also read it mentioned elsewhere- buried either on Ace's site or a comment by Dubi - some remark about the plant being part indica.
Most importantly (to me) the high, at least of the pheno I've grown, is quite indica. Too indica that is... And it looks and feeds closer to indica than any other pure sativas I've grown. The only sativa I've grown that is described as a 'heavy feeder'.
Who?
I was wonderin where I go the Weaselcracker from.... yeah was you!
Lynn Margulis - she's one of the smart ones... first husband was Carl Sagan.
She bucked the science "traditionalists" and raised a few good questions about genetics. Those questions are still in play.
Good read:
Endosymbiosis: Lynn Margulis
Thanks for the reference to Margulis @bobrown14 
Yer welcome... instead of mutant into superior life form, she looked at evolution (and genetics) very differently than most. Now being backed up as we unfold the DNA profiles of living things.
It's a pretty cool thing that we went from plants and animals to:
Archae - Bacteria - Eukarya
Humans and plants being way down at the very end of Eukarya. This all happened in my lifetime so imagine what we dont know yet.
Being that we humans are 90 some percent bacteria.. makes me wonder ... natural selection may not have had that big a hand in evolution and genetics. Changes may happen differently than we were taught.
It's a pretty cool thing that we went from plants and animals to:
Archae - Bacteria - Eukarya
Humans and plants being way down at the very end of Eukarya. This all happened in my lifetime so imagine what we dont know yet.
Being that we humans are 90 some percent bacteria.. makes me wonder ... natural selection may not have had that big a hand in evolution and genetics. Changes may happen differently than we were taught.
yesum
Well-Known Member
So conradino23, is the CG '72 still your favorite of the heirlooms? I hear good things about the Manipuri. The Kerala was a mild disappointment for me.Alchimiaweb for sure has them. I was looking at their stock the other day... still have my 7 beans, but I saw they released a three way Pakistani cross with Pine Tar Kush in the middle... sounded nice
Two different Panama Reds going, some Mexicans, Cambodian, Acapulco Gold. Gonna flip them next week.
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Conradino23
Well-Known Member
Yeah probably. I intend to run it indoor with sth else side by side maybe Golden Tiger.
Someone was talking recently about how cannabis is so much more genetically diverse than it used to be. I disagreed. Then he disagreed with me disagreeing. Not only that, he Laughed his Ass completely Off, which I feel bad about and I hope he managed to reattach it.
And now that I think about it more- maybe he’s totally right. Or it’s possible we are both right but looking at it in different ways. Apples and oranges. Or I may well be just plain wrong.
If I think of a breeder created strain as a food dish, the land races would be the ingredients.
And it seems to me that there are less of the basic ingredients available now than in the past, as a few landraces and some heirloom strains have been bred out of existence. Where is Panama Red, and what happened to the real Skunk smell, and where did the extreme pine scented Christmas bud go?
Can they be recreated? I suppose given time they can.
But on the other hand, a huge amount of work has been done with the basic ingredients that we do still have, to make the most of them and enhance whatever flavours they contain, as well as bred for higher CBD,THC, and whatever.
So maybe we have less to work with but have done a lot more work with what we do have.
Does this amount to ‘ greater genetic diversity’. I don’t know.
I’ve been living with a botanist friend for the last week or so. He keeps telling me that overall plant diversity is shrinking rapidly, and even though there’s more general availability of fancy houseplants and whatnot, that we may not have seen before, in reality there is much less overall divergence.
So maybe that’s partly why I wrote that post, because I tended to agree with him, and I’m biased because I tend to like the strains that are closer to landrace more than I like the the flavour of the month strains or even most well-established concocted strains.
Anyway- what do you guys think?
And now that I think about it more- maybe he’s totally right. Or it’s possible we are both right but looking at it in different ways. Apples and oranges. Or I may well be just plain wrong.
If I think of a breeder created strain as a food dish, the land races would be the ingredients.
And it seems to me that there are less of the basic ingredients available now than in the past, as a few landraces and some heirloom strains have been bred out of existence. Where is Panama Red, and what happened to the real Skunk smell, and where did the extreme pine scented Christmas bud go?
Can they be recreated? I suppose given time they can.
But on the other hand, a huge amount of work has been done with the basic ingredients that we do still have, to make the most of them and enhance whatever flavours they contain, as well as bred for higher CBD,THC, and whatever.
So maybe we have less to work with but have done a lot more work with what we do have.
Does this amount to ‘ greater genetic diversity’. I don’t know.
I’ve been living with a botanist friend for the last week or so. He keeps telling me that overall plant diversity is shrinking rapidly, and even though there’s more general availability of fancy houseplants and whatnot, that we may not have seen before, in reality there is much less overall divergence.
So maybe that’s partly why I wrote that post, because I tended to agree with him, and I’m biased because I tend to like the strains that are closer to landrace more than I like the the flavour of the month strains or even most well-established concocted strains.
Anyway- what do you guys think?
That's an interesting question, one I've thought about quite a bit. I want to sample the foundational strains, the ones before all the blending and mixing. Most landraces weren't very potent or particularly appealing, but the legendary ones were. So I've been hunting the purest strains I can find - like Utopia Haze, an inbred Brazilian. Ace Seeds has also been good at preserving the original character of their strains, and I've run quite a few of those, so I've been able to identify what makes cannabis from one region different from others.
So my quest has been for the standout unimproved weeds.
But genetic diversity? One could define that in two ways and satisfy each approach. Back when there were hundreds of thousands of landrace stands of cannabis around the world, that might be defined as maximum diversity. But now we've bred them all together and produced brand new genetics, so there's even more diversity. But blending eventually produces mediocrity. And the landraces are steadily disappearing. This is not a healthy trend.
On the other hand, the new genetics are typically superior in taste and potency to everything but the best landraces.
I'd like to see more breeding to reinforce landrace traits, and less to produce potent sticky unremarkable strains.
These true Hazes I've been smoking lately have given me a whole new outlook on landraces. An Oldtimers Haze is nothing like a Brazilian, or a Mexican or a Panama, etc. Mexican and Panama are similar, and Colombian Gold and Brazilian are similar, but a true Haze is remarkably different. Africans like Malawi and Zamal have their own character, too, as well as the southeast Asians.
But then, almost no one I know cares a rip about what kind of pot it is. I keep asking and they keep not knowing. *shrug*
So my quest has been for the standout unimproved weeds.
But genetic diversity? One could define that in two ways and satisfy each approach. Back when there were hundreds of thousands of landrace stands of cannabis around the world, that might be defined as maximum diversity. But now we've bred them all together and produced brand new genetics, so there's even more diversity. But blending eventually produces mediocrity. And the landraces are steadily disappearing. This is not a healthy trend.
On the other hand, the new genetics are typically superior in taste and potency to everything but the best landraces.
I'd like to see more breeding to reinforce landrace traits, and less to produce potent sticky unremarkable strains.
These true Hazes I've been smoking lately have given me a whole new outlook on landraces. An Oldtimers Haze is nothing like a Brazilian, or a Mexican or a Panama, etc. Mexican and Panama are similar, and Colombian Gold and Brazilian are similar, but a true Haze is remarkably different. Africans like Malawi and Zamal have their own character, too, as well as the southeast Asians.
But then, almost no one I know cares a rip about what kind of pot it is. I keep asking and they keep not knowing.
*shrug*
It took me ages to edit that post into submission so there may be more babbling that you didn’t read first time GT, but you definitely gleaned the question.
Yeah, it’s my experience too. Nobody I talk to seems to know or care. Even the people who I would think should know and care.
Yeah, it’s my experience too. Nobody I talk to seems to know or care. Even the people who I would think should know and care.
TheFertilizer
Well-Known Member
I think there's kind of a difference between how genetic diversity benefits the plant species cannabis and how it benefits us as humans and the ways we use it. I mean, for example, just look at Girl Scout Cookies. There's dozens and dozens of crosses being created with it, and they do have subtle differences that merit the flavor of the month names and strains (sometimes) enough to call them "different" and count that as diversity, and that's the kind of diversity that benefits us.
Or maybe not, because they are so genetically similar that point, with only minor differences, that if there were some kind of disease or virus that were wiping out cannabis, then if one GSC cross was susceptible to it, then all of those slightly-nuanced crosses of it would be too. So imagine if every GSC derivative or variant was susceptible to a certain kind of blight, it would be an epidemic in grow rooms.
Actually, for all we know that may have already happened. There are some people who raise conspiracy theories about highway transportation departments spreading out mites in the hopes of crippling cannabis crops, and they reason that because the mites damage such a wide variety of strains that they must be specifically engineered to target cannabis. On the other hand, it could be that the genetic diversity of the cannabis cultivars being grown is so limited that they all have the same high susceptibility to the mites.
Or maybe not, because they are so genetically similar that point, with only minor differences, that if there were some kind of disease or virus that were wiping out cannabis, then if one GSC cross was susceptible to it, then all of those slightly-nuanced crosses of it would be too. So imagine if every GSC derivative or variant was susceptible to a certain kind of blight, it would be an epidemic in grow rooms.
Actually, for all we know that may have already happened. There are some people who raise conspiracy theories about highway transportation departments spreading out mites in the hopes of crippling cannabis crops, and they reason that because the mites damage such a wide variety of strains that they must be specifically engineered to target cannabis. On the other hand, it could be that the genetic diversity of the cannabis cultivars being grown is so limited that they all have the same high susceptibility to the mites.
Many governments have worked for a long time to eradicate cannabis. And apparently that is actually one of the leading causes of reduction in diversity. Even while we all work away like mad scientists in our separate grow rooms mixing and blending to create more (?) diversity.
But I would think it would be the landraces that contain the magic solutions to various problems like drought, flood, disease, and pests, as they’ve evolved themselves into their niches over time.
But I would think it would be the landraces that contain the magic solutions to various problems like drought, flood, disease, and pests, as they’ve evolved themselves into their niches over time.
Disappearing landrace strains is a problem but it will take a lot of time. Then cannabis left to her own devices to revert back eventually from all the mucking about with the genetics humans are doing.
All we have to do is look to what humans have done with other plants like Wheat and tomatoes. Tomatoes are very telling as humans took plants and turned them into a tomato plant from something different. Wheat we took advantage of a polytaxy version (mutation breeding) of it and bred that and let go of many of the traditional strains.
Wheat is traditionally produced with landrace strains. By "traditionally" NOT by Europeans or western world. The traditional method is to cross the landrace strains and run them 10 generations... then they call it done and release the seeds like that.
How many cannabis cultivators are doing it this way? There are a few breeders out there. Why I'm looking for them and buy up the seed if I can.
All this breed "selection" we are doing in the last 30 years or so with cannabis, the net result is less genetic diversity. This type of selection I think is market driven.
The proper way would be not market driven but culturally driven - meaning we select for disease/pests resistance and overall health and try and blend in the other properties we like say higher THC and terpines. Interestingly the terpines may go hand in hand with disease/pest resistance. Surly NOT to attract humans, we are the ultimate "pest" for these plants. chop chop....