Haight Solid State vs. H.G.LED

[Setting Sun]

Re: 420 Consumer Reports Competition - Haight Solid State vs. Hydro Grow LED

I really was not decided when I woke up this morning as to what direction to go in with the re-potting, and there have been a *lot* of well-reasoned arguments on both sides of the fence.

As the day progressed, I checked in several times to read the comments and to include them in everything I considered before deciding what to do.

I appreciate all the thoughts posted from everyone and to save bandwidth, I'm going to answer a sampling of posts that I think should cover most of the issues and what I considered.

It wasn't an easy day for me because I really don't want to screw this up.

I really appreciate that even though this was a somewhat impassioned discussion, it stayed polite and informative. You guys/gals rock .

 

[Setting Sun]

Re: 420 Consumer Reports Competition - Haight Solid State vs. Hydro Grow LED

Damn good question Sun

Would it extend the over all grow time?
imho yes. How long do you the grower want it to go?

thanks OMM .

Yes, I agree, it would extend the overall time of the grow.

I would like it to go as fast as the plants will allow .

and maybe the KISS solution is the answer.

It often can be.

I bet that 90% of the viewing audience will say re pot.

It seemed fairly split.

When that happens with an experienced and knowledgeable group, it's been my experience that it can mean that both choices are viable.

I think both choices are viable and that neither one is *clearly* better than the other.

My approach to this grow has been to try to maximize these light's performance by exploiting their strengths and trying to minimize their weaknesses, because isn't that how other growers would use them?

Growing plants beyond the lights ability to penetrate will definitely demonstrate that weakness, but that's not my goal here. My goal is to see how these lights perform, and I'm doing my best to provide them with favorable conditions. I would do the same thing for *any* technology.

I'm doing my best to show what they *can* do, not what they *can't* do.

I don't think it's a secret that penetration has historically not been a strength.

thanks brother OMM!

 

[Setting Sun]

Re: 420 Consumer Reports Competition - Haight Solid State vs. Hydro Grow LED

I am not so sure repotting is the way to go.

The only issue with the pots being too small would be having to water too often as the plants get bigger. But since the current pots are already draining very slowly, I really don't think it is necessary.

These are the exact same pots I used in my last grow and they are more than adequate for growing plants to 3 feet tall. Any taller than that and the LEDs simply wont reach the lower buds anyway.

I think the current setup is good and I honestly wouldn't change anything.

The issue of watering frequency will only become an issue if I have to leave town for some reason.

When I agreed to be the grower for this comparison, I committed myself to not traveling during this period of time unless it can't possibly be helped.

I knew full well when I chose to use the 2-gallon pots that I might have to water them daily, or maybe even more often if these ladies get that thirsty, which I'm sort of hoping they do .

I don't mind watering twice a day at all if it comes to that. I knew it might come to that with 2-gallons and 33% Perlite, but I'm OK with it. Realistically, I think once-a-day is probably going to be the most often I have to water them, and I'm down with that.

I've seen quite a few nice 3-4' plants grown in these pots also, so I appreciate you sharing your experience.

thanks sweetherb!

 

[Setting Sun]

Re: 420 Consumer Reports Competition - Haight Solid State vs. Hydro Grow LED

I would not re-pot them unless they are obviously root bound, but only because this is an experiment, and at least for me, it would be difficult to ensure that each of them transplants with the same amount of disturbance to the root ball.

It's just a variable I'd try not to add, even if there's a decent chance you could minimize it, it's still going to factor in the results, where as now it's not.

I agree. No matter how carefully I transplant them, it introduces a variable and risk which are not present now.

What do you think about this supposition: since LED plants seem to have less transpiration than under HPS, they might have a smaller root ball too?

It makes sense to me that if demand was lower above ground due to decreased transpiration, the root system might not need to be as large.

Growers using hydro with familiar strains and switching to LED might have some valuable input on root growth under LED's.

thanks OBX!

 

[Setting Sun]

Re: 420 Consumer Reports Competition - Haight Solid State vs. Hydro Grow LED

Just to complicate things....

The choice doesn't have to be repot or not. You could repot half of each (offcenter of course). In the end we'd learn which tactic was better and we'd still have equivalent comparison.

Only issue here is if repotted plants get taller and causes us to not be able to optimize the light gap, so maybe this wasn't a good thought after all.

I think it's a much worse risk to have to cut down to fewer plants than it is to risk running out of root space, even if you become a little root bound.

One of the most important things I'd personally like to see out of this is the performance under total available light foot print.

If we end up with less plants than the light footprint could handle we'll have an under optimized gram/watt ratio result.

I agree with everyone else, this is setting sun's call.

If there's anything better than one experiment, it's two experiments!

I would LOVE to transplant two in each tent and see the effects of the bigger pots in addition to how well these lights work.

This would be my choice if there weren't some other considerations, because killing two birds with one stone is really attractive when each run takes months to complete.

I also agree that having to remove plants would be a good thing to avoid if possible.

Great suggestion bro!

Thanks for giving me more to chew on today .

 

[Setting Sun]

Re: 420 Consumer Reports Competition - Haight Solid State vs. Hydro Grow LED

You should definitely transplant them SS.

While it's true you're introducing more variables as hydronewbie said, the increase of variables is the same for all the plants since they're all getting transplanted, so it's a wash there. But during the stretch those girls might drink more water than your current pots can contain in a 36 hour period, not to mention the possibility of them being root-bound. Besides, although this is explicitly a comparison between the two respective lights, it is implicitly a comparison against other lights as well (whether we want it to be or not) don't you think? Almost everyone has made a comment along the lines of "let's see if the lights can match the hype" - well, we know they can't if we're constraining their ability to grow, no?

My vote: transplant. Let's see what these babies can do.

Yes, I think that naturally people are comparing not just one light's versus the other, but also against other technologies.

That's why I'm striving to do both things.

If I felt in my gut that this grow was doomed or even seriously compromised because the pots are too small, I would make a very impassioned plea and see if we could correct/change things and still keep everybody happy.

I could be wrong, it's happened before , but with all my spidey senses on high-alert, I don't believe the 2-gallon pots will be a limitation in demonstrating to us how these lights perform.

thank you Sonora!

 

[Setting Sun]

Re: 420 Consumer Reports Competition - Haight Solid State vs. Hydro Grow LED

What size pots would you normally use for plants of the size that you want to flower at? and remember, as im sure you do, youre using LEDs here. As The Weed said, youre going for bud size and quality not plant size. Although a healthy plant produces healthy buds. I say we go for a small plant with some potent buds! I also feel we should add your results from the culled plants under HIDs to compare potency to LED grown at least, size or yield not being a factor. I want to at least compare potency and flavor from HID grown to LED grown plants that came from the same seed packs and genetics. Or maybe that should be another grow? Being the plants were culled from the LED tents because they were different in one way or another which may give different results?

Normally I would use 3-5 gallon pots and LST them. I'm still experimenting, but that's a very efficient way to grow in my tents.

If I could have topped or LST'ed them, I would have started them in bigger pots, but not having that option, I opted for the 2-gallon to help keep their size manageable and maximize the strengths of the lights.

The culled plants are under 110w of T5 because my garage is too hot now with the space heater to use the 150 HID.

The culled plants probably think they've checked into The Hostel, lol. They aren't in any shape to be compared to anything that has been left alone .

thank you brother!

 

[Setting Sun]

Re: 420 Consumer Reports Competition - Haight Solid State vs. Hydro Grow LED

poor SS is going to have alot of replying to do lol this can get to be hard work some times. major props to SS and much respect! he really is doing a wonderful job and keeping everyone happy!

I'm glad that there have been so many insightful comments and good discussion. Thank you for the encouragement brother, my reward is knowing that people may benefit from my efforts.

wow SS, just read about your learning of the camera settings and i must say the results ARE very impressive! and gotta say im liking the HGL better at this point and i think you could fill the tent wall to wall with plants of that height with either of those lights! with veg growth like that i really cant wait to see them flower! both lights have blown my expections out of the water performance and growth wise for that amount of wattage and cost so far! very impressed. at this point im sold on either one for veg growth alone!

Based on this grow, I'd have to agree with you on their veg performance!

Either of these lights will veg well, but I don't think both of them will fill my tents wall-to-wall equally well.

They have very different designs and because of their very different viewing angles, one may be *much* more suitable than the other depending on what a grower needs from a veg light.

The HSS light fills my tent wall-to-wall with light, and I could use the entire 7.8 sq.ft. area to veg. If you need a light to veg a larger number of plants, the HSS will perform better in that capacity, and although this is conjecture, from observing how the HSS light illuminates and reflects in my tent, I don't think the plants on the perimeter would be too deprived.

The HGL, on the other hand, has a more intense and focused beam. I think that may be one reason why the HGL plants have thicker stems and dry out their pots faster, but.......................you're not going to be able to veg as many plants under it.

The above said, if one chooses the right light for the job, I think they would not be disappointed with how they perform for veg duty.

The plants are looking great!

thanks RC!

 

[Setting Sun]

Re: 420 Consumer Reports Competition - Haight Solid State vs. Hydro Grow LED

I think it's a damm good idea to transplant, and while you're at it, add some more perlite . Then you can fertilize twice per week. I know you don't need to be told how to transplant, but Irish has the right method. The only thing i would add is more perlite and i'd use a box cutter on the side roots on the way to their new pots. Like 5 one inch deep slashes around the edges, just before you put them in the new pots. Personnaly, i don't know how the plant will even know it's being moved, if done right !!
I have vegged my last two grows with two 90 watt ufos, then flower with 600 watt hid and it seems to me that the root systems are more root bound at harvest, compared to being under cfls and hids, their whole life. I'm using 4 gal pots. And i veg for 6 to 8 weeks.
Plants are looking so fine SS !! I do believe that before this is over, you'll cull down two two plants on each side. Just can't see lights covering 4 plants !! You gonna make moms out of the culled plants ?? Good luck bro !!

I've done the vertical scoring with a box knife when I transplant and I think it helps the root ball get started faster in it's new home.

The key thing to not harming the root ball, as Irish mentioned, is to wait until the soil is nice and dry. I've never had a problem as long as the soil is dry.


I'm hoping to not have to cull any plants, but we're not there yet. It would be a good problem .

The culled plants would make great moms, but I'm not sure yet what's gonna happen with them.

thanks Slowpuffer!

 

[Setting Sun]

Re: 420 Consumer Reports Competition - Haight Solid State vs. Hydro Grow LED

Just my 2 cents...

It seems to me that while both plants are about the same hight, the HGL plants are all around more stout, bushier, and denser. While initially this makes me favor the Hydro Grow lights, I wonder if this could end up being a negative. My logic is that while they might be stronger, that by being bushier, it will ultimately block more light to parts that need it.

Also, I am extremely grateful for you doing this test. I have been following it since day 1. Not only does it compare two different lights, but it also gives us a good impression of what LEDs can actually do in real world tests.

Keep up the good work. And keep those pics coming.

Princess Mattaki

Hi Mattakistar! Nice to meet you and thanks for following this grow .

I've been looking at other Violator Kush grows online and reading grow reports on this strain.

It branches very heavily and the upper fan leaves block a lot of light. One grower recommended snipping some of the upper fan leaves to allow light to penetrate better.

The HGL plants have branched more and it's pretty dark down below. It could be a negative, but I've never grown this strain before.

thank you for your comments!

 

[Setting Sun]

Re: 420 Consumer Reports Competition - Haight Solid State vs. Hydro Grow LED

Do the ladies tell you they want more room? Hang out with them for a while....see what they say. We all like to be comfortable, and more room can make comfort much easier!

See what they say...go with your gut...

I personally like using larger pots. I have noticed with my LR variety, larger pots make for bigger plants. Obviously there is a point of diminished returns, but a step up usually is a good thing.

I am scribed! I just stumbled upon this grow. Looks like they are doing well! Keep up the great work, and thanks for sharing with us all!

-Go Green-

I'm more of a reactive touchy-feely kind of grower than one that rigidly follows schedules without developing a relationship with their plants, so I know exactly what you're talking about.

They are doing good, thanks!

I appreciate your positive energy and support .

 

[Setting Sun]

Re: 420 Consumer Reports Competition - Haight Solid State vs. Hydro Grow LED

3) All else equal

• Tents are Secret Jardin DR80's; qty 2, 32" X 32" X 64".
• The strain is Barney's Farm Violator Kush, feminized X10Genetics: Barney's Farm Seeds - Violator Kush is an Indica strain with genetics sourced from Malana and Hindu Kush, (clones were not possible so we decided upon a stabilized feminized strain to minimize risk of phenotype). variation).
• 5 plants per light. One tent per light.
• The weakest plant eliminated after the third week of veg
• The final grow will be the four strongest plants in each tent
• This is a soil grow using Fox Farm's Ocean Forest soil mixed with 25% Perlite.
• Nutes will be Fox Farm's Grow Big/Big Bloom/Tiger Bloom, Botanicare Cal-Mag Plus, Maxicrop liquid seaweed.
• The containers are 2-gallon square pots.
• Seeds will be planted and germinated directly in soil.
• Each tents is independently ventilated by a Soler & Palau TD100 (100cfm) 4" exhaust fan mounted outside the tent, pulling air through a 4" HTG Supply Pure Flow 4 carbon filter mounted horizontally at the top of each tent for odor control. Intake is passive and through vents at the bottom of each tent.
  Sorry Folks,
  I just can't see the option of transplanting based on the rules and details of the first thread. Please stay the course. There should be opportunities to include transplantation on future grows. I think all data should be extracted after the grow is complete; yield, root structures, temps, pH values. etc. But it just doesn't seem scientific to deviate from the original hypothetical...though I'm certainly no scientist. I'd also like to hear what the manufacturers say about the proposal to transplant presuming they are sponsors of this grow. I can imagine the runner-up to the competition taking the position that the experiment went awry when the grower decided to take a vote on whether to transplant and did so against the rules and details of the first thread (sorry to play the Anslinger's Advocate). Respectfully,
  hydrownewbie

• 
  
  
  This is one of the things I considered today.
  
  I re-read the guidelines carefully and came to the conclusion that most people reading "the containers are two-gallon square pots" would interpret that as meaning that the plants would stay in those pots through harvest.
  
  The guidelines do not address the issue of re-potting, and as such, I thought I might be able to make an argument from silence, but I've found that when I find myself looking for loopholes like that in order to justify something, I'm not being honest with myself, much less with any of you.
  
  By now you've probably gathered that I've decided to keep things as they are and let them finish in their original pots.
  
  It hasn't been an easy decision by any means, but I feel I need to honor the guidelines as they are, without trying to squirrel around them.
  
  thanks hydronewbie, I appreciate your input!

 

[Setting Sun]

Re: 420 Consumer Reports Competition - Haight Solid State vs. Hydro Grow LED

While all opinions and insights are interesting,lets not lose sight of the purpose of this grow. whether you transplant or not, all plants are to receive the same treatment and conditions to compare the lights. While the pots they are in are likely large enough, you spoke of maximizing yield. I doubt a transplant will shock them enough to harm yield but you may take sum time getting the watering and nutes dialed in. I guess it is really a personal decision, taking into consideration how comfortable you are with transplanting.

I'm pretty comfortable with it, so that's not an issue, but not matter how carefully I do it, it does introduce a variable that could affect the results.

Reducing and minimizing variables is what makes a test like this valid. Again, if my gut told me that the 2-gallon pots threatened the outcome of the comparison, I would make a plea to take another look at the guidelines and see if things could be amended, but my gut's not telling me that.

Doesn't mean that I'm sure I'm right, just means that I'm willing to assume the risk and consequences if I'm wrong.

thanks 420warrior!

 

[IrishBoy]

Re: 420 Consumer Reports Competition - Haight Solid State vs. Hydro Grow LED

dude + rep for taking the time to answer/comment on every ones post. lots of respect for that one bro. keep up the good work, this is the cleanest side x side i have yet to see. kinda making my side x side look bad..lol.

 

[Setting Sun]

Re: 420 Consumer Reports Competition - Haight Solid State vs. Hydro Grow LED

I vote "No transplant"

1.)It introduces another variable which could influence the outcome of the grow. Notice I didn't say "will" influence....just that it could. If the plants died or got sick for some reason, the whole project would be a waste of time. They are growing well now....stay the course.
2.)Assuming SS's considerable skill results in a flawless transplant, the larger containers will result in bigger plants. This will mean the LED's may not be able to cover the area, let alone penetrate the canopy. LST is out of the question if we want any sort of scientific comparison.....it's another huge variable.

I say throw them into flower ASAP, and get the grow over with. You'll get your data, get some meds, and then you can tabulate everything and move on to the next thing.

I agree with Doc. Don't transplant, take the simpler path and get to the end quicker.

I agree.
As it looks now those 4 should fill the tent easily.
If they're at 12", flip them.

I can certainly appreciate the above sentiments. This grow has excellent momentum and I want to keep that going, so that's another good reason to keep on truckin'.

thanks brothers!

 

[Setting Sun]

Re: 420 Consumer Reports Competition - Haight Solid State vs. Hydro Grow LED

Do you use a point and shoot type camera or is it one of those DSLR digital cameras? I really like the way it looks after you modified the pics some.

Very nice job on the pics. I'm going to mess with my WB settings now to see what I can come up with for HPS lighting.

I'm using a Canon S3 IS with 12X optical zoom. It's in the "super-zoom" class of digital cameras. High-end point and shoot that also provides full manual control.

The reason I use it is because it's good for both regular pics, and with an inexpensive adapter and 10X macro extender lens, I can also use it for macro pics of trichs. To do the same with an SLR costs a lot more than I want to spend.

I'm satisfied with the pic quality, and the ability to take up to 120X pics of trichs is why I like super-zooms. Not all of them will take additional lenses and filters, however.

I'm embarrassed about the white-balance thing. It literally took me less than 10 minutes to set a custom level. I put a sheet of printer paper in the tent, let the camera adjust to it, and presto, done.

It has to be done separately for each light because they have different spectrums. When I take pics of both tents in the same frame, I can only optimize the camera for one of them.

I think I'm going to improve my HPS pics a lot by doing the same thing.


I apologize to readers who could care less about photography for the off-topic discussion, but pics are so important when we're sharing information, and I think sharing tips on how to improve pic quality isn't completely off-topic.

thanks bros!

 

[Setting Sun]

Re: 420 Consumer Reports Competition - Haight Solid State vs. Hydro Grow LED

dude + rep for taking the time to answer/comment on every ones post. lots of respect for that one bro. keep up the good work, this is the cleanest side x side i have yet to see. kinda making my side x side look bad..lol.

It's been a day, but I'm glad I asked for feedback .

thank you bro!

 

[OldMedMan]

Re: 420 Consumer Reports Competition - Haight Solid State vs. Hydro Grow LED

Well done Sun
You are always a good listener and a very clear thinker. That's why you got the job in the first place. +reps.
The camera tips were great too and very important in every grow and journal.
Thanks.

 

[hydronewbie]

Re: 420 Consumer Reports Competition - Haight Solid State vs. Hydro Grow LED

Thanks, man. Apologies if I was over the top on my position. Looking forward to the end game. Later.

 

[PotPie]

Re: 420 Consumer Reports Competition - Haight Solid State vs. Hydro Grow LED

SS, Thanks for posting this terrific journal. You have put an enormous amount of time and energy into this and I appreciate it.

You had a tough decision and I'm glad you decided to limit the variables. I think by doing so you have ensured the integrity of the side by side comparison. On a personal note the ADD in me kinda wanted you to re-pot. I have transplanted hundreds and hundreds of plants and I don't ever recall having a major problem. Maybe a little droopy for day but that's it. But there's that variable, "Did that day of stress alter the results?" Good call and well done. +reps