First time grower

[george goff sr]

It's all good and I know the feeling. You get passionate when growing but no matter how long you've been growing you get a kick in the nuts from time to time and it always hurts.

It takes a while to fully understand because their are so many ways to grow but once you find your feet it will become second nature.. I'm still only just understanding stuff now that the old school growers on here have been preaching to me for ages but once I work it out I'm like ahhhh I see. They probably think I'm bonkers.

Now watering for me is way different to you but you could try it my way as your on the fence. I grow big plants in small pots with extra air to the roots (perlite) more hydroponic. but you have smaller plants in bigger pots with extra moisture to the roots (soil) more soil style. so as I have so much oxygen at the roots I water 4x per day lol. With your added soil it may be fine that you water less often but the Low PPM would concern me and i would star bringing my feedings earlier untill my run off PPM matched or is a little higher then feed PPM

by any chance does anybody know how to program the infinety co2 controller? and it looks like i might have my yellow leaves problem solved, been feeding cal-mag everyday and no new leaves have turned

 

[Trump]

Welcome @george goff sr !

Patience my friend. When you get issues it takes time for the plant to be able to make the necessary changes. Cal/Mag deficiencies are common. As was suggested, next time out I would start in a cannabis centric prepared soil, like Happy Frog or Fox Farms Ocean Forest to simplify what may go wrong when you are trying to diagnose issues. There are many out there so you aren't limited to just those. I use Roots Organic Original.

Good to see that the cal/mag helped out. Try and keep it simple your first few times out. After reading the list of things you bought and are trying to employ I can see how it can get a bit overwhelming. For now I would dispense with the CO2 and save it for when you get the basics down and better understand how to utilize it. CO2 injection into a sealed room is hard enough to run. Doing it in a tent is just that much harder. IMO, running CO2 should only happen after you've maxed out every other way of improving your yields.

From what I can see you are doing a great job, especially as a first timer, so I would encourage you to not get too discouraged when things don't go as you planned.

On your next run look into Low Stress Training(LST) techniques to raise your dry yield amounts. I like to run the ScrOG method as my preferred technique and have learned a new variation that makes it even better. ScrOG is very popular with tent growers as it helps in mitigating the height issues that some run into when they've vegged their plants a little too long.

Here's a primer I like to post for first time gardeners. It shows the relationship between media, pot size and shape and watering practices. I am not the author.

This will be a long read based on my personal knowledge, opinions, research and others work to consolidate information for our members. I'm not presenting my opinions as facts so take from this what you like. I will be putting it in subsection format for easy reference.

First I want to make an important point to take into consideration before reading. The tap root will grow directly downwards to the bottom of the container before spreading out.

PERCHED WATER TABLE

What is it?

The perched water table is basically the height of the saturation zone where capillary action and gravity cancel eachother out. This area will be saturated with water and will be responsible most growers issues with watering practices especially in soil grows.

WHAT IS CAPILLARY ACTION

CAPILLARY action is is the combination of the cohesive and adhesive properties of water.

In short adhesion is water clinging to the media (think of it like wicking or soaking up)

Cohesion is where the water clings to itself.

So as the water is wicked up (adhesion) it pulls more water with it through Cohesion and at the point gravity and these properties cancel eachother out is the perched water table.

This perched water table will always remain the SAME HEIGHT and will always stay saturated unless taken up by the plants or evaporates when the pot dries out. No matter the container height, depth or volume of media. So if a tall skinny container had a perched water table of 1" then a short wide one of the same media will also have a perched water table of 1". Which means the ratio of water to air in a wide pot will be higher than a tall skinny pot which will have a higher air to water ratio... keep this in mind as we get further.

Different media's have different perched water tables. A more absorbent media will have a higher perched water table than a less absorbent media... REMEMBER THIS as it makes a big difference on pot selection for your media.

DIFFERENT MEDIA

Water holding capacity is directly related to the height of the perched water table so soils with more clay or silt and less sand will have a higher perched water table than those with more sand because sand is a larger particle.

The larger the overall particles of the media the lower the perched water table and better the drainage.

By adding things like perlite or vermiculite (while vermiculite is good at absorbing water it also improves drainage so its helpful in keeping a more even level of moisture throught the media while increasing drainage due to its size) we can lower the perched water table by reducing the wicking (adhesion) ability and creating more space between particles overall reducing the cohesion effect and inturn the height of the perched water table.

Media like peat based or coco have a much higher drainage and lower perched water table than soil and are therefore less susceptible to over watering but will require more frequent watering due to the lower water holding capacity.

Adding things like perlite or hydroton to the bottom of the pots will NOT reduce the water table but instead raise it. This is because as I said the height of the water table will not change for a given media. So if you add things like that to the bottom you are essentially just moving the water table up.

Basically the larger the particles IN the media the better drainage and lower the water table.

If you want to see the height of your perched water table use a clear cup with drain holes fill with media and saturate it. Wait a few hrs for drainage and then come back and look. You can see the difference in the varying media's if you want to experiment.

If you feel you have over watered or your perched water table height is too high you can simply tilt your pot on a 45 degree angle and release more water from the media as runoff. To help visualize think of it this way if you have a perched water table of 2”. You can draw an imaginary horizontal line at that height, when you tilt the pot you have less media below that line and therefore you will have less water in the pot after tilting it.

POT SIZE

I have already covered this a bit but my opinion is if you are using a media with a higher water table you will benefit from taller narrower pots and if using a media with a lower perched water table the shorter wider ones may benefit you depending on your watering practices.

I prefer the taller over wider no matter the media as I choose to water often and have a higher air holding capacity and lower water table but that can work against you if you can't water as frequently and as plants grow it can greatly increase the frequency required as the roots will be pulling the water out of that saturation zone quickly. So you may want to use taller pots for small plants and transplant into a wider one as they grow.

You also don't want a pot that's to tall and the top portion of the media is drying out to fast while the bottom is wet.

Let's use seedlings as an example take a solo cup or a large container... the water table will be the same height in either. I see sooo often ppl trying to water a tiny bit in circles or mist the surface and for lack of other words IT DRIVES ME NUTS. Why because the roots are so shallow they are not at risk of being over watered. Remember though tap roots grow straight down so we to be mindful as they grow depending on the gas exchange of the media that the majority of roots are not sitting in the saturated zone with poor gas exchange because this will cause lack of oxygen that we incorrectly refer to as overwatering which is actually the cause not the symptom.

It's important to fill containers to the top to give us a good amount of space above the perched water table that high in o2. If you fill a solo cup halfway with soil it's likely to be sitting in the saturation zone and will not do well.


Also going to make the point that plants will be most susceptible to overwatering when the roots first hit the bottom and spread out until they fill the bottom and start moving back up out of the saturation zone. So again it may be more beneficial to use a taller narrow pot for the early stages of growth (2-4 weeks depending on growth) and transplant into a wider pot as you go. After the transplant almost all of the roots will be above the saturation zone and it become much harder to over water. New roots will again work their way down into the saturation zone but you will have plenty above so its less likely to over water and why uppotting as you go I see as a benefit instead of starting in a large wide container.

POT MATERIAL

Some prefer plastic others fabric, air pots etc.

This can affect the perched water table by evaporation as the lager the exposed surface area the more evaporation that occurs from the media in say fabric pots. This imo has a few benefits.... slightly reducing the perched water table but more so the exposure for gas exchange that's happening and that's a good thing for o2 levels in the root zone that I feel are directly related to growth rates and I'll explain why going a bit off topic for a second.

It's no coincidence that the fastest growing media's have the highest amounts of o2 and gas exchange.... for eg aeroponics have unlimited to rich o2 and water. Hydro similar with slightly less o2, soilless media's such as coco and I would possible include peat and last soil. If you notice they are in order of growth rates and its not hard to see the difference in their air holding capacity in that order. And the fact that larger particles also have a better gas exchange rate. This is important because the plants take in oxygen and expel co2 in the rootzone as do the microbes on top of that so good gas exchange is important for both.

Just a note... air pruning has nothing to do with the benefits of fabric pots all it does is signal the roots to grow in a different direction.

But let's get back on topic of watering and how it's affected.

TEMPERATURE AND HUMIDITY

The warmer the temps the more evaporation occurs.

The lower your humidity the more evaporation occurs

The more surface area exposed to air movement (wind) the more evaporation.

Think those don't need an explanation. But the difference in pot material coupled with these environmental factors will have an impact on your watering needs.

The temperature of the media not only affects evaporation but also directly affect the temperature of the plant and leaf temps. This has a large impact on nutrient uptake and transportation.

First let me say that this next part is opinion and I will gives my reasoning for my opinions. With the exception of hydro (leaving this part out as this post is about watering not hydro) roots like to be about the same temperature as the leaves contrary to what's talked about from many prominent growers in the industry but not all like Mr.Bruce Bugbee. IMO ideal root temps are the same as ideal leaf temps and overall plant temps especially since the root temps have a large impact on the plant and leaf temps. What are ideal temps imo and many studies show that leaf temps (NOT AIR TEMPS) of around 77f are most efficient. So how does a cool rootzone impact the plants negatively? Well it's 2 fold because of the cool temps the viscosity (measument of flow rate) of the sap will decrease so its harder for the plant to move the nutrients through the plant. The other is absorption and one fact is that in a cooler rootzone the concentration of nutrients is higher (but you just said it slows absorption) well it does as the nutrients build up in the roots it can absorb less and this has a direct impact negatively on the plant. It may appear to be overwatered because the plant is now struggling to take up and use oxygen. Add that to the slowed transpiration rates and you have the same symptom many refer to overwatering which again is lack of o2. Now take a cold rootzone where the plants slow water uptake and then add the saturation zone to it and you can see the road to correction and recover is a long one and can have huge impact on growth and yields.

So get your pots up off the floor

WET AND DRY CYCLES

in soil and peat with higher water tables or with wider pots or combination of wet and dry cycles are important. This is to allow the dry back (including the uptake of water from the saturation zone) to prevent symptoms of over watering and help with o2 levels. Remember the majority of roots will end up in the saturation zone with these media's or with wider pots. Which can become depleted of o2 quickly as gas exchange is lower in water and media made up of smaller particles. This is where pot size and shape are important for the size of plant. You have a small plant in large container and there is no way it can take up enough of the water in the saturation zone fast enough to get air exposure in a media that has low gas exchange and majority of the roots. So it's important to choose a pot size that will allow for this. It's also why using the finger method to gage watering is poor and lifting the pots is much better... when they are light you know they have taken up a good portion of the saturation zone and are ready to be watered again.

This is much less of an issue when using soilless like coco or peat/perlite.

 

[SmokingWings]

... and it looks like i might have my yellow leaves problem solved, been feeding cal-mag everyday and no new leaves have turned

Are you saying that every day is another dose of Calcium?

How will the excess calcium be removed if the plant starts to show signs of excess?

 

[george goff sr]

thank you for ur words of wisdom, i used happy frog for soil, and my only problem was the yellow leaves, everybody said use cal-mag but what information thats out there doesent really tell you how much to use and how to determine if your plant needs it and how much. from everything ive read, everybody grows different, for one question theres 40 or 50 answers and they are all different, so its just a guessing game. also , theres so many things that cause yellow leaves, over water, under water, to much light, not enough light, to much nutrients, not enough nutrients, to hot, to cold, so hows a first time grower learn, from what ive learned you read everything you can and take your best guess, as far as co2 in a tent ive got it down, tent was easy to seal. and have been using it daily, by feeding it manually 5 or 6 times a day, at 77 yrs old its wearing me out going up and down stairs, bathroom on second floor, tent in basement, means 10 to 15 trips up and down stairs LOL. as far as the article you posted most of it i already knew as i done extensive research before i started this project, so im not your average first time grower, ive spent 100's of hours over a 4 month period learning as much as i could about growing before starting this project for my son, he has severe glaucoma and spends a small fortune for medical marijuana at the dispensary, ($600 a month) i used to work at a hospital running the maintenance, bio-med and security depts , i used to hold hvac, black seal boiler and electrical licenses, so not to brag but im pretty smart ( wife didnt think so LOL) but this chinese controller program has been kicking my butt, seems like they dont have a grasp of the intricacies of the english language, , anyway you have a nice day,

 

[george goff sr]

Are you saying that every day is another dose of Calcium?

How will the excess calcium be removed if the plant starts to show signs of excess?

havent figured that out, LOL, but im not giving them that much, 2 ozs a day of the cal-mag mixed a half strength, and i stopped yesterday when plants didnt show anymore new yellow leaves, and this morning when i checked there was no new ones. keeping my fingers crossed

 

[Azimuth]

A shortage of calcium relative to magnesium will cause nitrogen to be bound to the magnesium and make it unavailable to the plant. The N Is still there, but the plant can't get at it. Adding calcium can balance out the cal/mag ratio and magically make N available once again.

Check out The Geespot thread if you're interested in the details. A bunch of organic growers hang out there and discuss various growing concepts, lead by @Gee64. Mostly organic growers in there but many of the basics apply to synthetic grows as well.

 

[Trump]

I would start with the manufacturers recommended dosage and adjust appropriately.

 

[george goff sr]

I would start with the manufacturers recommended dosage and adjust appropriately.

got up this morning to more leaves looking bad, any ideas? thanks george

 

[Trump]

Definitely a cal/mag deficiency. Water in your cal/mag as directed. It'll take a few days for it to make a difference. Damaged leaves won't come back.

 

[Buckets420]

Hi, just a little back round on me so everybody knows why i joined. i'm 77 yrs old and my oldest son lives with me and has glaucoma real bad and spends a small fortune at the medical dispensary ($600 month) ohio just legalized growing so i decided to try to help him out. i never do anything without extensive research so i went and got a 8x8 tent and all the bells and whistles, led lights, co2, humidifier, ppfd meter, ph meter, ec meter, osmosis water, etc. i started on 08/01/24 and my plants are already 11 to 13 ins tall and in 5 gallon fabric buckets, ive had a couple of hiccups on the way, but everything seems to be ok. (ill attach pictures if this forum allows it) i started with 10 seeds and they all grew, 5 real good and 5 not so good, (sour ape and purple lime mist ) i joined another forum and every time i asked a question i didn't really get an answer, so i thought id try another forum. if you have questions ill answer them as best as i can, i'm using vivosun nutrients, foxfarm soil mixed with coco, 50/50 mix, ph of water 6.5, ec level is anywhere from .18 to .25, runoff water is 1.27, moisture in buckets is .19 to .28 %, temp in tent runs between 72 to 78 degrees humidity 75 to 78 %, par is 300 to 400 ppfd, lights are 20 inches above canopy, i have product coming today to raise ph level of soil (currently 5.2 ) Whew, did i miss anything? Oh, my question LOL, 5 of my plants have between 7 and 8 nodes and i'd like to know if i should trim them now or wait awhile. plants are 39 days old.

They look healthy. Nothing like growing your own. Personally I'm waiting on the weather to get cooler so I can start plants indoors. Just harvested 4 plants from outdoors and had a good return for the first time outdoors. I haven't been to a dispensary for months now and probably saved a lot of money. Happy growing.

 

[SmokingWings]

i used happy frog for soil, and my only problem was the yellow leaves, everybody said use cal-mag but what information thats out there doesent really tell you how much to use and how to determine if your plant needs it and how much.

Most of the time a calcium deficiency shows as brown spots, anything from dark brown to a yellow brown to a reddish brown. Often these brown spots are surrounded by small areas of yellow but with time what was yellow will become brown until most of the leaf surface is a shade of brown.

What you are seeing as yellow leaves are what I would be calling a leaf with brown areas which is very different than a leaf that has died and turned entirely brown.

Just about every bottle, bag or box of calcium or calcium & magnesium product will have the amount to mix with water or to mix with the soil or to use as a top-dressing. Each method will get the job done but what can be confusing is understanding when the job gets done. When it comes to a calcium shortage I figure the job is finished when new leaves do not start to show the brown spots.

from everything ive read, everybody grows different, for one question theres 40 or 50 answers and they are all different, so its just a guessing game.

Part of this is because we cannot be there to see the other person's plants, lights, pots, soil mix and the day to day growing method. We have to rely on what the gardener says when they ask a question, how they describe what they see and then how they answer some of the questions they get asked. That is one of the reasons that a photograph of what they see is very helpful.

Then there are the times when someone includes a photo or two and ask what is wrong without even mentioning what they are seeing that makes them think there is a problem. It is kinda funny when someone asks "what is wrong" and what they see is not a problem at all but there are signs of another serious problem that they did not recognize.

also , theres so many things that cause yellow leaves, over water, under water, to much light, not enough light, to much nutrients, not enough nutrients, to hot, to cold, so hows a first time grower learn,

Best way to learn is to actively search out information along with growing more than one kind of plant. Before long the grower can realize that there are very few reasons that cause a leaf to turn yellow. Do an all-purpose web search on calcium deficiency and look at the hundred or more photos that can show up. At first is might be hard to notice the similarities of the shortage on all the different types of plants but before long it is easy to spot the way most examples look the same whether it is a cannabis plant or a tomato plant or maple tree.

It took me a couple of years to understand and accept the signs of a calcium deficiency on my plants. And I had to force myself to do something about it and use the calcium on a regular basis. Then it was another 6 months or so before I realized that I had actually solved the problem; one afternoon I asked myself "what happened to the brown spots?" and looked and sure enough they were not there on any of the recently grown plants.