i understand its all about respect, i will respect their wishes and not go over 3x3 in public. i read the PAD and its some crazy stuff, i will need to read it a few times. this is all great info and if you talk to these guys tell them that you on my part. i under stand most of this but want to read it a few more times before i bug u again. the one thing i wanted to know is if i use the clear inc's for 5 days before harvest like you said somewhere do i just use the clear ins by itself or with my leds?
Everything LED, Open Source Light?
- Thread starter Scooby_Snacks
- Start date
i understand its all about respect, i will respect their wishes and not go over 3x3 in public. i read the PAD and its some crazy stuff, i will need to read it a few times. this is all great info and if you talk to these guys tell them that you on my part. i under stand most of this but want to read it a few more times before i bug u again. the one thing i wanted to know is if i use the clear inc's for 5 days before harvest like you said somewhere do i just use the clear ins by itself or with my leds?
Yes clear inc's only for 12 hours a day for the last 3-5 days.. By doing this you will get more bud sparkel and it helps bring out the flavor.. Make sure your still not looking for the buds to fatten up.. Because they go straight into ripening mode..
Ok let's rap up this 12/12 method of adding supplemental Clear inc's to your flower room. The recommendation is.... Use a least half the wattage you currently are using with your normal flowering light setup. Whatever that might be,, LED, HID, CFL's T5's..... Example.. If your using 200w, use a least 100w of supplemental lighting...
Here are some standard ways of adding clear inc's to your 12/12 flower.. NOTE this standard method doesn't save on electricity AND adds more heat then the advanced method below... Because your adding the supplemental lighting wile your main flowering light is on..
1. Sun up and sun down (on for an hour or two in the morning and then on for an hour or two in the evening)
2. On for a 1/2 hour off for a 1/2 hour ( you can do this the entire time the lights are on for 12 hours or you can pick and chose different times of the day) choice is yours..
3. On all the time..
Now here is the ADVANCED way of adding clear inc's to your 12/12 flower.. This is the PREFERRED method especially for higher wattage setups, 250w or better. Saves on electricity and gets good results.
This method is called "Rauber's substitution Method"... You will find it in chapter 10 of the PAD manual...I will be showing how to find this manual shortly..
In this method you run clear inc's for 6 hours then run 6 hours of your normal flowering light. for a 12/12 type of flower. You divide the 12 hours of (on time) in half.. 6/6 on and then 12 off.. 12/12 total.
I've done a few studies using this method. LOL This method outperforms my standard 12/12 flower every time.
I have even taken it one step farther. I mix a small amount of 27k cfl's in the clear inc side of the 6 hour lighting. The cfl's seems to give my strain a better calyx to leaf ratio. I'm thinking about adding a few more small 27k cfl's as we speak.
I'm sure it's hard to believe you can get better results by running clear inc's and maybe a few small cfl's for 6 hours and then running your normal flowering light for 6 hours. But you can..........And you can do it with lees wattage used.
This actually starts to set you up nicely for the 24 hour flowering method.
Here are some standard ways of adding clear inc's to your 12/12 flower.. NOTE this standard method doesn't save on electricity AND adds more heat then the advanced method below... Because your adding the supplemental lighting wile your main flowering light is on..
1. Sun up and sun down (on for an hour or two in the morning and then on for an hour or two in the evening)
2. On for a 1/2 hour off for a 1/2 hour ( you can do this the entire time the lights are on for 12 hours or you can pick and chose different times of the day) choice is yours..
3. On all the time..
Now here is the ADVANCED way of adding clear inc's to your 12/12 flower.. This is the PREFERRED method especially for higher wattage setups, 250w or better. Saves on electricity and gets good results.
This method is called "Rauber's substitution Method"... You will find it in chapter 10 of the PAD manual...I will be showing how to find this manual shortly..
In this method you run clear inc's for 6 hours then run 6 hours of your normal flowering light. for a 12/12 type of flower. You divide the 12 hours of (on time) in half.. 6/6 on and then 12 off.. 12/12 total.
I've done a few studies using this method. LOL This method outperforms my standard 12/12 flower every time.
I have even taken it one step farther. I mix a small amount of 27k cfl's in the clear inc side of the 6 hour lighting. The cfl's seems to give my strain a better calyx to leaf ratio. I'm thinking about adding a few more small 27k cfl's as we speak.
I'm sure it's hard to believe you can get better results by running clear inc's and maybe a few small cfl's for 6 hours and then running your normal flowering light for 6 hours. But you can..........And you can do it with lees wattage used.
This actually starts to set you up nicely for the 24 hour flowering method.
so from what uve seen what yeild the most out of these? the 6/6 and 12 off? ir 12 hours with all the lights on at the same time?
cool, works for me. i wont beable to test this untill after my next grow because i am doing another test for somone. but after that i will be on it with pics in a 3x3 area.
Irish you are doing the led world a favor (trust me)... There will be a place in the market for a full spectrum LED light that runs 12/12. Like the ones your testing.. I gotta admit bro I've never seen someone as dedicated to finding the correct LED light to match HPS as you... So you just keep doing what your doing we are all watching ya bro...In the mean time I will hook you up with the info for the 24 hour thing. Once I get a tread started you will get a lot of questions answered... But please don't STOP your pursuit for the full spectrum LED that can compete with HID in a standard 12/12 type of flower... You will see it will pay off for you in the long run, the experience you will have by then will make the 24 hour thing seem very easy...LOL
Irish you are doing the led world a favor (trust me)... There will be a place in the market for a full spectrum LED light that runs 12/12. Like the ones your testing.. I gotta admit bro I've never seen someone as dedicated to finding the correct LED light to match HPS as you... So you just keep doing what your doing we are all watching ya bro...In the mean time I will hook you up with the info for the 24 hour thing. Once I get a tread started you will get a lot of questions answered... But please don't STOP your pursuit for the full spectrum LED that can compete with HID in a standard 12/12 type of flower... You will see it will pay off for you in the long run, the experience you will have by then will make the 24 hour thing seem very easy...LOL
i will never stop until i find the light. every company want to prove their light and thats why they send them to me, i believe every companys should get a chance to be able to show what their light can do. and i believe every grower should see the facts on how these lights work so their isnt allot of money getting waisted on lights that don't work.
i think if we work together we can do some crazy damage on total yield and THC production. with ur facts and my leds
Bionic
New Member
Would love to hear about the black light during the dark period... when you have a chance, of course.
Ok here is the deal with black lights. They are the exact same (inside) as clear inc's BUT black inc's are made out of what's called Black Light Blue (BLB) Glass instead of the normal clear glass. Due to variations in this (BLB) glass some black lights will have a slightly different speed. So the speed of black lights are inconsistent to say the least... When ever possible use LED 730nm instead of black lights for a dark 730nm spectrum.
Let talk about the darkness speed.. I reffer to speed as (time factor). That's how it was tought to me..
Standard Indoor Darkness (SID) has a 1.0 time factor. Witch means your plants get 12 hours of work done in 12 hours of time.
Standard Outdoor Darkness (SOD) has a time factor of .8 Witch means your plants get 12 hours worth of work done in 10 hours time.
This is one of the reasons plants in some parts of the world outdoors can flower using aprox 14 hours of day light and 10 hours of standard outdoor darkness (SOD).
Black lights have a time factor of aprox .9 Witch means your plants can get 12 hours worth of work done in 11 hours time. If the black light you have is exactly .9 with its time factor then you could flower indoors using 13 hours of (on time) with your light and 11 hours of a black light on time.. This would make your plants think they are flowering under a 12/12 type of flower. Now this would be ok .....BUT the (BLB) glass is inconsistent, so realistically all you can do is run 12.5 to 12.75 hours on and 11.25 to 11.5 hours of black light inorder for the plant to think it's under a 12/12 type of flower. Hope that makes sense. Black lights run form 40 to 75 watts a bulb and run very hot. The results from this type of flower are not worth the extra power consumption.. So you can do it but it's not worth it..
Some people use black lights from 1/4 hour to 1 full hour after the lights go out when they are using a LED setup. It helps make up for the missing speed or the lack of IR 730nm in most LED setups. If you notice NOW some LED light are starting to add IR 730nm to their lights.. But IMO 730nm needs to be closely controlled in veg and flower for optimum results..
I use Black Lights in the 24 hour flower method for the 730nm light source. That's it. But the 24 hour flowering method is much different then the method I just described above..
The 24 hour flowering method involves 660nm and 730nm (hence) the reason why I use black lights for the 730nm (it's a very cheap 730nm source) and black lights don't interfere with the darkness. They are actually a form of outdoor darkness.. I would much rather use LED 730nm. BUT currently there are no small LED IR 730nm only units available on the market.. (hint,hint)...Someone please make us some small 730nm LED units...LOL
So in conclusion... I only use black lights for a 730nm light source for the 24 hour flowering method.
Hope that helps..
Let talk about the darkness speed.. I reffer to speed as (time factor). That's how it was tought to me..
Standard Indoor Darkness (SID) has a 1.0 time factor. Witch means your plants get 12 hours of work done in 12 hours of time.
Standard Outdoor Darkness (SOD) has a time factor of .8 Witch means your plants get 12 hours worth of work done in 10 hours time.
This is one of the reasons plants in some parts of the world outdoors can flower using aprox 14 hours of day light and 10 hours of standard outdoor darkness (SOD).
Black lights have a time factor of aprox .9 Witch means your plants can get 12 hours worth of work done in 11 hours time. If the black light you have is exactly .9 with its time factor then you could flower indoors using 13 hours of (on time) with your light and 11 hours of a black light on time.. This would make your plants think they are flowering under a 12/12 type of flower. Now this would be ok .....BUT the (BLB) glass is inconsistent, so realistically all you can do is run 12.5 to 12.75 hours on and 11.25 to 11.5 hours of black light inorder for the plant to think it's under a 12/12 type of flower. Hope that makes sense. Black lights run form 40 to 75 watts a bulb and run very hot. The results from this type of flower are not worth the extra power consumption.. So you can do it but it's not worth it..
Some people use black lights from 1/4 hour to 1 full hour after the lights go out when they are using a LED setup. It helps make up for the missing speed or the lack of IR 730nm in most LED setups. If you notice NOW some LED light are starting to add IR 730nm to their lights.. But IMO 730nm needs to be closely controlled in veg and flower for optimum results..
I use Black Lights in the 24 hour flower method for the 730nm light source. That's it. But the 24 hour flowering method is much different then the method I just described above..
The 24 hour flowering method involves 660nm and 730nm (hence) the reason why I use black lights for the 730nm (it's a very cheap 730nm source) and black lights don't interfere with the darkness. They are actually a form of outdoor darkness.. I would much rather use LED 730nm. BUT currently there are no small LED IR 730nm only units available on the market.. (hint,hint)...Someone please make us some small 730nm LED units...LOL
So in conclusion... I only use black lights for a 730nm light source for the 24 hour flowering method.
Hope that helps..
now Dog this may sound stupid! but isnt it a bad thing for your buds to finish faster? i mean would that affect ur total yield because the bud ripen off too fast and could have spent more time growing bigger? at least with the 24hr light seems it would be a little too fast. i can see the 1/4-1hr black light being ok.
or the 660nm with black light on in the dark time giving you bigger buds and yield, but not just a black light on its own.
i know i could adjust my 12/12 to make my bud grow faster with HID (cant rember if it more light or less?) but it would still yield less because flowering was too fast.
or the 660nm with black light on in the dark time giving you bigger buds and yield, but not just a black light on its own.
i know i could adjust my 12/12 to make my bud grow faster with HID (cant rember if it more light or less?) but it would still yield less because flowering was too fast.
Yes it's not a good thing to ripen too fast.. Let me give another example of what I'm talking about with 730nm night time speed.
Let's use LED 730nm as the example.
Now I don't know the exact time factor of 730nm LED. But I do know that it's the fastest spectrum for the plants internal clock. Since standard outdoor darkness (SOD) is a .8 with it's time factor I can make a real good guess at 730nm LED to at least be .7 or better with it's time factor.. Don't quote me on that but were going use that # for my examples.. It makes it easer..LOL
So if I use just 730nm LED at (my guesstimating) of a .7 time factor for let's say 12 hours (my normal dark time) my plants actually would think they just got 15 hours of darkness.. Not good.. And it wouldn't matter if I ran my normal flowering light for 12 hours. My plants would still think they were getting 15 hours of darkness.. Not good. This is why understanding the time factor of the spectrum you are playing around with is a MUST.. You sure wouldn't want this scenario I just talked about.. What ever spectrum the grower uses in the dark time, the grower needs to know how to calculate it so it comes up at 12/12..
Let's say you wanted to make 730nm LED with a .7 time factor match up to a 12/12 grow. It would go a little something like this. The objective is to make your plants think it's a 12/12 cycle... So you would only need 9 hours of darkness with 730nm LED on.. Of course that's assuming LED 730nm has a .7 time factor.. So you would run a schedule like this 15/9.. 15 hours on with your normal light and 9 hours of darkness w/730nm ....This method of growing is not efficient at all.... Just so you know..
The problem with this setup is you got 730nm on ONLY during your dark time and a whole lot of stretch will be going on.. And you will not like it, even if you make the plant think it a 12/12 cycle
I just wanted you to understand what's trying to be accomplished with the speed thing.. If your adding speed to your dark time you need to make sure you don't make it to fast.. You will go right past 12 hours of darkness and put the plants into late flowering/ripening mode, something like a 10/14 time schedule.. Is this making sense? This is why I say under a standard 12/12 type of grow... It's better to add speed during the day time.
When I run 730nm during the PAD dark time... I also use 660nm.. The proper cycling of the two is what gives it it's time factor.. The method uses light 24 hours a day and the plant think it's getting 12 hour of darkness. And yes photosynthesis is happening every hour of the day.. This my friend is most of the trick.. Soon my friends Soon...
Let's use LED 730nm as the example.
Now I don't know the exact time factor of 730nm LED. But I do know that it's the fastest spectrum for the plants internal clock. Since standard outdoor darkness (SOD) is a .8 with it's time factor I can make a real good guess at 730nm LED to at least be .7 or better with it's time factor.. Don't quote me on that but were going use that # for my examples.. It makes it easer..LOL
So if I use just 730nm LED at (my guesstimating) of a .7 time factor for let's say 12 hours (my normal dark time) my plants actually would think they just got 15 hours of darkness.. Not good.. And it wouldn't matter if I ran my normal flowering light for 12 hours. My plants would still think they were getting 15 hours of darkness.. Not good. This is why understanding the time factor of the spectrum you are playing around with is a MUST.. You sure wouldn't want this scenario I just talked about.. What ever spectrum the grower uses in the dark time, the grower needs to know how to calculate it so it comes up at 12/12..
Let's say you wanted to make 730nm LED with a .7 time factor match up to a 12/12 grow. It would go a little something like this. The objective is to make your plants think it's a 12/12 cycle... So you would only need 9 hours of darkness with 730nm LED on.. Of course that's assuming LED 730nm has a .7 time factor.. So you would run a schedule like this 15/9.. 15 hours on with your normal light and 9 hours of darkness w/730nm ....This method of growing is not efficient at all.... Just so you know..
The problem with this setup is you got 730nm on ONLY during your dark time and a whole lot of stretch will be going on.. And you will not like it, even if you make the plant think it a 12/12 cycle
I just wanted you to understand what's trying to be accomplished with the speed thing.. If your adding speed to your dark time you need to make sure you don't make it to fast.. You will go right past 12 hours of darkness and put the plants into late flowering/ripening mode, something like a 10/14 time schedule.. Is this making sense? This is why I say under a standard 12/12 type of grow... It's better to add speed during the day time.
When I run 730nm during the PAD dark time... I also use 660nm.. The proper cycling of the two is what gives it it's time factor.. The method uses light 24 hours a day and the plant think it's getting 12 hour of darkness. And yes photosynthesis is happening every hour of the day.. This my friend is most of the trick.. Soon my friends Soon...
ok i get what ur saying! makes sense now.
but let me ask you this? since your using the 660nm with the 730nm dose it balances out the dark period now? rather then just using 730nm by its self for the dark time witch would be too fast? now is the 730nm on the whole time or just parts of the dark time when the 660nm will be on the whole time? sorry if you already said this, that chronic is a bitch with this stuff
also what would happen if you just ran the 660nm only for the dark time with no 730nm and the full spec during the day? would that give you bigger buds with slower growing time?
Yes... But it must be cycled correctly and it has to be on a certain length of time based on the combinations time factor...
It has to be cycled properly.. You getting ahead of yourself here...LOL
Assuming it's exactly 660nm and not a china version that more then likely has not been burned in properly.. The example below is assuming you have the correct 660nm.
So let's say you have (the real) 660nm.. Remember it's all about time factors..
660nm has a time factor of 5.3 ..So running 660nm (only) for 12 hours would give your plants the equivalent of 2.26 hours of darkness and aprox 9.74 hours of light.. Not good, your plants would continue to veg.. How I came up with this # is..You take the 12 hours and divide it into 660's time factor of 5.3 and the number you come up with is the amount of darkness 660nm can give you. Kinda tricky but here is the math... 12h's devided by 5.3 = 2.26 hours of equvelent darkness....But you don't have to do Math.. The masters have already done all the math that is needed....LOL.... Also this way of getting (day light) and (darkness) from Photosynthetic Artificial Light only works with Photosynthetic Artificial Darkness (PAD) spectrums.... PAD darkness spectrums are 530nm and above.
So to get 12 hours of equivalent darkness using 660nm/730nm (only) as a PAD light.. You need to run them for a specific amount of time. The time you will need to run them is based on what the time factor of the combination is..
I use them with a pre determined amount of time, based on the combinations time factor.. Now coming up with the time factor of 660nm mixed with 730nm is not my game..
The 24 hour flowering method cycles 660nm and 730nm for a pre determined amount of time. The amount of time 660nm/730nm are cycled has already been figured out by the masters at Temporal Photonics. Not me
Using their timing schedules you can make the plants think it's 12/12 or 11/13 or 10/14, OR even veg 18/6 This will allow your plants to pretty much use all of the 24 hours for photosynthesis during any one of the above flowering/veg schedules.. Like I said It's a nice trick..
So that's the 660nm 730nm part... But there is more... Let's make sure you somewhat understand this before we move on.
i fully under stand.
Slowpuffer
Well-Known Member
Now you guys are on the right thought pattern. I hope a few of you get filthy rich doing it !! But wait a minute, we can't do that, you want to see all them poor con artists starving ?? I don't think anyone has really tryed to share information !! I think a few folks have tryed to perfect a light , and came close (like hgl & others) and naturally got caught up in the profit margins & lies, and deceptions. I personally believe that like most things, the right combination will be discovered by experimentation & and just pure shithouse luck, and after the initial invention, the price will pulment, and we'll all have one or more and we'll all live happy ever after. You all stay cool and never say never. I think leds may be the future !! A few of you pioneers will be rich and famous !! Now i'm gonna check my hotass old hid , before it burns my house down !! cya !!
csudh420
New Member
Cool thread and very interesting. When I ordered my lights from Cammie she had an idea I was going for this, and I am, am I dreaming or what!!!
I have a 318w panel from her and ordered 5 15w 660nm spotlights and was insistent they would be that, I believe they are. I also have some t5's added. I have tons of timers and will add 730nm light if needed.
I wonder what the timings would be?
I have a 318w panel from her and ordered 5 15w 660nm spotlights and was insistent they would be that, I believe they are. I also have some t5's added. I have tons of timers and will add 730nm light if needed.
I wonder what the timings would be?
The timing for your combo would be as follows..
If your shooting for a 12/12 type of schedule, witch I would assume you are and not a 11/13 or a ripening schedule of 10/14. The 12/12/24 hour flowering schedule goes like this.
To get a 12/12 type of flowering schedule with your lighting setup you would run your 318w and the T5's for 6 1/2 hours then you would run PAD lighting for 17 1/2 hours...
So lets explain your PAD lighting setup.. You have 5 15w 660nm spotlights. So all you would need to do is add a black light for the 730nm or 730nm LED's. Currently it's alot easer to get a black light at wallyworld..
Now comes the tricky part.. You need (2) 24h/half hour increment timers.. The ones that have the push/pull pins all the way around the wheel. PAD lighting cycles every half hour.. So you run 660nm for a half hour on and then you run the 730nm black light or 730nm LED's for a half hour. Each spectrum need to be on separately. You MUST make it a perfect 1 hour cycle.. Now this is important to synchronize these two (spectrum) timers to come on and go off without a (dark) gap in between. It's very important not to have a dark gap in between these two spectrums AND you don't want a dark gap in between when your LED 318/t5's go off also.. So no dark gaps at all in the 24 hour cycle.
So your PAD lighting will be cycling in 1/2 hour increments for 17 1/2 hours. I would make it so the 730nm spectrum is the last spectrum to come on in that cycle and the 660nm would be the first to come on, Exactly when your 6 1/2 hours of lighting goes out... You following me.
So your going to run a 24 hour schedule that goes like this.
6 1/2 hours of full spectrum light then 17 1/2 hours of PAD lighting.
The time factor of 660/730 being cycled every half hour is 1.4 So let's do the math. 17.5h's divided by 1.4 (PAD's time factor) = 12.5 hours of equivalent darkness AND 5 hours of day light (nice trick).. Now add the 5 hours of day light that the PAD lighting gives you to your 6 1/2 hours of your full spectrum lighting and your plants think they are being flowered using a 11.5/12.5 schedule..
The reason I had you go 17 1/2 hours of PAD lighting and get 12.5 hours worth of darkness is. You need to account far any delays in the PAD lighting such as inconsistencies in the (black light 730) and so forth. So your plants will actually think they are getting aprox 12.25 hours of (SID) standard indoor darkness.. This schedule will work great for you.. So it takes three timers. One for the full spectrum light and two for the PAD lighting..
Hope this makes sense.. Good luck with your grow..
If your shooting for a 12/12 type of schedule, witch I would assume you are and not a 11/13 or a ripening schedule of 10/14. The 12/12/24 hour flowering schedule goes like this.
To get a 12/12 type of flowering schedule with your lighting setup you would run your 318w and the T5's for 6 1/2 hours then you would run PAD lighting for 17 1/2 hours...
So lets explain your PAD lighting setup.. You have 5 15w 660nm spotlights. So all you would need to do is add a black light for the 730nm or 730nm LED's. Currently it's alot easer to get a black light at wallyworld..
Now comes the tricky part.. You need (2) 24h/half hour increment timers.. The ones that have the push/pull pins all the way around the wheel. PAD lighting cycles every half hour.. So you run 660nm for a half hour on and then you run the 730nm black light or 730nm LED's for a half hour. Each spectrum need to be on separately. You MUST make it a perfect 1 hour cycle.. Now this is important to synchronize these two (spectrum) timers to come on and go off without a (dark) gap in between. It's very important not to have a dark gap in between these two spectrums AND you don't want a dark gap in between when your LED 318/t5's go off also.. So no dark gaps at all in the 24 hour cycle.
So your PAD lighting will be cycling in 1/2 hour increments for 17 1/2 hours. I would make it so the 730nm spectrum is the last spectrum to come on in that cycle and the 660nm would be the first to come on, Exactly when your 6 1/2 hours of lighting goes out... You following me.
So your going to run a 24 hour schedule that goes like this.
6 1/2 hours of full spectrum light then 17 1/2 hours of PAD lighting.
The time factor of 660/730 being cycled every half hour is 1.4 So let's do the math. 17.5h's divided by 1.4 (PAD's time factor) = 12.5 hours of equivalent darkness AND 5 hours of day light (nice trick).. Now add the 5 hours of day light that the PAD lighting gives you to your 6 1/2 hours of your full spectrum lighting and your plants think they are being flowered using a 11.5/12.5 schedule..
The reason I had you go 17 1/2 hours of PAD lighting and get 12.5 hours worth of darkness is. You need to account far any delays in the PAD lighting such as inconsistencies in the (black light 730) and so forth. So your plants will actually think they are getting aprox 12.25 hours of (SID) standard indoor darkness.. This schedule will work great for you.. So it takes three timers. One for the full spectrum light and two for the PAD lighting..
Hope this makes sense.. Good luck with your grow..
