Increasing yield with defoliation indoors: What's it mean? How to do it?

[DrFever]

i just find that when i take leaves every few days it slows growth for a loner period,
i found lower branches soon became taller than the main stem, so i find removing leaves in one go tends to make the plant recover quicker, but this could be strain related,

so each to their own i guess, i just prefer to do it once or twice in veg and the same in flower.
i just find the plants recover quicker and its less stress on the plants as your not taking leaves each day or every other day, but like everything else, their are many different theories and methods, look at light schedule for instance,
so what works well for one might not work so well for others,

l I am thinking you are absolutely right it slows growth down, but it also stresses plant out more then LST least lst your leaving your leafs on and training plant slowly was anything ever mentioned about unstable strain that defoilating will probably hermie the plant ????
it would be wiser to just LST , Fim , and super crop a plant growth rates are still fast and yields are better lollipop your girls strip lower part of plant where light penetration gives you pop corn buds here is a couple of girls with good branching lol 14 days old in 5 gallon prior to transplanting into 34 gallon totes then what they look at @ 30 days those are 13 - 18 oz dry plants look at the stalks like outdoor grown and 12 plants in 5 x 15 which gave me 7 pounds 4 oz dry
also another 12 plant estimated yield 8 - 12 pounds scrog style with all lower bud sites and branched removed pic number 3- 4 is one plant top views that my friends is making a pound a plant

Hey Bassy i will be starting up a another room shortly 100 watts per Sq foot 1 LEP plasma's between 2 1000 watt Gavita's 5 LEP pro plasma and 10,000 watt gavita goal is 20 - 25 pounds 24 plants

 

[crashnfool]

Hey Guys... I have no pics... I have been way too busy.... The Cannatonic that I tried first with eventually only gave 8 oz... But it did well enough to make me go full bore on the rest!!!!! I will have pics of the next set soon... Thanks again and tell all your friends this is the way to get IMPROVED yield!!!!

 

[Bassman59]

As usual, DrFever only responds to how his way is always the only way and the better way. I've seen hundreds of his posts elsewhere capping on other's methods.

Notice DRfever you're mentioning 100 watts sqft. That's a huge advantage over what most people are able to do at home indoors. And around here @420mag, most are not commercial growers, but trying to do the best they can for their personal needs/circumstance. If I recall correctly didn't that grow above end already and wasn't it way under estimations? How's that 9 month tree grow going?

Gosh, what's all this I hear from you about defoliating and hermie's? I'll be chopping my 6th or 7th (can't recall) grow using high defoliation starting today and I have yet to see a hermie. Please don't expound in my thread on that which you have not tried sufficiently and have no experience in.

I do wish you the best in your Gavita grow though.

This is day 35 of 70 in 12/12 and about 12-13 days after a defoliation. I'll be yanking more fan leaves off in about 10 days. Sorry for the lousy quality pics.

Not bad for only 35 days. and that photo down low shows all thumb size buds 2 feet below the canopy.

 

[fault]

how often are you allowed to bend a branch/plant. and is there a time zone where in wont effect the yeild. im on my first grow and i didnt bend and i can see it could really help. im in a 2x3x5

 

[Bassman59]

Bending in itself has little to do with yield. We bend to effect light getting to it or other branches. A perfect example is a full on xmas tree shaped plant. Lets say the main branch/cola is 8" taller than the next tallest pair or more of branches.

Now, lets pretend we're in week 4 of flower and stretch just ended. Our plant is 45" tall. We're using a 1000w hps, and the bulb is 9" above the top cola tippity-top.

That means the next branches are 17" from the bulb.

A typical 1k watt hps will be delivering 64,000 lumen at 10" away, and at 17" away it will be delivering 25,000 lumen. *Taken from our handy dandy light depth chart*

To further illustrate, at 36" away from the bulb, or at 27" in height of the plant, the 1k hps is delivering 4951 lumen on avg. So basically everything from inch #1 to inch #26 of the plant is total waste and not getting enough light to produce.

But if we BEND that top cola to a level EQUAL to the next branches, we just more than DOUBLED the amount of light being delivered to the top 25 inches of the plant instead of just 18". Now look at how much plant is under the light at 25 inches vs 18 inches in a x-mas tree shape.

Now MULTIPLY that by the number of plants per light! We suddenly have a vastly more amount of flower "in the zone".

It's all part of the process. No one thing does it all. In the above pics I have 4 plants in a 5x5 tent under a 1k watt hps and basically an even canopy. But I've also defoliated for more light penetration. And I use string, not as much as a scrog per se, but enough to manipulate tops, bends, etc for maximum light & penetration.

My girls in above pics are still too tall. I keep letting them get too tall before flipping them and I miss out on maximum penetration top-bottom but I'm getting there. In reality I need a wider veg space to apply some more lateral bending. I am harvesting 2 plants as we speak that were also too tall and with all the bending, have basically covered the area of a 4x4 tent under the raptor hood. The canopy is thick! I need to shorten my plants by one full foot at least and bend more radially. Three plants in a 4x4 or 5x5 tent is plenty and can easily completely fill the space under the light.

As far as time zone. Well bending can be done near anytime you want. However, the "knuckle recovery" may not be achieved after say week 5 in flower. The best hardening and recovery I have found is prior to week 5. But each strain/plant can be different I suppose. This doesnt mean one can't bend after week 5. Just have some string or support for the branch.

 

[Smokemupm8]

As usual Bassman is on the ball I like the way he breaks things down for every one and has given me some great remarks and ideas! As I dont SCROG - I LST, but I have basically adapted my LST to look similar to a Scrog minus the screen, I remove a bit of branching and leaf material from the lower third and base. Then as she s into flower I tether its branches into final growing positions and usually if im lucky Ill get some nice vertical branches with good cola's.
My current girl, Teresa Green has just been flipped, She was on a 17/7 schedule thru Veg, and I reduced her to 15/9 for a couple days and then to 12/12 a day or so ago. I am hoping that she wont stretch past 2ft, around 1 - 1.5ft will give me a decent plant but ideally Id want her at 6.5ft H x 4.5ft W x 2.5 D. Unfortunatley with these dimensions, I lose growth as the plant must be trained into that shape and the lower and some side branches grow stuff all really, its something Ill be rectifying when the time is right - But long as I can keep pulling over 1+lb ill get by I guess..
Sorry Im not trying to HIJAK ya page bro!! Just wanted to post an update on my last posts Just a couple snaps prior to flowering::

Most plants bases I grow look like this...

Hopefully you can make out the taller branches which form close to the base of the main stems theyre quite long after each harvest, as some grow out and up making them a bit longer.. I have removed a few branches from her since Veg, I took about 6 the other week and around 11 all up so far, plus many leaves. I dont like to trim fans that are above the 4th or so node down from the tops, But Ill stagger the leaves I trim usually too, so instead of taking 2 from 1 branch, Ill take 1 from one and 1 from its neighbour.. Sharing the work around!! I am havin some PH troubles atm Bass, it may be my meter?? Its new but at first it read around 6 ish and it was ok, but now WHAT EVER soil I stick it in it says near 8?? I even tested it on an old organic soil blend that I know is PH 5.5 - 5.8, last tested and even that read near 8? So I think I may just go from the look of the plant and its overall growth,vigour etc; Ive added some proper Organic sulphur to the top soil to reduce the PH and thats showed basically nothing too.. I have a soil PH test kit Ive not used yet so I may just take a scoop out and see what I come up with from that?
Sorry for the big ramble and pics??? Take it easy and hope all grows well for everybody Cheers and have a good one, Smokemup

 

[Bassman59]

Always good to see your plants Smokeumm8.

Get some calibration fluid friend! I bought a new meter a while back and 1 liter of calibration fluid. I calibrate mine about every 2 weeks, and the cap has a little sponge in it. After every use, the cap goes on and it has the used calibration fluid in it. I'm really happy I stepped up to a slightly more expensive ph meter. But mine is for hydro so I'm not sure what brand pen to use for soil. Truncheon seems to be often used better name though.

 

[crashnfool]

Luv the node spacing SMOKEMUP8... Been super busy myself these days, but things are going great!!!

 

[Smokemupm8]

AHAA, Calibration fluid!!! THANKING YOU VERY MUCHLY FOR THAT!!!!!!
Seems to be what i may need, and I know what you mean about paying for a better PH/light/ppm meter.. Better for accuracy but I have been told by a supplier of units that cost $ 300 + and he said that he d only give it 12 months shelf life, no matter which item you buy?
I thought he d be keener to sell em off but that made me think about my purchase :/ lol.. Oh well Such Is Life. Smokemup

 

[spring2012]

Great info as always!!

 

[donpaul.p]

as all ways bassman your plants look great,

ive been running a couple of tests this grow with heavy defol, i had a sensi star in veg and node spacing was a couple of inches, so i then stripped the top of the plant of all fan leaves, instantly node spacing dropped to less than 1cm and the growth at the nodes started to grow like crazy, this is clearly going to give me a much bushier plant and wont end up tall like an xmas tree shape plant, i found that removing the fan leaves at the top of the main stems slows upwards growth so if you keep removing the new fan leaves that grow then upwards growth is drastically slowed and node spacing gets very tight less than 1cm between nodes, now this was just a test and i found as long as the fan leaves was removed the node spacing would stay really tight, now i only did this on the top half of the plant so the lower branches grew as normal so the plant will end up very bushy,

but ive been thinking, what if all fan leaves where constantly removed, ok it will prolong the grow we know this, but if all the side branches and main stem kept having their fan leaves clipped then this would mean every branch would have really close node spacing, it would mean a longer grow period and thats understandable, but would it produce really big buds due to all the nodes been really close, all the buds would in theory join up and instead of having a few buds on each branch you would have just one bud that is the length of the branch, so would this produce some huge buds with no gaps between the buds.

what i have found is that on my other plant that ive used defol on is the node growth seems to be much quicker and plants seem to buh out a whole lot quicker, i remove all the leaves on one go so its not stressed over a long period but the plants soon bounce back and new growth seems to be more aggressive, this may be whats going on outdoors with insects and animals, outdoors the plants are under constant attack and lose leaves and branches, so the plants respond to this with more vigourous growth, indoors plants are not under attack unless we attack them so using the defol method allows more light in and possibly makes the plant grow more aggresive so it can replace what it loses a whole lot quicker, a sort of sirvival mode if you will.

i always use a form of defol on most my plants, if a fan leaf is blocking light then i remove it, i also use lst to pull branches open and this gives instant results, if you pull a side branch out further to the sides or so its running left to right instead of growing up at an angle then the growth at the nodes on them branches tends to grow much quicker and grow upwards again giving a more bushier plant,

 

[waknbak88]

Still getting caught up, but your work has mad me feel a lot better about chopping all my leaves off on the 21st day of bloom. The part about lowering your rh is def true my plants are getting a lot more frosty since then, I just hope all these little buds swell! Awsome job your grow is inspiring to say the least I would be tickled if I got 3 ounces a plant let alone the double digits your producing.....ohh yeah I was referred by donpaul.p and he had nothing but nice things to say about you! If you find the free time stop by my journal. Later man

 

[Smokemupm8]

Hi Bass..
Guess what buddy..... Got me some Calibration fluid, and WHAMMY!!! All fixed my friend Now my meter is giving me reading other than 8.0!! Soon as Id done that I cleaned the pen up and chucked it in my soil and sure enough I got a different reading, was down to 7.3 if I recall correctly, and since adding some diluted Vinegar to some water I managed to drop the PH quickly to just on 6.7, I left it at that and am now feeding her with a PH'd solution of 6.5, will check the run off a few times and hoping in 2 weeks that the soil will maintain some stability around the 6.0 - 6.7 range...
THANK YOU FOR YOUR IDEA MATEY!! And hows this - I had a cup ( 250 ml ) of diluted vinegar in my grow space sitting there, the whole time the answer to quickly drop my PH was staring at me?? Took me until the other day when I was stoned and deep in thought and suddenly realised hang on, I remember ppl using Vinegar to add some acidity to the soil, So I Goo-googled it just in case and yeh well thats history My girl is nearing 5ftH now mate - CAN ANYBODY SAY STRETCH>>> Once she s gained some more height Ill whip out my 600w Son T Gro and kick back for the show.. Later Bass, Cheers from Smokem...

 

[Smokemupm8]

Hey DonPaul,
So you think removal of leaves causes closer node spacing?? Im not being smart ass, serious question.. I trim, but not what Id say Heavily, and I believe what controls my node spacing is the fact that I LST and change the plants normal growing method. Instead of it resembling a Pine tree, Xmas tree whatever, I grow it horizontally and its branches in turn grow vertically and they from this, also produce branchings, now these branchings are BUD BRANCHES which will fill in with buds during flower. This is how I growq my 1 -2ft long cola's..
Then I have a solid top canopy of bud usually 18" deep but topped with 3-5" buds, Below them is the popcorn small crap that doesnt get much lighting due to being on the inner or lower parts.
So when I do this, each of them vertical branches automatically forms close spacing, even if the light is raised I may have a space of 1" or so between most tops pairs of leaves.. There may be another action where heavy trimming could cause it to grow again in a different to natural manner, it would take longer IMO too - BUT as you know, my inside grows get a few extra days life than most But I love em, and experimenting with methods of growth and showing repeated results is the goal for me, I have managed to reproduce EVERYTIME the same base and branch formations. But Ive had different harvest weights due to making changes to test what Id harvest in a shorter time , and also I had the main stem snap clean in half held together by barely 3 thin fibres, LUCKY I WORK WITH GRAPE VINES! Grafting skills came in handy then! But the growth beyond that point was minimal at best so I only ended up with 12.5 Oz or so from her, Id have had possibly gotten my pound if not for that?? Teresa my current is now at 5ft 600w Sont-T gro will have to come out soo I think
Thanks again, take it easy buddy,,,SMOKEMUPM8

 

[stealthgrow]

Thanks for sharing Bassman, I plan on putting your knowledge to good use.
Congrats on the great harvest and good luck with your next grow.
+reps for the great info.

 

[Bassman59]

Thanks much stealhgrow. I wish you the best in your journey into this.

Lights are out right now, but I'm on day 48 roughly and have been doing the 45 day defoliation. I'll try to get some pics tonight just before lights on when I can turn on a cfl and get more natural lighting. I'm super impressed with my girls in flower right now. It might just be my best 4 plant high quality yield yet. Time will tell.

 

[BigIrishDoode]

 

[Bassman59]

As promised day 48 in 12/12, Holy Grail Kush. Harvest probably in the 70-78 day time frame.

Kinda hard to tell but that's about a 4x4 canopy of solid bud and it goes pretty deep.

 

[Smokemupm8]

Great work Bass!!!
Theyre surely chunky I like how theyre forming - 78 days SHOULD be plenty ( unless its a longer flowering strain ) usually by day 70 my gals start to produce a few seeds. Which in your case - Id be happy about, looks like some nice smoko..
If your on about 4x4 then you will possibly yield around the same as me ( 1 lb p/plant ) you may have more weight in yours after drying due to density, What light powerage are you using? I kno you prob answered billion times - Soz!!
Im only running my new 400w HPS atm, I have a 600w Son T Gro to use maybe in couple weeks, But it seems my 400w globe is of a decent spectrum, Not dual, But it seems to create some healthy big girls under it - my specs are 4.5ftW x 8.5ft H x 2.5ft D, So I lack some width unfortunately, but Ive LST d my girls to suit, basically making her branches grow vertically instead of outwards from main stem in a normal Pine tree shaped growing plant. Teresa is only into Day 13 of flower has so far grown over 1ft ontop of her Veg height, putting her close to the same specs as my largest producer on here - Cindy's journal..
Ok, So these arent as pretty as yours but here s some morning pics of my lil bush that could in high PH!!!!! >>>>>

Ive tried Vinegar, Lemon juice, Ph down and still - STUFF ALL!! Im still Ph'd around 7.. Well before it was like 5.0 when I poured vinegar diluted on her That wont last long tho as usual, IDK why this soil has remained Alkaline so persistantly - Geez - I could pour battery acid all over it and drip feed the soil Vinegar and still have it at 7.2?? DOH!!!
BUt 7 is considerd Neutral isnt it, I know ganja cant intake some nutes apparently at certain ranges, so Im a little stressed would peat moss added now alter the PH enough in the next few weeks if added to top soil and watered in?? Maybe I shouldve used more PH down ( sulphur powder ) it said use certain amounts for certain soil types, tho IDK what my soils classified as, there was : Sandy, Loam and some other crap.. Am I stupid for thinking " as long as I feed her the nutes she needs to maintain bud growth, She SHOULD be able to absorb some thru her root system " ??
What are your thought Bass & other guys? Has anyone done a full Org. soil grow with a PH around 7 all thru? The silly thing is, I NEVER USED TO EVER CHECK MY PH!! Not once, and my plants were fine - But now its stuck in my head IF ITS NOT 6.4 IM SCREWED!! So im checkin it constantly and worried - But I never used to, who knows it may have been way off too - But theyve all given good yields so is it really that important to have it set on a stable PH of 6.4 thru flower/Veg, Or is it possible to grow successfully in a higher PH as long as food is provided??? Got me Googling lol...
Thanks everyone, Cheers. Smokemup

 

[BigIrishDoode]

Great work Bass!!!
Theyre surely chunky I like how theyre forming - 78 days SHOULD be plenty ( unless its a longer flowering strain ) usually by day 70 my gals start to produce a few seeds. Which in your case - Id be happy about, looks like some nice smoko..
If your on about 4x4 then you will possibly yield around the same as me ( 1 lb p/plant ) you may have more weight in yours after drying due to density, What light powerage are you using? I kno you prob answered billion times - Soz!!
Im only running my new 400w HPS atm, I have a 600w Son T Gro to use maybe in couple weeks, But it seems my 400w globe is of a decent spectrum, Not dual, But it seems to create some healthy big girls under it - my specs are 4.5ftW x 8.5ft H x 2.5ft D, So I lack some width unfortunately, but Ive LST d my girls to suit, basically making her branches grow vertically instead of outwards from main stem in a normal Pine tree shaped growing plant. Teresa is only into Day 13 of flower has so far grown over 1ft ontop of her Veg height, putting her close to the same specs as my largest producer on here - Cindy's journal..
Ok, So these arent as pretty as yours but here s some morning pics of my lil bush that could in high PH!!!!! >>>>>

Ive tried Vinegar, Lemon juice, Ph down and still - STUFF ALL!! Im still Ph'd around 7.. Well before it was like 5.0 when I poured vinegar diluted on her That wont last long tho as usual, IDK why this soil has remained Alkaline so persistantly - Geez - I could pour battery acid all over it and drip feed the soil Vinegar and still have it at 7.2?? DOH!!!
BUt 7 is considerd Neutral isnt it, I know ganja cant intake some nutes apparently at certain ranges, so Im a little stressed would peat moss added now alter the PH enough in the next few weeks if added to top soil and watered in?? Maybe I shouldve used more PH down ( sulphur powder ) it said use certain amounts for certain soil types, tho IDK what my soils classified as, there was : Sandy, Loam and some other crap.. Am I stupid for thinking " as long as I feed her the nutes she needs to maintain bud growth, She SHOULD be able to absorb some thru her root system " ??
What are your thought Bass & other guys? Has anyone done a full Org. soil grow with a PH around 7 all thru? The silly thing is, I NEVER USED TO EVER CHECK MY PH!! Not once, and my plants were fine - But now its stuck in my head IF ITS NOT 6.4 IM SCREWED!! So im checkin it constantly and worried - But I never used to, who knows it may have been way off too - But theyve all given good yields so is it really that important to have it set on a stable PH of 6.4 thru flower/Veg, Or is it possible to grow successfully in a higher PH as long as food is provided??? Got me Googling lol...
Thanks everyone, Cheers. Smokemup

epsoma makes a soil acidifier blue n white bag i saw it on amh ha zohn and its a granule that will keep the ph down by slow releasing something to consider my thing sez if i order now like 30 min left id have it friday maybe you will get some similar speedyness