Graytail's 4th Perpetual: 4x4 Samsung Panels

[Conradino23]

Well right wing anarchist here... if we're at contradiction in terms. And honestly human being is not and has never been clear-cut in any way. Most of the time our political views are effect of personal experience and personal outlook. And these are very far from historically established labels and rarely rational. At the end of the day anything goes IMO.

 

[Mr. Krip]

His area is 80% Dem, and mine is about 45%. He grew up here. Granted, he's always lived there, but he could have become the same safe institutionalist here.

It's not him per se, it's those folks who are so firmly liberal - they're usually what you would think of as conservative people. They don't like to be individuals unless everyone approves. They get fingers and scowls pointed at 'em. That's not exactly liberal.

I appreciate the consideration Gray, thank you. Just know in the future, feel free to post anything you feel relative to whatever conversation thats taking place over there. I sincerely mean I keep an open forum over there brother.

Also a great write up. I figured you might be a Libertarian as well, with conservative leanings in certain areas. It kind of fucks with people when I tell them I am conservative and liberal. I have had people tell me to my face that "You can't be both!!" I struggle to understand why people are so quick to lump things in such defined boxes with rules that you can't think this or feel that if you believe something about one subject. Why can't I be a fiscal conservative and a social liberal? I don't want anyone controlling what I can or can't do in my bedroom or any other areas, why the hell would I want to impose my will or beliefs on others. Just because I don't like, support, or appreciate someones life choices doesn't mean they aren't entitled to live their life they way they want (with the caveat it doesn't involve hurting others). I just want as little government as possible. Its worthless in my opinion in its current status (and that isn't a dig at our POTUS....the problem has been around for much longer and its much bigger than one person) and will likely stay that way.

I think most of us here are actually Libertarian, regardless of whether we know it and which party we might vote for.

IMHO, as someone who was around in the 60's (though, still young!), the people who call themselves "Liberals" are actually Progressives, or people who've always voted (or come from families who've always voted) Democrat and don't realize the "Liberals" are no longer liberal.

Back in "the day", being Liberal meant you opposed the illegal wars in Asia (and elsewhere), advocated free speach, advocated for Women's Rights, had peaceful protests & sit-ins, etc. If Liberals were still actually liberal, I'd probably be one myself since I'm basically a hippie, anyways!

Today, there is no anti-war movement on the left, though I suspect now that we have Trump in office, we'll see one again soon. They certainly don't advocate for free speech, unless that speech aligns with their ideals. They shut down conservative speakers on campuses, ban conservatives on social media platforms, and chase conservative politicians with their families out of restaurants. As for women's rights, as long as it's not a conservative woman, you'll have a friend in a "Liberal" today and, if your a minority who happens to be conservative, surely you'll be ostracized. Peaceful protests & sit-in? Just look at Antifa or the paid protesters that descended on Congress during the recent Supreme Court Hearings. They're hateful, violent, and destructive.

It's not even about conservative vs. liberal or right vs. left anymore. It's just right vs. wrong and all of us need to find a way to share this earth together in some sort of "harmony".

Sorry to expand on the rant!

 

[DrDoob]

I think the hypocrisy of politicians has distorted the words “conservative” and “liberal”. Nowadays the conservatives trade security and morals for short term financial gain and the liberals try to force their square peg morals in everyone’s round holes.

With the internet the propaganda has become so rampant it’s worse than Orwell even predicted. People will believe anything, even otherwise “smart” people love being told what to think and they often don’t even know it.

I think what people today are lacking is empathy and the ability to figure things out for themselves. People seem to be far too wrapped up in themselves to consider others viewpoints and far to willing to accept the ideas of those who share a few misleading facts or even straight out lies.

What do I know I was raised with good Christian morals and am unwavering in my personal view of what’s right so I’d have to now be considered a liberal when just a few years ago I was instantly considered a conservative.

 

[Van Stank]

I think most of us here are actually Libertarian, regardless of whether we know it and which party we might vote for.

IMHO, as someone who was around in the 60's (though, still young!), the people who call themselves "Liberals" are actually Progressives, or people who've always voted (or come from families who've always voted) Democrat and don't realize the "Liberals" are no longer liberal.

Back in "the day", being Liberal meant you opposed the illegal wars in Asia (and elsewhere), advocated free speach, advocated for Women's Rights, had peaceful protests & sit-ins, etc. If Liberals were still actually liberal, I'd probably be one myself since I'm basically a hippie, anyways!

Today, there is no anti-war movement on the left, though I suspect now that we have Trump in office, we'll see one again soon. They certainly don't advocate for free speech, unless that speech aligns with their ideals. They shut down conservative speakers on campuses, ban conservatives on social media platforms, and chase conservative politicians with their families out of restaurants. As for women's rights, as long as it's not a conservative woman, you'll have a friend in a "Liberal" today and, if your a minority who happens to be conservative, surely you'll be ostracized. Peaceful protests & sit-in? Just look at Antifa or the paid protesters that descended on Congress during the recent Supreme Court Hearings. They're hateful, violent, and destructive.

It's not even about conservative vs. liberal or right vs. left anymore. It's just right vs. wrong and all of us need to find a way to share this earth together in some sort of "harmony".

Sorry to expand on the rant!

Wish I could hit like 10x on this one brother.

I have an aunt in Vermont (no attempt to rhyme I swear) who is ultra liberal under your and my definition of liberal. She has no idea of how vile modern liberals have become and their justification of their actions (often times criminal) to attempt to bully anyone into no longer opposing their views. Burning down cars and businesses are acceptable actions to many (my daughter in law is one , and she has even defended violence by saying "sometimes you just gotta get peoples attention by any means possible") along with physical harm. Liberals as I knew them would defend any platform for free speech regardless of the message, not use threats of physical harm or even violence to shut them down. Its disturbing for sure man.

People that think their actions are justified because their cause is good should really stop and think about it from the other perspective. What if the opposing side was doing the same thing in the name of their cause? Would you view them as being justified? If you feel you have the right to inflict bodily harm on someone not harming you, in order to be heard....or to try and make a point, YOU are the problem.

And that isn't to say the right doesn't have its fair share of issues as well. Its a crazy world.....but I thankful we have a place like this where even if people disagree, you don't see the ugliness you see in the rest of the world. No name calling, no attacking, just open dialogue. Ain't it awesome!

 

[Graytail]

You and I think a lot alike, Mr. Krip.

The Left used to be kind and hopeful - the good-hearted dreamers in the mix. They recognized that their perfect world probably would never exist, but they were the ones responsible for pushing us that direction. The Right kept hands on the reins, resisting change. Everybody got along; the pendulum swung back and forth.

I don't know what Progressives stand for though. They won't stop the rant long enough to exchange sentences.

For those in the audience from the Left ... that's all we see ... hair-on-fire hysteria and passionate blurtings. What they say makes no sense. I know it's not the good Democrats that are doing it, but their leaders all are. I'd have a hard time supporting that sort of behavior. It confuses the crap out of me. No one is embarrassed by it? It's all "right on!" "preach sista!"? This stuff is right and good?

I'm just so confused ...

 

[Van Stank]

I think the hypocrisy of politicians has distorted the words “conservative” and “liberal”. Nowadays the conservatives trade security and morals for short term financial gain and the liberals try to force their square peg morals in everyone’s round holes.

With the internet the propaganda has become so rampant it’s worse than Orwell even predicted. People will believe anything, even otherwise “smart” people love being told what to think and they often don’t even know it.

I think what people today are lacking is empathy and the ability to figure things out for themselves. People seem to be far too wrapped up in themselves to consider others viewpoints and far to willing to accept the ideas of those who share a few misleading facts or even straight out lies.

What do I know I was raised with good Christian morals and am unwavering in my personal view of what’s right so I’d have to now be considered a liberal when just a few years ago I was instantly considered a conservative.

Well said brother!

 

[Van Stank]

You and I think a lot alike, Mr. Krip.

The Left used to be kind and hopeful - the good-hearted dreamers in the mix. They recognized that their perfect world probably would never exist, but they were the ones responsible for pushing us that direction. The Right kept hands on the reins, resisting change. Everybody got along; the pendulum swung back and forth.

I don't know what Progressives stand for though. They won't stop the rant long enough to exchange sentences.

For those in the audience from the Left ... that's all we see ... hair-on-fire hysteria and passionate blurtings. What they say makes no sense. I know it's not the good Democrats that are doing it, but their leaders all are. I'd have a hard time supporting that sort of behavior. It confuses the crap out of me. No one is embarrassed by it? It's all "right on!" "preach sista!"? This stuff is right and good?

I'm just so confused ...

I have been told several times before by those that confuse us......any means to resist the right and TRUMP! When I try to push what exactly that means, it all breaks down from there. Its always deflection and a "BUT He....." as a justification. I still haven't ever been given an answer from a modern liberal as to what they are resisting. On the rare occasion I do get one....its usually "Hate". When asked to expound on hate, I usually get a pretty good example of what exactly hate is as I watch them have a meltdown at being unable to discuss their feelings or opinions. I generally smile as the barrage of personal attacks get slung my way and usually respond with "and you wonder why people don't listen to you or take you serious".

Do you ever watch Chrower's Change My Mind clips? Yeah he's a far right guy, but I love watching him go and sit down and offer those that act these ways an opportunity to present their points of view and change his mind. I get a lot of chuckles watching the college snowflakes have full fledged meltdowns while he calmly communicates to them his thoughts and feelings. I don't always agree with him, often times I disagree, but I respect the shit out of him for doing what he does. If you haven't checked one out, give a go. Watch how respects the other person, actually listens and hears what they have to say and then responds and then the meltdowns ensue.

 

[Graytail]

I've seen some pretty impressive Jordan Peterson clips, too. Something in his manner simply disassembles the ranters.

I want to be sure we're not insulting our good Liberal and Progressive friends though. I reiterate, it's the leaders that I shake my head in disgust at, not their followers. The media keeps showing us the worst of them, dunno why. Passion sells, but I don't think blind hatred does.

Why is the media making the Left look so horrible, while at the same time insisting that the Left is the only moral and honorable way to go? Their ratings are up but at what cost? Now we all think that Progressives stand for tribal hatred for others, hysterical "protests", government corruption, smearing political opponents, etc. The media doesn't show us the good Democrats anymore, and their leaders have abandoned civility and reason for foolish insults.

Heheh, a couple times a week I say to myself, "don't they realize we can see them and hear them talking about us"? All those smug faces blurting hysterically about their fantastical opinions about people they couldn't stand to spend a couple hours with in a small-town bar, like any well adjusted secure person could. I can see the sweat breaking out on their brows, their tight faces waxy and afraid, eyes flitting around for some means of escape ... yeah, that'd be real impressive I'm sure. They should just all powder their faces and get those fancy wigs and ruffled collars, and be the court hangers-on that they are ... gasping and twittering amongst themselves about the latest outrage.

That was fun ...

 

[Mr. Krip]

the liberals try to force their square peg morals in everyone’s round holes.

 

[Weaselcracker]

Lots to be said on this subject but it occurs to me that maybe the one thing that makes this forum better is - better government.

 

[Doc Bud]

I can't be insulted by politics. I'm an anarcho-capitalist. I get along with folks from the left and the right and have common stances on many issues with both.

My thing is the Non-Aggression Principle. (look it up if you aren't familiar)

In my ideal world, all of you are 100% free to pursue your own course in life, smoking, growing, eating, drinking, making, breaking, fabricating, copying, creating, mimicing ANYTHING, ANYWHERE.....provided your enjoyment of liberty does not infringe on mine.

And ditto the other way around.

Free Markets
Private Property
No taxes

and NO WAR!!!

 

[Mr. Krip]

I can't be insulted by politics. I'm an anarcho-capitalist. I get along with folks from the left and the right and have common stances on many issues with both.

My thing is the Non-Aggression Principle. (look it up if you aren't familiar)

In my ideal world, all of you are 100% free to pursue your own course in life, smoking, growing, eating, drinking, making, breaking, fabricating, copying, creating, mimicing ANYTHING, ANYWHERE.....provided your enjoyment of liberty does not infringe on mine.

And ditto the other way around.

Free Markets
Private Property
No taxes

and NO WAR!!!

See, another Libertarian!

Libertarians seek to maximize political freedom and autonomy, emphasizing freedom of choice, voluntary association, and individual judgment.

 

[Graytail]

But the problem with Libertarians is that they're not interested in government and Parties, so ...

Hard to create a Party.

I vote for the one most likely to leave me the fuck alone. Screaming in my face that I'm a bad person doesn't help.

 

[Van Stank]

I can't be insulted by politics. I'm an anarcho-capitalist. I get along with folks from the left and the right and have common stances on many issues with both.

My thing is the Non-Aggression Principle. (look it up if you aren't familiar)

In my ideal world, all of you are 100% free to pursue your own course in life, smoking, growing, eating, drinking, making, breaking, fabricating, copying, creating, mimicing ANYTHING, ANYWHERE.....provided your enjoyment of liberty does not infringe on mine.

And ditto the other way around.

Free Markets
Private Property
No taxes

and NO WAR!!!

Now I really like you Doc!

 

[Van Stank]

But the problem with Libertarians is that they're not interested in government and Parties, so ...

Hard to create a Party.

I vote for the one most likely to leave me the fuck alone. Screaming in my face that I'm a bad person doesn't help.

Lots of great chat. Thanks guys.

 

[Amy Gardner]

couple times a week I say to myself, "don't they realize we can see them and hear them talking about us"?

Lots to be said on this subject but it occurs to me that maybe the one thing that makes this forum better is - better government.

I was thinking the same. A mod team that aren’t afraid to piss people off for the sake of keeping the forum a lot classier than most... and then the folks that hang around are ones that respect that (even if they bump up against it from time to time).

thing is the Non-Aggression Principle. (look it up if you aren't familiar)

This is it for me. I grew up in what was probably a liberal environment. But I wouldn’t call myself one now. Like others have said, too much violent action being justified by liberal ideals. My introduction to political action came at 14yo and something called non-violent action training was a central part of that. One of its benefits is that it teaches people to express their perspective without ranting, so it can lead to better communication all round.

My problem is that while anarchism appeals to me greatly I also find it hard to shake my convictions about public healthcare and education. But we have had a history of both of those things being pretty good (in the past, not so much now) which is different to the stateside experience I know. So yeah - I think healthcare and education should be free. I think everyone should be equipped to collect and store their own water and power - indeed we should have to do this! And I think the majority of food should be produced locally. But then, many current structures of capitalism would fail. Maybe that’s be good.

So I don’t know what I’d label myself as - I prolly wouldn’t. These labels often mean different things to different folk.

I think it’s true too that the labels of liberal, conservative etc. have lost any enduring meaning and purchase. Because of course one can be both - maybe the problem is partly that we’ve given too much purchase to these labels. Here, our ‘Liberal’ party is the socially Conservative party and the right end of politics here. And the left (if you can still call it that) is called the Labour Party (so grew out of the union movement originally) and it can be conservative in many areas too. We’re a pretty conservative nation actually, politically speaking - or just uptight, sometimes I’m not sure! We have a further right leaning ‘Country’ party and they are in a formal coalition with the conservative Liberal party (otherwise they’d never be in power). So it’s convoluted. Small l big L - I don’t much care for either these days.

Gray - back to growing things for a moment. How do you manage the upping of light intensity once into flower? Do you just crank it once you flip? Or ease it up slowly. And I know you run your boards about 20w each during veg... what to you give them max during flower?

 

[Graytail]

Gray - back to growing things for a moment. How do you manage the upping of light intensity once into flower? Do you just crank it once you flip? Or ease it up slowly. And I know you run your boards about 20w each during veg... what to you give them max during flower?

Thanks Amy, good question.

I spent a LOT of time on lighting research, but without any measuring instruments of my own, and I'm finding some variances. I designed the bloom room for 1200 umols at 2 feet, giving me 500 umols at 4 feet, for a 2 foot canopy. But I'm getting leaf fatigue in the upper one foot of the canopy - they dry and fade and curl, even at 70% RH. I've seen data that says that 1200 umols is too much, that 1000 is better, so I'm pretty sure I'm at maximum at 2 feet, meaning I over-designed a bit. I'm at 670 watts in 16.5 sqft = 40 watts/sqft. 1000 umols would be 33 watts/sqft. But ... I'm also running these very soft, so I'm getting higher Lu/watt. At any rate, it looks like you don't need more than 35.

In veg I run longer hours, 20/4, so I need less light. In veg, I'm seeing no such fatigue. I'm running 27 watts/sqft and I haven't been careful about headroom. I can get them as close as 18 inches without any trouble. So that's a bit puzzling.

To answer the question, I don't turn power up and down. I have my panels mounted at the top of the space and I move the plants up and down on risers to get the headroom I want. And the flip goes from one room to another, so it's an instant thing. One day they're under 27 watts at 20/4 and the next day they're at 40 watts at 11/13.

I don't believe it's worth the time to ease them up gradually. If I was running batches, I might fool with weekly changes in light cycle, but I bet it wouldn't be distinctly better.

 

[Amy Gardner]

 

[Amy Gardner]

And actually when I think about it... I’m an agonist. I think disagreement is important and that the real social development comes when we can still find ways to communicate and and co-exist with respect at the places where we are most in disagreement and where we don’t understand one another. Which is not quite the same as agreeing to disagree. Agonistic politics. That’s what we need more of.

 

[Graytail]

Good fences make good neighbors?