illizm775
Well-Known Member
Point it down and it will rise, plant it round and it will frown.
Growing A Legend: An Auto Tribute To Jack Herer
- Thread starter Guy Cavallero
- Start date
flytier
Well-Known Member
Nope, little bastard's still a no-show.
I do believe the genetics in the Greenhouse are similar and I believe that the CKS genetics are probably similar as well. So if one germinates and the others don't....I can't see the genetics being the issue. And please don't think I am saying that any of you other growers are doing anything wrong. I am simply saying there has got to be another variable other than sketchy genetics as to why the variations in the germination rate of a breeders strain. All the Yanks are growing Greenhouse JH autos....assuming they are from the same mom and dad which I would assume for a renowned seed breeder like Greenhouse....but we are having a lot of variation in our results.
I can tell you from past experiences growing all sorts of different plants is that when you a great variation like that in growing results, the genetics aren't usually the issue. Its a temp or weather issue. I have never had any seeds of the same strains take more than 12 hours more than any of the other same strain seeds.....meaning like for my Stankberry, the Harlequins, the Nukes, or ATFs.......the seeds all germinate within 12 hours of their brother or sister seeds when starting them the same way. That tells me that if you keep them in the same environment (i.e. all the same variables) that there isn't much variation in results.
I could be way off base on my hypothesis.....but its the best one I have at this point.
Amen.
That's possible but I'm not sure that one seed is that much like the next even from the best breeders. These are feminized autoflowers, so there's intervention involved in making those seeds. I got five AK-47 autos from 420 on my first order. That should be a pretty stable strain at this point but 3 of 5 didn't sprout. 420 replaced those for free and 1 of those 3 didn't sprout either. Same environment for all of them (warm distilled water in a bowl in the dark). I just consider it the luck of the draw, like 9/10 of the seeds will germinate and someone has to be the unlucky one!
Well I fully admit that I don't have much experience at all with Autos. And yes I do agree.....you would think that those AK-47 should be fairly stable....certainly stable enough that you should not have had a 50% success ratio with germination. That alone is enough to give me pause that a 50% germination success ratio isn't natural with anything but the shadiest of home pollen chuckers, definitely not a long established breeder like Greenhouse, or Humboldt. Otherwise I can't see seed banks stocking and supporting a breeder that is commonly giving that sort of success rate. So, if I am right about the start of this paragraph........then that means its got to be something else that is impacting that success rate.
When I germinate veggie seeds outside in the garden naturally, I have a much lower success rate than when I start them indoors. Same seeds.....different environment....drastically different success rate. Indoors I am close to 100% with almost any variety of seeds. Hell I am 100% with cucumbers inside....but I am only about 20% outdoors starting them. So whats different? Temps and soil and moisture levels. Soil I can control in the future......and I will try using my indoor soil to start outdoor seeds and see if that improves the success rate. If it doesn't.....that leaves temps and moisture as the only different factors.
And sorry if this is a bit deeper than some of you are wanting this thread to go....but the research side of my brain just gets wrapped around the axle on scenarios like this.
TheFertilizer
Well-Known Member
So my plant science teacher insisted that most seeds you buy in packages for various vegetables and what not are almost harder to get NOT to germinate because of the work that's been done on those varieties to insure that they're going to germinate. They treat them with some chemicals, even seeds labeled non-GMO ( since these chemicals aren't genetically modified chemicals after all ) and there's also genetics that have been created with the help of radiation in the non non-GMO varieties. So I think comparing these types of seeds to cannabis seeds is like comparing apples to oranges, unless you're dealing with some really old-world heirloom varieties that have been past on through just traditional selective breeding.
The problem with cannabis genetics is that there is so much variation that it really doesn't have much to do with a breeder's quality or reputation, but basically just the nature of the cannabis plant itself. GHS apparently crossed a Jack Herer ( no saying whose, was it Sensi's? Some random guy's cut? An S1 bagseed? ) with a Ruderalis ( pretty vague... Just Ruderalis?) and so that right there is introducing a lot of genetic variability into a strain that was already not necessarily "stable" to begin with. Unless a strain is "true breeding" it will have loads of variation, and I do not believe Jack Herer was every close to being true breeding even before adding in the variability of ruderalis.
Anyway long story short, I don't have any experience growing other plants from seed, but from what I've heard there's a lot of work that goes into making true breeding varieties of these types of food crop seeds. You can plant a field of them, and most of them will come up looking the same, be the same size, and outside of environmental factors, they will grow the same. However, with 90%--honestly probably more like 95% of cannabis varieties--they are not true breeding and so we see that expressed when plants grown in exactly the same conditions end up out performing others or having drastically different characteristics. Of course you know this, but if there is enough variation in the genetics to allow for phenotypal expression, then it would stand to reason it would also vary how successfully one seed germinated from the next. Your common vegetable garden seeds are all going to germinate the same because they all grow the same too.
I've posted this in this thread before but it's a great lecture and really sheds some light on a rather uncomfortable subject for pot growers in that unlike most other plants, we are not using true breeding varieties and must accept the caveats of variation that come with that
YouTube
Well I think I found a way to test your post as it relates to my previous post. I have veggie seeds that I have harvested from crops (carrots, squash, etc) and then commercial versions of those same strains of respective veggies. Based off what you posted, the commercial version should be a very high germination rate (and indoors they are....not so much outdoors). I will test the germination rate of those seeds that we harvested both indoors and outdoors between the commercial and mine. I will also try outdoor germination at various times (think in terms of different weather) and find out how much of a difference the various timeline (again think temps and humidity, not date)impacts the germination rate outdoors. Will be interesting to see if there is one specific batch that has significantly higher germination rate.
Is there any question that indoor will have higher germination rates than outdoor?
425jesse
Well-Known Member
I use bottled water and I would say the seed was between 70 and 80 with 100% humidity for its germination. Also, mine didn't have to travel to anywhere frozen. Do cannabis seeds really have a dormant period? I know flower bulbs do, and bamboo tubers, and plenty, but I'd never hear of that with weed seeds, learn something everyday!
TheFertilizer
Well-Known Member
If you could find some type of "wild" variety of food seed to test against the commercial varieties I think that would get closer to the heat of the matter. The chemicals they treat the seeds with do help of course, but if we're examining if this is an issue of genetic variability then testing the offspring of commercial varieties will be testing a further stabilized version of their genetic package.
Edit:
Oh and no green yet but I see the ground disturbed. Should break out later tonight or tomorrow.
flytier
Well-Known Member
If they are like salmon it could be the temp swings from outdoors. They get stressed from 2 deg C in a short period.
But that begs the question as to what it is that is different that causes that better rate. Which then in term moves back to my question about why the disparity in germination rate of cannabis seeds indoors. Why with strains that should most definitely be considered stabilized and should certainly have good breeding stock based on the seed bank they come from (if they truly do in fact come from that bank) do some growers post "well I only had 1 of 6 germinate from my white widow seeds".
Could it have been a bad batch? I suppose, but I can tell you that if I was a breeder, I would test every batch randomly and make sure each random sample had at least a 90% (or higher) germination rate. So barring a bad batch.....OR......old stock (not sure the degradation rate of successful germination as seeds age....but I know I read all the time about someone popping a bean they had from some strain 10 years ago and it germinating)....the only thing that makes sense to me if somehow missing the mark on an environmental factor (what that could be, I have no clue).
I talked to my brother (grows commercially in Washington State) about his germination success rate when he grows from seeds and his response was something along the lines of "I don't track it much but I would have to say with several hundred seeds its about 95% or higher".
But anyways, I have beaten this dead horse enough. Time for dinner and relaxing with Ms Stank!
flytier
Well-Known Member
My seeds, both the HAh and the NLa
flytier
Well-Known Member
Oops, the JHa and NLa both came up within the last couple hours. We're on the go!
flytier
Well-Known Member
Pictures tomorrow. I'm in bed now.
TheFertilizer
Well-Known Member
OH this poor horse...
So what I know about stabilization is that it really doesn't occur until about the 8th inbred generation of a family line. If you go to ACE seed's site for example, they have "stabilized varieties" and one like Bangi Haze is listed as an F8 for instance. They have one on there that's all the way to F24 but I can't remember what it is ( they list it in their catalog a lot more clearly if you have it).
Anyway, from what I know about Jack Herer that Sensi bred, it's not very stabilized at all. It was bred out to skunk and backcrossed against a Northern Lights or something. Then who knows what GHS did to make theirs, and then crossing it out with a Ruderalis is going to add a ton of genetic variability. So unless they then worked in 8 more generations of inbreeding on this strain, it's not actually well stabilized. I suppose it's possible that's what they did, though it would have taken them years, and they could just as easily make an unstable cross and name it whatever they want.
But so all that being said, it would be exceedingly hard to actually track a rate of germination below 5% with a sample size of 100 or fewer seeds. You'd really need a sample size in the thousands or more to get a good sense of how well one variety germinates over another, because if only 5 out of 100 don't germinate that's 95%, but if only 700 out of 1000 germinate, then it reveals it's actually only 70%. Now, out of 10, or 20 seeds, if one or two don't germinate, you might be comfortable calling that an 80-90% germination rate, but what if the same seeds out of a sample size of 1000 had only a 70% rate? As far as I'm aware, there are no seedbanks this transparent with their methods.
I'm not saying that environmental factors can't also play a big role, but I think it's important to remember that cannabis is still mostly on the wild side. We have our domesticated varieties, but they're not all that far removed from their wild counterparts, at least not as much as commercial crops that you're comparing to might be. Now all I'm saying is that in the wild, there are vastly more varying environmental conditions that the seeds most overcome to germinate. I mean, a lot of cannabis seeds have been propagated by passing through the intestines of animals, so I think the idea that it's environmental conditions not being just right that's leading to germination problems kind of paints cannabis in a much more delicate light than it seems to actually be in given the way it propagates naturally.
SO I think there's a couple things going on... Low sample sizes making germination rates appear higher or lower than they really are, and commercially designed seed varieties that are developed to have extremely high germination rates. It shifts the perspective and makes it seem like a couple of seeds not germinating is indicative of poor stock, but in reality it could just be the nature of the beast. it may not even be indicative of quality, but just better survivors. Ditch weed probably germinates better than a lot of the strains we actually like.
It won't be like this forever, especially not with legalization. The reason I bring up sample sizes and commercial seeds is because they've been not only designed, but basically engineered over the years. So for example when I talked about them using radiation to cause a mutation they liked and then selectively breed that. Those types of mutations are often 1 in 100,000 or even 1 in 1,000,000. They had big, concerted, industry efforts into producing a variety that would germinate despite poor environmental conditions, and so as much work as modern breeders put into modern cannabis, I just do not think they've actually got it domesticated to the same point. Our stated germination rates are based on sample sizes of hundreds and thousands, and so this makes us believe that the odd germination failure is the fault of the grower when it could have just as easily been the luck of the draw. Conditions can be perfect, but if you have a dud, you have a dud. The real question being how many "duds" are there actually. When commercial seeds have worked this hard to rule out all their duds, I just can't imagine cannabis being at the same level, at least not yet.
Anyway I better stop yacking about this before I sound like a total know it all. My teacher just went on about this at great lengths during my plant science class I took. I swear he grew pot but just didn't admit to it. I told him how they feminized seeds and he straight up wrote it down haha
Well I can tell you this.....when Stank Genetics is a real thing, and when I have the ability to build an grow area with separate climate controlled environments, I will test this hypothesis of mine. See for me, its not even about the cannabis side of it. My experience with regular veggies and germination between controlled temps and environment vs the outdoors points me towards environmental conditions being a bigger factor than many people think with germination success. Time will tell.
Now I don't discount all the variables that we don't know or see, such as seed storage at the breeders and seed banks, the seed breeders harvesting too early in an effort fill orders, seed companies not being selective with what they sell (we all know we have gotten those deliveries and looked at a seed or two in a pack and think "really? you think this is a seed a customer would want?") or any of the other things that might impact it.
I can however track those factors on my own stock of seeds.
Now I don't discount all the variables that we don't know or see, such as seed storage at the breeders and seed banks, the seed breeders harvesting too early in an effort fill orders, seed companies not being selective with what they sell (we all know we have gotten those deliveries and looked at a seed or two in a pack and think "really? you think this is a seed a customer would want?") or any of the other things that might impact it.
I can however track those factors on my own stock of seeds.
That was an incredible read Fert! Reps for that. This is a scientific and statistical explanation of why 420 guarantees germination in their seeds. They know that you're paying a lot per seed and it might be more of a crap shoot than we like to think. I'm not tossing seeds on the ground and hoping for the best. I'm following "best practices" on various websites, and when I can't get a seed to pop, I figure it's the seed and not me. Ego? Maybe, but like Fert said, these are wild plants we are attempting to domesticate. Wild plants produce hundreds of seeds in an attempt to further their genetics with a few babies. I'm soaking one seed from a plant that was forced to produce seed using science. I feel okay blaming the seed
.I know the VS genetics I got are hand selected, and if one won't sprout, I'll take the blame!
flytier
Well-Known Member
Wow, I'll have to read this stuff when I get home on my laptop.