philthegeek
Well-Known Member
Actually, thinking about it 15psi (pretty standard for these cookers) gives 121 degrees C. That for an hour will decarb well.
Holy Tincture!
- Thread starter Onkruid
- Start date
Bucudinkydow
Well-Known Member
Decoding The Holy Grail: Terpene & Cannabinoid Retention - Decarb to Extraction
This thread has become quite lengthy but there's some good info on different decarb processes as well as terpene retention.
I've been decarbing in a sealed container now for several months, albeit in a toaster oven. I'm not sure of the advantages offered by a pressure cooker but am open minded.
I have found that a sealed mason jar is insanely insulative. I placed an oven thermometer in a sealed jar and placed it in a preheated 250f oven. At the 10 min mark it had only reached 200f and took a full 20 min to hit the ambient 250f. I think a successful decarb probably has wider parameters than we think but you may want to make adjustments using a sealed container.
Also, Terpenes are in a highly volatile gaseous state after the heating process of decarboxylation even in a sealed container. Open the container prior to a forced condensation and POOF they're gone. I place my unopened jar in the freezer for 24 hours prior to opening in hopes of reconstituting the terpenes to a solid state. Without a lab analysis, however, it's just supposition at this point.
This thread has become quite lengthy but there's some good info on different decarb processes as well as terpene retention.
I've been decarbing in a sealed container now for several months, albeit in a toaster oven. I'm not sure of the advantages offered by a pressure cooker but am open minded.
I have found that a sealed mason jar is insanely insulative. I placed an oven thermometer in a sealed jar and placed it in a preheated 250f oven. At the 10 min mark it had only reached 200f and took a full 20 min to hit the ambient 250f. I think a successful decarb probably has wider parameters than we think but you may want to make adjustments using a sealed container.
Also, Terpenes are in a highly volatile gaseous state after the heating process of decarboxylation even in a sealed container. Open the container prior to a forced condensation and POOF they're gone. I place my unopened jar in the freezer for 24 hours prior to opening in hopes of reconstituting the terpenes to a solid state. Without a lab analysis, however, it's just supposition at this point.
philthegeek
Well-Known Member
Hmmmm...
I reckon a pressure cooker will heat the jar better than an oven. Its the steam. Pretty much operates as an autoclave.
We do litre glass schott bottles for 121 / 20mins to sterilise media no probs in those. And we still have couple of pressure cookers in the lab at work for when the autoclaves are buggered.
Yup, i reckon pull the sealed jar out, let it cool on the bench, then in the freezer 24hrs. After that a dark cupboard. Stored sterile.
I reckon a pressure cooker will heat the jar better than an oven. Its the steam. Pretty much operates as an autoclave.
We do litre glass schott bottles for 121 / 20mins to sterilise media no probs in those. And we still have couple of pressure cookers in the lab at work for when the autoclaves are buggered.
Yup, i reckon pull the sealed jar out, let it cool on the bench, then in the freezer 24hrs. After that a dark cupboard. Stored sterile.
philthegeek
Well-Known Member
Have just bottled my 3rd attempt at tincture. Did this one differently. Shorter (6 hr extraction , followed by second 2hr extraction)....evaporated down to sludge....resuspend in 50ml ethanol.
Have not tried it yet, but have looked back at my notes.
First attempt was 50g leaf + 13g buds. final "ratio" was 0.086g of buds / ml tincture.
2nd attempt was 50g leaf + 16g buds. final "ratio" was 0.107g of buds / ml tincture.
3rd attempt (todays) was 16g buds only, but for a final volume of 50ml, not 150ml as in the first 2 runs.
final "ratio" was 0.32 g of buds / ml tincture.
Ok, not scientific in any way. I think the leaf actually dies make a difference. Have used the leaf before to make really good butter and brownies, and when smoked it give a nice mild, and definitely there buzz.
3rd run should be stronger than 1 or 2 i think.
Anyway, will not try it for a few days. Had a big weekend and would like to lay off a few days as
finding tolerance building up a bit i think??
I do have another about 50g of leaf in the freezer.
Next try at tincture will be pressure cooker decarb of that plus 16g bud evaporated to 50ml final volume.
Nice growing ones own. Means i can experiment with a quarter or half oz
and if its a disaster...well...dont need to cry.
Have not tried it yet, but have looked back at my notes.
First attempt was 50g leaf + 13g buds. final "ratio" was 0.086g of buds / ml tincture.
2nd attempt was 50g leaf + 16g buds. final "ratio" was 0.107g of buds / ml tincture.
3rd attempt (todays) was 16g buds only, but for a final volume of 50ml, not 150ml as in the first 2 runs.
final "ratio" was 0.32 g of buds / ml tincture.
Ok, not scientific in any way. I think the leaf actually dies make a difference. Have used the leaf before to make really good butter and brownies, and when smoked it give a nice mild, and definitely there buzz.
3rd run should be stronger than 1 or 2 i think.
Anyway, will not try it for a few days. Had a big weekend and would like to lay off a few days as
finding tolerance building up a bit i think??
I do have another about 50g of leaf in the freezer.
Next try at tincture will be pressure cooker decarb of that plus 16g bud evaporated to 50ml final volume.
Nice growing ones own. Means i can experiment with a quarter or half oz
and if its a disaster...well...dont need to cry.
Bucudinkydow
Well-Known Member
Thanx for sharing. Looking forward to a follow up report.
philthegeek
Well-Known Member
"3rd run should be stronger than 1 or 2 i think. "
Yup, got that one right.
Ok have built a bit of tolerance over the last few weeks. With the second run of my adventures in extraction it was stronger than the first but not by a huge amount. Bud and leaf involved.
Latest run bud only. But, instead of reducing it down to 150ml and making 6 x 25ml bottles i reduced to 50 ml for 2x 25ml bottles.
Second run, half a dropper under the tongue mild, pleasant buzz. 3rd run, 3 DROPS under the tongue for about the same effect. Feels quite good at the moment.
Extraction time was shorter.
Having done this latest extraction i'd see no advantage in leaving the weed in the alcohol for days or weeks. Next time will do 4hrs 1st run and maybe a half hour for a second run. Thinking about other peoples reports, if the "quick wash" methods work (although i am not convinced they are the most efficient use of the plant material), long extractions are overkill.
Next time i think will do an extraction on leaf only, take it down to 50ml and see what its like. Will decarb that in the oven so comparable to what i have done before.
After that, further runs will be evaped down to 150ml of final product. Not as strong, but with the more dilute tincture can control dose better.
And then, time to try the pressure cooker decarb. How to tell if terpenes retained though?
I'd thing that if after decarb, sealed, mostly cooled jar into the fridge, and then open for a sniff the next day. If it smells much the same as before decarb then terpenes retained??
"Yup, got that one right.
Ok have built a bit of tolerance over the last few weeks. With the second run of my adventures in extraction it was stronger than the first but not by a huge amount. Bud and leaf involved.
Latest run bud only. But, instead of reducing it down to 150ml and making 6 x 25ml bottles i reduced to 50 ml for 2x 25ml bottles.
Second run, half a dropper under the tongue mild, pleasant buzz. 3rd run, 3 DROPS under the tongue for about the same effect. Feels quite good at the moment.
Extraction time was shorter.
Having done this latest extraction i'd see no advantage in leaving the weed in the alcohol for days or weeks. Next time will do 4hrs 1st run and maybe a half hour for a second run. Thinking about other peoples reports, if the "quick wash" methods work (although i am not convinced they are the most efficient use of the plant material), long extractions are overkill.
Next time i think will do an extraction on leaf only, take it down to 50ml and see what its like. Will decarb that in the oven so comparable to what i have done before.
After that, further runs will be evaped down to 150ml of final product. Not as strong, but with the more dilute tincture can control dose better.
And then, time to try the pressure cooker decarb. How to tell if terpenes retained though?
I'd thing that if after decarb, sealed, mostly cooled jar into the fridge, and then open for a sniff the next day. If it smells much the same as before decarb then terpenes retained??
Bucudinkydow
Well-Known Member
thanx, Phil, for sharing the results of your experimentation.
"How to tell if terpenes retained though?"
Without a lab analysis it's just a seat of the pants guess. Due to legal intolerances in my states, this, unfortunately, isn't an option for me.
Doing a sealed decarb and going to the freezer for 24 hours, when I first open the container the smell is overwhelming and I've learned to carry it to the yard prior to cracking it open. It will smell nothing like the original material. The odor is reminiscent of a raunchy fart left in a closed car on a hot summers day!
I did two extractions using the same material; one conventional open decarb and the other a closed decarb with both going to the freezer for 24 hours. Giving no explanation of the difference, three compadres did a comparison test of the two and without exception avered the closed decarb was "stronger" and offered a different dimension.
I can only speculate, but until proven contrary, I'll attribute the difference to terpene retention.
I've seen you reference using a fridge to chill your material. May I suggest, if available, try using a freezer instead. Im not sure if the temps of the fridge will offer a temp low enough to cause condensation. While in the freezer, shake your jar vigorously a couple of times and you'll notice it will be lined with a fine brown dust. This is trichomes that have frozen and broken off from the plant material much the same way as dry ice hash processing. It makes the trichomes more susceptible to the ethanol extraction process.
Good luck
"How to tell if terpenes retained though?"
Without a lab analysis it's just a seat of the pants guess. Due to legal intolerances in my states, this, unfortunately, isn't an option for me.
Doing a sealed decarb and going to the freezer for 24 hours, when I first open the container the smell is overwhelming and I've learned to carry it to the yard prior to cracking it open. It will smell nothing like the original material. The odor is reminiscent of a raunchy fart left in a closed car on a hot summers day!
I did two extractions using the same material; one conventional open decarb and the other a closed decarb with both going to the freezer for 24 hours. Giving no explanation of the difference, three compadres did a comparison test of the two and without exception avered the closed decarb was "stronger" and offered a different dimension.
I can only speculate, but until proven contrary, I'll attribute the difference to terpene retention.
I've seen you reference using a fridge to chill your material. May I suggest, if available, try using a freezer instead. Im not sure if the temps of the fridge will offer a temp low enough to cause condensation. While in the freezer, shake your jar vigorously a couple of times and you'll notice it will be lined with a fine brown dust. This is trichomes that have frozen and broken off from the plant material much the same way as dry ice hash processing. It makes the trichomes more susceptible to the ethanol extraction process.
Good luck
philthegeek
Well-Known Member
"Next time i think will do an extraction on leaf only, take it down to 50ml and see what its like. Will decarb that in the oven so comparable to what i have done before."
Did this today.
26g of leaf, decarbed in the oven @ 120 degrees C for an hour.
Into Stainless french coffee press with 500ml ethanol for 9 hours (went to bed) at room temp.
Evaporated to sludge which was quite "hash" fragrant, and made up to 25ml in ethanol.
Will try it out over the next few days and see if worth while.
11/3/18:
Hmmm, post didn't go through yesterday??
ah well.
Did a decarb of 8g buds in the pressure cooker today. Unfortunatley used not so good a jar and lid popped off so not a sealed container as i wanted.
Anyhow, is in the freezer and will do an extract on it sometime soon.
Just tried a half dropper of the leaf extraction of yesterday under the tongue. Tastes seriously like the hash oil i remember from years ago and a definite mild buzz effect 10 mins later.
Did this today.
26g of leaf, decarbed in the oven @ 120 degrees C for an hour.
Into Stainless french coffee press with 500ml ethanol for 9 hours (went to bed) at room temp.
Evaporated to sludge which was quite "hash" fragrant, and made up to 25ml in ethanol.
Will try it out over the next few days and see if worth while.
11/3/18:
Hmmm, post didn't go through yesterday??
ah well.
Did a decarb of 8g buds in the pressure cooker today. Unfortunatley used not so good a jar and lid popped off so not a sealed container as i wanted.
Anyhow, is in the freezer and will do an extract on it sometime soon.Just tried a half dropper of the leaf extraction of yesterday under the tongue.
Tastes seriously like the hash oil i remember from years ago and a definite mild buzz effect 10 mins later.
philthegeek
Well-Known Member
Seriously. Tincture made from leaf is damn good in a recreational sense. Another half dropper in a big coffee mild happy buzz going on.
Fine use of the leaf collected (and frozen) during the odd defoliation session during the grow.
Would really like to get this analysed, but being somewhat less than legal here can send off to a lab, and while we have GS's at work asking someone to do a THC / Cannabanoid analysis may be sailing a little close to the wind.
Anyone used any of the test kits available on eBay?? Are they worth the $? would like to do something a bit more definitive than "hey, thats a noice bus"
Fine use of the leaf collected (and frozen) during the odd defoliation session during the grow.
Would really like to get this analysed, but being somewhat less than legal here can send off to a lab, and while we have GS's at work asking someone to do a THC / Cannabanoid analysis may be sailing a little close to the wind.
Anyone used any of the test kits available on eBay?? Are they worth the $? would like to do something a bit more definitive than "hey, thats a noice bus"
Bucudinkydow
Well-Known Member
Canyon has used an instrument called "T-Check" I think. A bit pricey and he experienced some problems. Not sure what his take is on it now.
alltatup
Well-Known Member
Leaf tincture has wonderful benefits, and eating the leaves gently cooked gets me high as heck!! The leaves are magical in their own right.
Does anyone else use the Ardent Lift decarboxylation machine? I love mine and it's how I prepare the bud and leaves to make tinctures.
Does anyone else use the Ardent Lift decarboxylation machine? I love mine and it's how I prepare the bud and leaves to make tinctures.
Bucudinkydow
Well-Known Member
I do have the ardent lift and have used it a couple of times. The automation is fantastic; virtually takes the thinking out of it.
I have since retired it, however,for two reasons:
First, the bad smell that eminates from the "silicon" lid has yet to be explained satisfactorily by the manufacturer..
Second, since the lid fails to give a total seal, I'm comfortable that I'm able to do a bit better job of retaining terpenes with a sealed jar decarb.
I'm of the opinion that there's a wider parameter of decarb temps/time than most realize. There's lab analyses offering great decarb results in a pretty wide ranging set of times and temps under a variety of conditions so I've retired it.
My ardent lift is now the matching bookend for my MBM2.
I have since retired it, however,for two reasons:
First, the bad smell that eminates from the "silicon" lid has yet to be explained satisfactorily by the manufacturer..
Second, since the lid fails to give a total seal, I'm comfortable that I'm able to do a bit better job of retaining terpenes with a sealed jar decarb.
I'm of the opinion that there's a wider parameter of decarb temps/time than most realize. There's lab analyses offering great decarb results in a pretty wide ranging set of times and temps under a variety of conditions so I've retired it.
My ardent lift is now the matching bookend for my MBM2.
alltatup
Well-Known Member
That's interesting; you're the second person who has had trouble getting a response from the Ardent folks. Not so good.
My lid seals and there is no odor except for the good one emanating from the buds or leaves.
Bucudinkydow
Well-Known Member
That's great. Are you a recent purchaser? When I bought mine about six months ago the ominous odor was wide spread. The fact that it was manufactured in China and customer service continued to side step the issue led me to discontinue use.
Hopefully they have improved the product. Initially, it was pretty much a one man show on a shoestring and I think they were overwhelmed. It's an excellent idea and perhaps they worked through their growing pains.
Hopefully they have improved the product. Initially, it was pretty much a one man show on a shoestring and I think they were overwhelmed. It's an excellent idea and perhaps they worked through their growing pains.
alltatup
Well-Known Member
I got mine in November. I had no idea they were made in China!!!!! Was so sure they were home-made! Shannell Lindsay is getting a significant amount of recognition, so I certainly wish her well with her business. AND I sure hope my machine lasts for a while!! So far, so good.
What I don't get is if you bought yours 6 months ago, it's still totally under warranty: have you called them? I get better results with them when I call. They owe you a new one for sure!!!
Bucudinkydow
Well-Known Member
Initially, I made several calls and always forwarded to a voice mail. Left messages and never got a response. May look up my receipt and give it a shot again.
Bucudinkydow
Well-Known Member
My lift has been out of sight and out of mind for several months now. You've spurred me into digging a little deeper on the smelly lid situation.
It appears there were some defective lids in the early production runs in regards to odor as well as fit. It seems this was corrected at some point. I see recent reports that lead me to believe there's been little improvement in customer service and some early purchasers have resorted to wrapping the lid in aluminum foil to prevent their cannabis from absorbing the fowl odor.
Still haven't located my receipt but for kicks and giggles I think I'll fire off an inquiry via email tonight and see if anything shakes loose.
It appears there were some defective lids in the early production runs in regards to odor as well as fit. It seems this was corrected at some point. I see recent reports that lead me to believe there's been little improvement in customer service and some early purchasers have resorted to wrapping the lid in aluminum foil to prevent their cannabis from absorbing the fowl odor.
Still haven't located my receipt but for kicks and giggles I think I'll fire off an inquiry via email tonight and see if anything shakes loose.
alltatup
Well-Known Member
I haven't had trouble getting through to them on the phone; you definitely deserve a new Lift.
philthegeek
Well-Known Member
So, more adventures in tincture. So far have done two extractions on each load of weed. The second often being a short one of a couple of hours. Now i have been doing that because i want to get best value for the plants grown, but, wanted to test if its actually worth it?? So.........
11/3/18
Decarbed 8g of buds in the pressure cooker for 60 mins.
JAR POPPED LID SO DIDN’T ACHIVE THE DECARB IN SEALED JAR THING. Arghhhhh!
Anyhow........
12/3/18
Did a 4 hr extraction on that 8 g of buds from 11/3/18 in 200ml ethanol. Filtered 25 micron and evaporated down to 25ml.
Put another 200ml Ethanol onto the weed extracted.
13/3/18
Left the weed from 12/3 overnight. Filtered 25 micron and evaporated down to 25ml.
Tried the 13/3/18 prep. Needed to use 3 x as much to get approx. same effect buzz wise. However, a definite if weaker effect fer sure.
My take from that is that yes, it is worth doing 2 extractions on each lot of weed,
11/3/18
Decarbed 8g of buds in the pressure cooker for 60 mins.
JAR POPPED LID SO DIDN’T ACHIVE THE DECARB IN SEALED JAR THING. Arghhhhh!
Anyhow........
12/3/18
Did a 4 hr extraction on that 8 g of buds from 11/3/18 in 200ml ethanol. Filtered 25 micron and evaporated down to 25ml.
Put another 200ml Ethanol onto the weed extracted.
13/3/18
Left the weed from 12/3 overnight. Filtered 25 micron and evaporated down to 25ml.
Tried the 13/3/18 prep. Needed to use 3 x as much to get approx. same effect buzz wise. However, a definite if weaker effect fer sure.
My take from that is that yes, it is worth doing 2 extractions on each lot of weed,
Bucudinkydow
Well-Known Member
Well looks like things HAVE changed at ardent. Sent an email last night and got this response shortly after midnight. Talk about quick response. I'm impressed!
"Hey XXXXX,
Most often, giving your silicon lid a good washing with hot soapy water will remove any odor that can come post-production. If it is particularly stubborn, include a 10 minute soak in the hot soapy water.
Please try that and let me know if it does not fix the issue, and we will happily send you a new lid to try.
Thanks!
Miriam Magid"
Found my receipt and it's actually been nearly a year. Time slips by quicker the older I get!
I tried several methods of cleaning including a cycle through the dishwasher to no avail. It's been several months since I've opened the box now and I'm willing to give her advice a try. Perhaps age has helped some also. I still have concerns about the loose fit of my lid, though. I can put my lid on and turn the cup upside down and the lid falls off. I'll bet yours fits a lot tighter?
Great to know they're willing to make it right now.
Thanx for planting the seed I had just written it off.