Jon's Dedicated Fruity Pebble Cookies Grow Plus The Mystery Plant

[Jon]

Mystery Plant
Flower Day 6

As she stretches this girl looks more and more like a regular pot plant. Finally completely back to five-pointed leaves, and she's beginning to toss actual pistils instead of the individual ones that never stopped through the reveg. Another thing that has never (and at this point apparently is not going to) gone back to normal is the nodes. I expected at some point she would get back to nodes where the leaves come out at the same spot. Nope. She has stayed with alternating nodes since the reveg and never got back to the other way. You can almost begin to see where the actual bud is going to form on these odd, thinnish stems that are everywhere. I still say I won't be surprised to see a cherry tomato plant at the end with just little bud balls on the end of each little branch. It should look quite interesting in a couple weeks.

And yes, I continue to watch like a hawk on a mission for any signs of hermie on this plant.

Here's a shot of her canopy, zoomed from the back side, showing most of it. A few colas in the lower right are from Fulvia, there's no way to get any of the plants in a frame without overlap at this point.

 

[Azimuth]

Another thing that has never (and at this point apparently is not going to) gone back to normal is the nodes. I expected at some point she would get back to nodes where the leaves come out at the same spot. Nope. She has stayed with alternating nodes since the reveg and never got back to the other way.

Opposite facing nodes are a sign of an immature plant. Like a kid that finally goes thru puberty, there's no turning back no matter how often they try to reinvent themselves. They're never going back to the toddler stage.

 

[Jon]

Opposite facing nodes are a sign of an immature plant. Like a kid that finally goes thru puberty, there's no turning back no matter how often they try to reinvent themselves. They're never going back to the toddler stage.

Thanks Azi! So if this plant had not been a reveg and had just grown like the others in the tent, it would look totally normal, right? When it started to flower outdoors it had gotten to the point of alternating nodes and at that point when I sent it to reveg there was no turning the clock back on this "puberty" age thing? Is that about what you're saying?

 

[Jon]

Opposite facing nodes are a sign of an immature plant. Like a kid that finally goes thru puberty, there's no turning back no matter how often they try to reinvent themselves. They're never going back to the toddler stage.

Also, does this mean the buds will look stringy and small and immature too? That's what I expect to be honest.

 

[farside05]

One thing I have noticed about the Phototone app - other things can skew your readings too. It's useless for the outdoor rig during the daytime because the ambient sunlight mixed with the blurple light completely confuses the software. Lol. Also, there are certain LEDs that are "full spectrum" that do not register accurately in the Full Spectrum setting. A few you have to use Red/Blue despite the light being full spectrum. My good light is such a light, due to it's high red and blue peaks and relatively lower greens than many LEDs.

I've been up and down the pike with this app. I love it. Other than an Apogee I think it's the next best thing, and WAY cheaper!!

I've never had any success with any App (Photone included) on three different android devices, when compared to my lux meter. And that's with a known singular spectrum (3500k). I know it's 3500k because I built it myself and only used 3500k strips.

I've seen an article where they tested an Apogee vs the Photone app on various devices. Photone on an iPhone12 was about 10% low, and that's using the paper diffuser you're instructed to use for the iOS version. On the Android version you are never instructed to use a paper filter, and if you try you get a message that says something to the effect of "It looks like you're using a filter. Remove the filter and try again.". Results on Android phones were as much as 50% low.

I guess what I'm saying in short is, Photone might be an option for iOS users, Android users beware. Probably best to get a $30 lux meter if you're an Android user. There's recommended lux levels for different stage plants available on Royal Queens website if you go the lux meter route.

 

[Jon]

I've never had any success with any App (Photone included) on three different android devices, when compared to my lux meter. And that's with a known singular spectrum (3500k). I know it's 3500k because I built it myself and only used 3500k strips.

I've seen an article where they tested an Apogee vs the Photone app on various devices. Photone on an iPhone12 was about 10% low, and that's using the paper diffuser you're instructed to use for the iOS version. On the Android version you are never instructed to use a paper filter, and if you try you get a message that says something to the effect of "It looks like you're using a filter. Remove the filter and try again.". Results on Android phones were as much as 50% low.

I guess what I'm saying in short is, Photone might be an option for iOS users, Android users beware. Probably best to get a $30 lux meter if you're an Android user. There's recommended lux levels for different stage plants available on Royal Queens website if you go the lux meter route.

Thanks @farside05. I hear you. I personally have found the accuracy of the app using the iPhone 11 to be significantly better than 10% +/-. When I first got it I tested all my lights against the light's printed par charts. (I like to think in terms of ppfd rather than Lux. Same thing in effect, it just seems easier to my brain) Any test I did when I was able to duplicate the same size tent used in the charts I got numbers that were within 5% of the printed chart numbers across the board. In fact, my one good light actually overperformed their own numbers slightly, and I got proof of that after I burned a few plants.

I have heard several people register the same complaint about Android and this app. And I agree, there's no app on earth as good as a real lux meter, and I could easily get one that only did lux and do the conversions if I didn't want to convert my brain. Lol. Just haven't been able to justify the expense yet.

 

[Azimuth]

Thanks Azi! So if this plant had not been a reveg and had just grown like the others in the tent, it would look totally normal, right? When it started to flower outdoors it had gotten to the point of alternating nodes and at that point when I sent it to reveg there was no turning the clock back on this "puberty" age thing? Is that about what you're saying?

Exactly like that.

 

[Azimuth]

Also, does this mean the buds will look stringy and small and immature too? That's what I expect to be honest.

I've never successfully revealed a plant so don't know. The plant structure is supposed to be much bushier though, is that what you're seeing on that one?

 

[Azimuth]

Probably best to get a $30 lux meter if you're an Android user.

Any brand or model recommendations?

 

[Jon]

Saturday Morning Sun Shots and Comparison Discussion
Jack Herer Auto
Zkittlez Auto
Day 31

I love the way the plants look for a few hours each morning between around 7-9 am when they get tons of sun shining directly on them at a low angle. I don't turn off the blurple except for the pictures, as in this one, and this is how much sun mixes with the blurple for those couple hours. They seem to glow almost. It looks so cool.

As you can see our Jack, which trailed behind the Zkittlez for 31 days, has finally caught up and tied her in height. Pfft. Height. I'll bet a trillion dollars this Jack plant outyields the Zkittlez significantly. The height isn't relevant. Just look at the thickness of the stems as compared to the Zkittlez. Look at the huge difference in fan leaves. This Jack is a real plant. The Zkittlez is just messing around. I am SO glad I made the call to give the 5 to the Jack and let the Zkittlez have the 3 (all the soil I had to use at the time, had to decide at uppotting which one would get which). One might think the difference in pot size accounts for the difference in development between the two plants. Maybe that will show itself later on, but at this point both girls' roots have plenty of space to play still, so that's not it. The Jack is simply bigger, and would be even if I had trained it the exact same way.

You can also see my two favorite (currently) auto training methodologies in this picture. Simply put, on the left is the Zkittlez with her flat, evenly spaced canopy of just colas. Call this "scrog style" training if you like, I do. On the right is the Jack, with her mains intact up top and a ring of sorts pulled out to the side framing it, using multiple toppings as the primary LST method. This is more reminiscent of Titan's training in the 3x3. I honestly believe my yields are better training autos as the Jack is trained vs. the way the Zkittlez is trained.

Lastly, the picture of the mains up top is to show you that my topping of them is going to work out very well. Just look at how pronounced the new growth at the topping point became in just 24 hours. Still only a few rouge pistils beginning to pop on the Jack, she still has days for them and the other toppings to grow out appreciably.

There you have my take on these two. Happy Saturday. Sorry Canadian Toronto Raptors basketball fans, we will be bidding you a farewell to the playoffs today starting at 2. Maybe Embiid will win it with another Shot Heard Round the World!

 

[Jon]

I've never successfully revealed a plant so don't know. The plant structure is supposed to be much bushier though, is that what you're seeing on that one?

I'm going to pull her outside and post a sunshot in a bit so we can get a good look at her. She's the only one I can take out and put back, lol. I'll tag you. Maybe you can tell me then what you see?

 

[farside05]

have heard several people register the same complaint about Android and this app. And I agree, there's no app on earth as good as a real lux meter, and I could easily get one that only did lux and do the conversions if I didn't want to convert my brain. Lol. Just haven't been able to justify the expense yet.

There's not really any conversions (math) that you have to do. Just follow these guidelines:

HOW MUCH LIGHT DO YOUR CANNABIS PLANTS REQUIRE?​

• Clones and seedlings: 5,000–7,000 lux
• Vegetative growth: 15,000–50,000 lux
• Flowering: 45,000–65,000 lux
• Maximum recommended amount of light: 75,000 lux

Any brand or model recommendations?

I've got a Urceri that I got on Amazon. It works fine. If I had it to do over though, I might choose one of the 2 piece meters where the sensor and the display are attached via a cord instead of a single unit. It can be a bit difficult to read the display when it's under the bright lights. Being able to hold the display outside the tent in one hand while using the other hand to maneuver the sensor under the light would solve that problem. The 2 piece meters are only about $6 more ($30 vs $36 USD).

 

[Verbalist]

Here's the thing on the par charts - they don't give you one for a 3x3. In that size tent you can get the ppfd at plant height into the 2000s. It's really more of a 4x4 light, it just destroys a 3x3. Just the way I like it. The chart you posted and all the ones nextlight has don't cover it. You can't just take a 4x4 par map and look at what's happening in the 3x3 space on the map, it doesn't work like that. When the walls are AT 3' the map changes significantly.

The first PAR map at 18" from the floor distance is actually measured in 3x3 area 36x36" or thats at least what theyre stating.

And notice when you’re measuring the PPF Density AKA PPFD with Photone it is: Umol/m2/s

Micromole: per second and square meter (µmol m-2 s-1). This term is based on the number of photons in a certain waveband incident per unit time (s) on a unit area (m2) divided by the Avogadro constant (6.022 x 1023 mol-1). It is used commonly to describe PAR in the 400-700 nm waveband.

So when you take a mesurement from the center/hot spot you want - it’s for one square metre (m2).
(1 square) meter = 3.2808399 feet
And
1 (square foot) = 0.09290304 m2

And NextLight’s PAR maps PPF measurements are divided in 6x6" footprints.
In their PAR maps they messure PPF for photosynthetically active photons per second ”1234Umol/s” for the desired areas.
PPF:

The PPF or Photosynthetic Photon Flux is the total amount of light in the PAR zone that is produced by a light source each second.

PPF Density/PPFD:

The Photosynthetic Photon Flux Density (PPFD) measures the light that actually arrives at the crop canopy in the Par zone. The PPFD is expressed in μmol/s.m²

So thats when the light distribution, distance and physical positioning of the lamp takes place when measuring PPFD.

E: Gotta say something about this

There's not really any conversions (math) that you have to do. Just follow these guidelines:

HOW MUCH LIGHT DO YOUR CANNABIS PLANTS REQUIRE?​

• Clones and seedlings: 5,000–7,000 lux
• Vegetative growth: 15,000–50,000 lux
• Flowering: 45,000–65,000 lux
• Maximum recommended amount of light: 75,000 lux

Thats a good range of luxes if the lamp provides the whole needed PAR 400-700nm.
But if you would have for an example ,let’s say 600W CMH bulb and your cannabis plants were flowering. And let’s say the CMH bulb provides about 65000lux at desired distance but the CMH bulb is 6000K color temp which is commly used spectrum for veg growth. Therefore luxes can’t really be the only value measured from the light on the basis of which a graph is created.

 

[Jon]

There's not really any conversions (math) that you have to do. Just follow these guidelines:

HOW MUCH LIGHT DO YOUR CANNABIS PLANTS REQUIRE?​

• Clones and seedlings: 5,000–7,000 lux
• Vegetative growth: 15,000–50,000 lux
• Flowering: 45,000–65,000 lux
• Maximum recommended amount of light: 75,000 lux

I've got a Urceri that I got on Amazon. It works fine. If I had it to do over though, I might choose one of the 2 piece meters where the sensor and the display are attached via a cord instead of a single unit. It can be a bit difficult to read the display when it's under the bright lights. Being able to hold the display outside the tent in one hand while using the other hand to maneuver the sensor under the light would solve that problem. The 2 piece meters are only about $6 more ($30 vs $36 USD).

Thanks @farside05. I have my own chart like that, divided into seedling, early veg, late veg, early flower, late flower, maximum, just using ppfd instead of lux. I haven't converted my numbers on my version of this chart yet, so I don't know how mine would correspond to this. Is this something you found or your personal numbers? I see "found" info like this all the time and never agree with any of them. All too low at every stage most of the time. Although I do agree with your max. The conversion comes out to 1926.71 umol/s/m2. That's approximately what my good light and this 420h put out in their respective sized tents. And very rarely would I use all that, if ever.

 

[Jon]

The first PAR map at 18" from the floor distance is actually measured in 3x3 area 36x36" or thats at least what theyre stating.

And notice when you’re measuring the PPF Density AKA PPFD with Photone it is: Umol/m2/s

So when you take a mesurement from the center/hot spot you want - it’s for one square metre (m2).
(1 square) meter = 3.2808399 feet
And
1 (square foot) = 0.09290304 m2

And NextLight’s PAR maps PPF measurements are divided in 6x6" footprints.
In their PAR maps they messure PPF for photosynthetically active photons per second ”1234Umol/s” for the desired areas.
PPF:


PPF Density/PPFD:


So thats when the light distribution, distance and physical positioning of the lamp takes place when measuring PPFD.

Got this. See my most recent post. That should make you happier. Lol.

 

[Jon]

The first PAR map at 18" from the floor distance is actually measured in 3x3 area 36x36" or thats at least what theyre stating.

And notice when you’re measuring the PPF Density AKA PPFD with Photone it is: Umol/m2/s

So when you take a mesurement from the center/hot spot you want - it’s for one square metre (m2).
(1 square) meter = 3.2808399 feet
And
1 (square foot) = 0.09290304 m2

And NextLight’s PAR maps PPF measurements are divided in 6x6" footprints.
In their PAR maps they messure PPF for photosynthetically active photons per second ”1234Umol/s” for the desired areas.
PPF:


PPF Density/PPFD:


So thats when the light distribution, distance and physical positioning of the lamp takes place when measuring PPFD.

@Verbalist, my thing is that one can think in terms of Lux, ppfd, or DLI. It's all the same thing with the same goal: to find the max light you can safely give at any moment of growth and learn how to operate within that max. From what I've seen, Shed and West Hippie for example think in terms of DLI. You and others seem to like to think in terms of Lux. I'm a ppfd/Umol/m2/s guy. All of us are trying to achieve the same thing. You know?

 

[Verbalist]

I don't understand why they say the map you showed is a 3x3 map when it's clearly a 3.5 x 3.5 map.

The numbers on the chart you showed are about what I have going on right now. The lower ring corresponds well to the edge numbers here, as do the hot spot numbers. Only I have those numbers in the 3x3, at 9" above the top of the plant, and with the light at approximately 50% power.

Ye it can be 3.5x3.5 map but measured in 3x3 area I guess then …if they haven’t just copied it somewhere lol.

And yes on the map they measured PPF and you’ve measured PPFD in your tent. Thats why your lamp distance, positining and output power gives different results.

Got this. See my most recent post. That should make you happier. Lol.

@Verbalist, my thing is that one can think in terms of Lux, ppfd, or DLI. It's all the same thing with the same goal: to find the max light you can safely give at any moment of growth and learn how to operate within that max. From what I've seen, Shed and West Hippie for example think in terms of DLI. You and others seem to like to think in terms of Lux. I'm a ppfd/Umol/m2/s guy. All of us are trying to achieve the same thing. You know?

And don’t get me wrong brother! Not tryna argue or teach anything here.

I just wanted to share my thoughts and some study that I found regarding whats the optimal amount of light for the plants.
All PPFD, luxes and DLI reffers to same thing, they are units, but different ones that measure the optimal light for plants. And yes reffers to achieve best possible results.

 

[Jon]

Ye it can be 3.5x3.5 map but measured in 3x3 area I guess then …if they haven’t just copied it somewhere lol.

And yes on the map they measured PPF and you’ve measured PPFD in your tent. Thats why your lamp distance, positining and output power gives different results.




And don’t get me wrong brother! Not tryna argue or teach anything here.

I just wanted to share my thoughts and some study that I found regarding whats the optimal amount of light for the plants.
All PPFD, luxes and DLI reffers to same thing, they are units, but different ones that measure the optimal light for plants. And yes reffers to achieve best possible results.

Not getting you wrong brother, I promise! Just an interesting discussion sharing thoughts and information on light and how little we both know. I don't "know" you by any means, but I know you well enough to know you're not an argumentative dick, lol. I also never assume I'm set in stone right (except maybe about not putting an auto in a 3, lol) and always try my best to stay open to new info or a different perspective. I am also not trying to teach or be right here, just sharing my deal and hoping it spurns discussion as it has! I also try to remember that just maybe there's someone reading this who benefits from our discussion.

 

[Jon]

Titan
Day 47

Just one picture of the lower ring action. It appears to me they're getting plenty of light to make real buds, which was my only slight concern in deciding to train this way.

EDIT: ok, I lied. One more pic to show the whole girl. Lol.

 

[Azimuth]

I also try to remember that just maybe there's someone reading this who benefits from our discussion.

You looking at me?