Haight Solid State vs. H.G.LED

[WheeloFortune]

Re: 420 Consumer Reports Competition - Haight Solid State vs. Hydro Grow LED

I had PM'd him on this topic wheel, but you seem to be quite knowledgeable as well. Why have I not seen you around other LED thread? Or Have I?

Nice input man...that's sweet...I see it as it's close...close enough for my cookies, but as you say, price is not close yet...Hope it drops fast..I bet it won't until they finally nail the technology on the head...then it is a matter of brand selection that all works, just preference. Slight here's and there's make a difference, but mostly cosmetic stuff, such as shape, style, color, etc.

Ah, sorry for the rant. haha

Thanks dudes...just had to join in on this one..

-Go

Sorry SS, last time i jack your thread i promise.

no prob greenie, I don't use LEDs (yet) and i dont generally get around the LED part of the forum. but i have friends who's journals i always like to follow, and SS is one of those green thumb, excellent stand up guys I'm glad to be able to call a friend.

So I am always watching his fine work.

keep it green bro. To each his own right???? I like the road less traveled simply because it is less traveled. LED's would be right up my alley if the ROI (return on investment for non-poker players) was right.

 

[Setting Sun]

Re: 420 Consumer Reports Competition - Haight Solid State vs. Hydro Grow LED

Another fantastic update. This is really a fascinating grow in many ways.

Thanks bro

The second half of bloom should be even more fascinating and fun .

Another quick question. Could you elaborate a little more on how you are able to keep the canopy even? TIA.

it ain't the submarine, but it gets the job done, lol

 

[420warriors]

Re: 420 Consumer Reports Competition - Haight Solid State vs. Hydro Grow LED

Hey bmarduk, maybe you should start a thread somewhere else (like in the how to grow section) I am very interested in all info I can learn but most of that is Greek to me. Either I don't really get it all or it's just a little vague. It would be interesting to see comparisons between HID, LED and CFLs.

 

[Setting Sun]

Re: 420 Consumer Reports Competition - Haight Solid State vs. Hydro Grow LED

Hey SS I have a question for you. To your trained eye, do you see a difference in the total biomass in one tent vs. the other?

Difficult thing to estimate by eyeball, even with a trained eye.

What makes it hard is the different growth patterns. The HSS plants are taller and sparser, but have larger fan leaves. The HGL plants are shorter but bushier, with somewhat smaller fans.

Looking at them and taking into account the above, I just can't get enough separation to call it.

Tell you what though, unless my logic is flawed, I think that maybe I can do better than an eyeball estimation.

How about next time I water them, I'll saturate the pots as usual, wait until they stop dripping, and weigh them? That should make it less subjective, I would think, although maybe I should wait a few hours until they drink up, but before significant evaporation occurs?

thanks for your support and comments bro

 

[Setting Sun]

Re: 420 Consumer Reports Competition - Haight Solid State vs. Hydro Grow LED

a ton of pics bro, oh yeah, lovin it.

they all look very healthy, and your doing a great job keeping the canopy even.

it looks like the HGL has got a step on the HSS, but only you can really tell. looking forward to the finish bro. 1/2 way there.

This strain should be flowered 7-8 weeks, so indeed, we're halfway there

here's to dreaming about high output low input!!!!!!! and to any new technology that achieves this end at a low cost to me!

Makes me wonder what we'll be discussing and debating in 5-10 years, and I hope we grow old doing it. Well, you anyway, I'm already old .

sorry for the slight rant SS, you are definitely showcasing the possibilities. Hopefully, g/w, you will prove me wrong in the end.

How was that a rant?

LED's are the topic, and I always value your contributions and viewpoints.

In any case, you can't bite your tongue all the time, it's painful, lol.

thanks bro

 

[1234a5678b]

Re: 420 Consumer Reports Competition - Haight Solid State vs. Hydro Grow LED

They look beautiful, man.

 

[Setting Sun]

Re: 420 Consumer Reports Competition - Haight Solid State vs. Hydro Grow LED

HGL = 126w = 116.25 μmole/sec = 116.25/126 = .922 PAR photon flux density/watt
GE HPS = 600w = 1080 μmole/sec = 1080/600 = 1.8 PAR/watt

So does this suggest that the HGL 126w should perform about the same as 300w of HID?

 

[WheeloFortune]

Re: 420 Consumer Reports Competition - Haight Solid State vs. Hydro Grow LED

So does this suggest that the HGL 126w should perform about the same as 300w of HID?

well, no unfortunately not.
both of those are photon flux densities (how many individual packets of light per unit area) per watt.
so that's saying that for every watt of electricity you use you get twice the amount of photosynthetically usable light from a 600w HPS when compared to the 126w HGL light.

the total amount of PAR light that the HGL puts out is 116.25 μmole/sec, and a 600w HPS is putting out 1080 μmole/sec.

1080/116.25 = 9.29 times as much PAR light with 600 HPS.
600/126 = 4.76 times as much electricity with 600 HPS.

of course you have to take into account that led gets to focus the wavelength bands much more accurately, but is that necessarily a good thing? i'm not convinced. unless i have a severe heat issue or something i'm not using one.

i guess for me i'm just glad to have you run this test so we can get a nice reliable g/w at the end, because that's really all that matters in the end. (well, $$ too) I want it to work as much as anyone else bro. but the more I look at them, the less I think they're ready for the big show.

WF

 

[Setting Sun]

Re: 420 Consumer Reports Competition - Haight Solid State vs. Hydro Grow LED

Sorry SS, last time i jack your thread i promise.

Discussing the science of LED's and lighting doesn't jack this thread one bit.

no prob greenie, I don't use LEDs (yet) and i dont generally get around the LED part of the forum. but i have friends who's journals i always like to follow, and SS is one of those green thumb, excellent stand up guys I'm glad to be able to call a friend.

So I am always watching his fine work.

Thank you, my friend .

and ditto

well, no unfortunately not.
both of those are photon flux densities (how many individual packets of light per unit area) per watt.
so that's saying that for every watt of electricity you use you get twice the amount of photosynthetically usable light from a 600w HPS when compared to the 126w HGL light.

the total amount of PAR light that the HGL puts out is 116.25 μmole/sec, and a 600w HPS is putting out 1080 μmole/sec.

1080/116.25 = 9.29 times as much PAR light with 600 HPS.
600/126 = 4.76 times as much electricity with 600 HPS.

of course you have to take into account that led gets to focus the wavelength bands much more accurately, but is that necessarily a good thing? i'm not convinced. unless i have a severe heat issue or something i'm not using one.

i guess for me i'm just glad to have you run this test so we can get a nice reliable g/w at the end, because that's really all that matters in the end. (well, $$ too) I want it to work as much as anyone else bro. but the more I look at them, the less I think they're ready for the big show.

WF

Thanks for explaining, I get it now.

There is also the issue of growers beginning to learn how to optimize things for LED grows.

Lighter soil mixes, light positioning at different growth stages, finding the best grow styles, i.e. SCROG, SOG, LST, 12/12 from seed, etc., will also help to maximize LED performance.

As far as larger grows with LED's, I can see using several of these if ambient temps would not allow the use of hotter lights.

It would be an expensive proposition compared to an HID setup, but at least it provides the option if a grower wants to pay the piper before prices start coming down.

For smaller personal grows, I'm hoping this thread helps add to the knowledge pool as we watch these technologies evolve.

All kinds of good stuff coming down the pike.

It's a good time to be a grower/technophile .


"I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion.
I've watched c-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhäuser Gate.
All those ... moments will be lost in time, like tears...in rain. Time to die."

 

[WheeloFortune]

Re: 420 Consumer Reports Competition - Haight Solid State vs. Hydro Grow LED

I just bought a 1kw quantum digital dimmable ballast, grolux bulb, fresca sol, pump, tubing and 55 gal drum for 700 bucks. if you add in a small chiller, i already have one, thats $1000.

this will probably run cooler than a large bank of LED's, give off more light than 10 of the HGL lights and cost less than 3. put the 1000w on a light rail and you got a 4x8 tent covered. you'd need 20 HGL's for that. who's got that kind of dough? even with the rail its less than 3 126 watt lights.

if you are getting 1.5 g/w though, i will take it all back in the end. . . and probably buy some the next time I have 8 grand to blow on lights.

 

[Propa Gator]

Re: 420 Consumer Reports Competition - Haight Solid State vs. Hydro Grow LED

These PAR values are intriguing at least; I'm fascinated. This is the heart of LEDs, no? Just the most useful colors and none of the rest. And high lumen/watt!
HPS has a strong but narrow spectrum, but HPS is not the only useful HID. I've become entranced by Phillips' retro-fit CMH.
I believe the even spectrum white light is used and appreciated by my late flower stage cannabis.

Hello Wheelo. Do your charts rate my bulbs? Can you slay me with science?
I'd be flattered if you used the calculus to do so.

Mr Sun. Someone warned me months ago, about blue plastic under strong light.
Emits something I can't spell. Mine smelled, and hit the dumpster.
I now copy your (and others') fan at the bottom blowing up.
I'm less worried about transpiration moisture build-up within a massive indica cola.
Nice problem to have

 

[Setting Sun]

Re: 420 Consumer Reports Competition - Haight Solid State vs. Hydro Grow LED

Well, hopefully someone will market LED movers, which would minimize the cost to some degree, but I definitely think you got the most bang for your buck by far with today's available technology.

congrats on the new gear!


I really have no idea what the yield on this grow is going to be at this point. I haven't done anything heroic to push the envelope. Still a lot of empty space between the nodes, but there's a few weeks left.

They vegged well enough to carry that much bud, but I don't think I'm going to be breaking records.

 

[WheeloFortune]

Re: 420 Consumer Reports Competition - Haight Solid State vs. Hydro Grow LED

These PAR values are intriguing at least; I'm fascinated. This is the heart of LEDs, no? Just the most useful colors and none of the rest. And high lumen/watt!
HPS has a strong but narrow spectrum, but HPS is not the only useful HID. I've become entranced by Phillips' retro-fit CMH.
I believe the even spectrum white light is used and appreciated by my late flower stage cannabis.

Hello Wheelo. Do your charts rate my bulbs? Can you slay me with science?
I'd be flattered if you used the calculus to do so.

Hello Gator. if you take a look at that lucalox bulb tech sheet i posted in the earlier post, on pg. 9 of the pdf, you'll see that cmh bulbs are the second most ppf/watt after HPS.

anyway you slice it the LED's lack lumens/W, PPF/W Par/W. . . the only advantage is you can balance the spectrum any which way you please, but I'm not sure it's worth the loss of overall performance of light output/Watt.

I went to the philips website and looked up your bulb, and the spectrum looks kick ass at first, but when I looked closer, the y axis scale is "relative energy" what ever the hell that means, instead of a real measurement like [W/nm]. so I can't really make sense of what the graph is telling me. If the CMH scale and HPS scale of the comparison graphs are the same scale, then this bulb should put out a way broader spectrum of light than an HPS. . . However, considering the GE pdf, and the CMH stats, your bulb puts out about 34,800 lumens for a 400W bulb, thats about 87 lumens/watt. The GE lucalux bulb puts out about 56,500 lumens, which is 141.25 lumens/watt. I don't think it's probable that the CMH is putting out more usable light than the HPS.

that would agree with the GE ppf/W chart.

 

[WheeloFortune]

Re: 420 Consumer Reports Competition - Haight Solid State vs. Hydro Grow LED

Well, hopefully someone will market LED movers, which would minimize the cost to some degree, but I definitely think you got the most bang for your buck by far with today's available technology.

congrats on the new gear!

thanks bro. i can't wait to put it to good use.

light movers for a few LED's ok, but how can you put 10 units on movers? lol. thats what you need to get a similar coverage area and light intensity to a 1k.

 

[Setting Sun]

Re: 420 Consumer Reports Competition - Haight Solid State vs. Hydro Grow LED

Mr Sun. Someone warned me months ago, about blue plastic under strong light.
Emits something I can't spell. Mine smelled, and hit the dumpster.

Thanks for the heads-up PG. They don't smell cause I bought them a couple years ago, but I don't want to even take a remote chance of any off-gassing, so I'll use something else.

I now copy your (and others') fan at the bottom blowing up.
I'm less worried about transpiration moisture build-up within a massive indica cola.
Nice problem to have

I've experimented with different fans and fan positions, and once the pots are spread out far enough, I like to have it in the center blowing up for the rest of the grow. As you mention, it really helps keep the humidity down.

Plants seem to like it, and if you run an open hood or bare bulb, it helps keep canopy temps down and lets you drop your lights down closer without burn.

thanks again PG

 

[MountainHigh]

Re: 420 Consumer Reports Competition - Haight Solid State vs. Hydro Grow LED

thanks bro. i can't wait to put it to good use.

light movers for a few LED's ok, but how can you put 10 units on movers? lol. thats what you need to get a similar coverage area and light intensity to a 1k.

Hey Wheel, I posted a static mover for LED's somewhere, you could use a camera mover design. Just move the angle of the light so it sweeps both the X direction and Y direction (two simple stepper motors...interested? basic mover.)

This is what I envision for the future of LED's. A 4' long panel with 3 large circular platters. Have like 6 additional bright but diffuse smaller circles of LED's distributed evenly around the edge of the light to provide constant fill light. The platters will have high intensity low diffusion LED's to provide 3 "spotlight's" of light that move over the canopy in regular patterns. Might even shim the platter to make the LED's have a slightly inward pattern to make that hotspot more intense.

Ok take it next gen and add a feedback sensor set to judge canopy height and have it on its own motorized lift and put one on each platter so the light can sense canopy that isn't even and direct more spotlight time on that area. The 3 platters will give you penetration into the canopy with stronger more focused light. We know mover technology works, the plant doesn't need bright light all the time and does well at certain percentage.

Anyway, rambled enough.

brothers.

 

[Keith Lake]

Re: 420 Consumer Reports Competition - Haight Solid State vs. Hydro Grow LED

HGL = 126w = 116.25 μmole/sec = 116.25/126 = .922 PAR photon flux density/watt
GE HPS = 600w = 1080 μmole/sec = 1080/600 = 1.8 PAR/watt

So does this suggest that the HGL 126w should perform about the same as 300w of HID?

I'm not WheeloScience but I'd say no because it's a rate or ratio rather than a value

 

[Keith Lake]

Re: 420 Consumer Reports Competition - Haight Solid State vs. Hydro Grow LED

Do you communicate with the sponsors during this grow? I mean, if it were me,

I've had contact with both sponsors intermittently throughout this grow and do pass the messages along. We're following the pre-agreed rules as detailed in post #1, but on occasion, things have come up that we didn't anticipate. In these cases setting sun has brought up the issue for discussion and asked the community for input.

For example; whether we should have raised the HGL light to 9" when the canopy broadened beyond the ability to maintain full coverage at 6". Given both of these set points were within the pre-agreed guidelines; all input received was considered.

At the end of the day, setting sun always has the final say; but a wise man (i.e. setting sun) gets as many views as he reasonably can before he makes his decision.

I'd be tempted to lower the HSS light because it seems those plants are reaching for light hence the stretch appearance. All in all, you're doing a great job for this forum community and many thanks for your hard work and due diligence.

The instructions from Haight (as seen is post 1), allow for lowering the lights as close as possible during the second half of flowering.

setting sun just mentioned that his tallest plant is still stretching. If you subscribe to the 40/60 theory or stretch/swell, this means we're not quite to the "second half of flowering"

Still time to smoke on it for spell

I'm not weighing in on what I think should be done; I really love the first rate input coming from the community

This is a true collective grow

 

[hydronewbie]

Setting Sun for Governor of California in 2010

I just wish they offered Stoner Science classes in High School. I appreciate the eloquent PAR/LUX equations, but it's way over my head. Very cool though and the technical parlance reinforces the intellectual strength of this community; i.e. it's okay to market your product with hype but you better be able to back it up with scientific accuracy and measurable results. As a newbie, I don't want to spend money on a product or technology that won't deliver results. And this is the perfect forum for the community to weigh in on the pros and cons of the nascent LED technology on cannabis cultivation. I personally can't wait for future comparison grows of a similar nature that will include soil vs. hydro, LED vs. HID vs. CFL, etc. I know you guys are working on that and as I've expressed in the past there ought to be a way forum participants can financially contribute to or support these type of comparison grow events. How about this...we nominate Setting Sun for governor of California for the Green Party on a legalize cannabis platform with all campaign contributions going to Weed R&D? I'm sure Snoop Dog would volunteer as campaing manager. If nothing else, Setting Sun could burn a fat one with Jerry Brown.

 

[Retired One]

Re: 420 Consumer Reports Competition - Haight Solid State vs. Hydro Grow LED

I haven't done anything heroic to push the envelope.

Brother, this grow was never about that. Cutting edge nutrient brews and advanced growing techniques are out of reach of many small growers. Growers interested solely in providing for themselves, you're doing them a service by showing what they can expect to achieve.

What you have also done is put down a blueprint on how to conduct a dispassionate, professional, comparitive grow. I can't express strongly enough, how much I'm impressed.

This will be very interesting as we run through the "fattening up" stage to see where you end up.