Emmie's Vegan Fertilizer, Pineapple Chunk 2020 Celebration: Experimental Soil Grow

[Black Thumbs]

my Water must be lower base EC than yours. To get to the 1.7EC recommended for late bloom I need to add 8.75g/gal. Also unless that’s 300W of actual draw, your light probably isn’t powerful enough to run full strength nutrients.

Yea it’s the tsl2000 by mars
My water is only .1EC.Have no idea why or how anything over 1EC burns and locks out even with 20% run off every water but the plants always look great with such low feeds and give me a decent return

 

[DrCannaCanadian]

my Water must be lower base EC than yours. To get to the 1.7EC recommended for late bloom I need to add 8.75g/gal. Also unless that’s 300W of actual draw, your light probably isn’t powerful enough to run full strength nutrients.

Hey @ChefDGreen , how's life?

You're in Oregon, so I'm assuming a 700 scale - and who is recommending the "1.7EC recommended for late bloom"? GLN?

 

[ChefDGreen]

life’s good! My NL is coming along incredibly well.
The bag of Megacrop says that on the back of it. 500ppm scale, so 850ppm.

 

[THC Onlyfans]

I believe each gram per gallon is 150ppm.

Btw emilya, nice looking plants!

 

[Black Thumbs]

I believe each gram per gallon is 150ppm.

Btw emilya, nice looking plants!

Yea sounds right 3gram around .8EC(450ppm)

 

[ChefDGreen]

Good conversation - but again, I have not read the MC theory yet.

I am definitely planning on mixing 3 gallons of MC and tracking the ppm - and unless I'm mistaken, a measurement like grams or ml gets you close, but it is the ppm that really counts when we apply the feed.

In my experience, ppm feeding has always produced better for me than g/ml. So I would have to agree with you on this.

 

[Old Salt]

I think we should stop using TDS(PPM) and only use EC. EC is a universal measurement, while TDS(PPM) can be measured on one of four different scales, depending on the region. These scales vary from EC in µS times 500 to 700, depending on which scale is used. When is the last time you saw a member with a problem specify which TDS scale they were using?

 

[ChefDGreen]

Never... never ever. I doubt the average beginner even knows about EC or scales. Definitely a great idea to point all new comers towards an EC pen instead of TDS if chelates are their desired avenue.

Sorry Em, don’t mean to blow up your thread with ppm and ec talk

 

[Zooie]

My feed is at 4g/gal in 5 gallon pots @Emilya I know has been pushing them hard. Your garden is beautiful, I'm so jelly.....lol

 

[bluter]

Never... never ever. I doubt the average beginner even knows about EC or scales. Definitely a great idea to point all new comers towards an EC pen instead of TDS if chelates are their desired avenue.

Sorry Em, don’t mean to blow up your thread with ppm and ec talk

lol they are the same pens. i agree ec is a superior measurement. how do you plan on hitting a consistent ec chef ? are you pre-mixing ? as there have been issues shown with precipitate not dissolving until being added to the full volume of water.

hitting a consistent ec with bottled nutes seems it would be more straight forward than dry

 

[DrCannaCanadian]

I think we should stop using TDS(PPM) and only use EC. EC is a universal measurement, while TDS(PPM) can be measured on one of four different scales, depending on the region. These scales vary from EC in µS times 500 to 700, depending on which scale is used. When is the last time you saw a member with a problem specify which TDS scale they were using?

Thanks @Old Salt - I think this a great idea.

lol they are the same pens. i agree ec is a superior measurement. how do you plan on hitting a consistent ec chef ? are you pre-mixing ? as there have been issues shown with precipitate not dissolving until being added to the full volume of water.

hitting a consistent ec with bottled nutes seems it would be more straight forward than dry

I'll be tracking mass/volume (g/litre) & EC when I flip to MC in a few weeks - so I'll read through the MC thread then.

I'm planning on premixing in 12 litre (3 Gallon) pails.

I expect a little deviation in the mass/volume & EC numbers; but if the numbers vary widely, then I will try to figure out why they differ.

 

[bluter]

Thanks @Old Salt - I think this a great idea.



I'll be tracking weight/volume (g/litre) & EC when I flip to MC in a few weeks - so I'll read through the MC thread then.

I'm planning on premixing in 12 litre (3 Gallon) pails.

I expect a little deviation in the weight/volume & EC numbers; but if the numbers vary widely, then I will try to figure out why they differ.

tag me so i can check how it goes.

i may bear a little responsibility for that mess over there ....

 

[DrCannaCanadian]

tag me so i can check how it goes.

i may bear a little responsibility for that mess over there ....

Will do @bluter , you've put together a great MC crew over there and I'd feel better going into flower with a knowledgeable shadow!

 

[Rad Man]

It is amazing stuff, this MegaCrop. No, there is no N in the supplements, and I am sure that it is not the N causing problems here... The N is well managed in the multiple forms it is being used to prevent damage from over application. From the Megacrop site:


I find it fascinating how GLN is using N as their visual marker, so you can judge whether the nutrient levels are at the right place, by sight! This is brilliant!

I have recently come to believe those on the MC thread who have been saying all along that the MC base has everything in it... and the supplements are provided for those "who think they need them", growers like me who feel better if they are throwing everything they can at their plants, but I am now convinced that the BE and SC are mixed way too hot to be supplements for this current mix of MC, especially if it is as they say and all of this extra stuff has been added in there.

It seems obvious from the various overnutrient reactions that I have seen so far in this grow and the others being posted on the various threads, that the supplements are a quick way to get in trouble if you are not completely sure what you are doing and willing to constantly adjust. If you use the supplements right now, you are on your own... and please do not use the "suggested" dosages from the website with blind faith. Check out this graphic from the MC website, it actually all is in there:

So we are seeing a lot of K deficiencies and Calcium toxicity with people using this product in various ways and I suspect that most having these problems are overapplying either the MC or the supplements or both. When we give too much base MC we are over supplying Magnesium and Calcium, and in this new mix, we are giving way too much Calcium, as soon as we are giving so much MC that we see the deeper green color.

Again, from the MegaCrop site, look how heavily concentrated the Calcium is in this product. Surely only people running RO would be the only ones even close to needing extra Ca.

A quick check of Mulders Chart shows us that too much Ca and Mg tend to lock out everything, except N.

But look what else happens when you give too much Ca and Mg together. This sets up a double antagonism against K availability, and coincidentally this happens to be the most common lockout we are seeing among the users of MC. The other very common and confusing presentation we are seeing is Ca toxicity in the upper canopy, caused directly by the overapplication of MC, and this can quickly cascade into multiple problems.

And now I have an undocumented bag of something new... partially ground up MC. Since it is now mostly powder with very few large balls, logic demands that the resulting powder is more dense than the original Version 2, and by weight you are now applying more dense product than before. That 6g/gallon level becomes totally arbitrary upon this examination, so I think all of us need to reexamine how much we are giving after finding the new stuff in your mailbox. Six grams of this new stuff might actually be the equivalent of 7 grams of the old formulation mixed with large balls taking up space. Back to basics I say to all Megacroppers... adjust for the green.

Em,
For what it's worth, I agree with your final conclusion. It's all about the GREEN!

Not having seen a calcium excess before, I looked around and stumbled on this link.

🥇 ▷ Lack or excess of calcium in your marijuana plant

Get the right level of calcium for your cannabis plants ⭐ Avoid excess or deficiency in your marijuana crop ⭐ Everything you need to know!

pevgrow.com

It states;
Once you’ve determined that you have excess calcium in your marijuana plants, it’s time for a gentle flush. When I say gentle, I mean a low dose of a balanced nutrient mix. When growers here the word “flush,” they think pouring liters of water through the medium to flush every nutrient out. This is inadvisable because you’re suddenly depleting the cannabis plant of all of its necessary nutrients to function.

Flushing with a low dosage of nutrients allows excess nutrients to be pushed out while leaving a smaller concentration. This method allows your plants to continue taking up critical nutrients for its growth.

Alternatively, you can flush your plant with a low dose of calmag, a combination of calcium and magnesium. By flushing with calmag, you decrease your chances of suddenly locking out potassium and magnesium. <end quote>

These folks recommend the gentle flush we talked about earlier.
The last sentence surprised me. How do you fix a calcium excess, by adding more calcium? I'm guessing this is just to keep the end ratio correct.

I've read that during the flowering phase, the plant's appetite for Nitrogen decreases markedly. Since you are well into your third week of flower, I'm curious if with a constant feed, you would not have picked up a darker green, as the plant's N consumption diminished.... Have other folks running MC, without supplements, witnessed an increase in darker green during this stage?

 

[Old Salt]

Have other folks running MC, without supplements, witnessed an increase in darker green during this stage?

No. The green hasn't darkened. I'm a week or two from harvest, so I'll keep an eye out for it.

 

[ChefDGreen]

lol they are the same pens. i agree ec is a superior measurement. how do you plan on hitting a consistent ec chef ? are you pre-mixing ? as there have been issues shown with precipitate not dissolving until being added to the full volume of water.

hitting a consistent ec with bottled nutes seems it would be more straight forward than dry

I started by checking the ppm of the recommended 6.5g/gal. Then I added 1g/gal til my ppm stick was reading in a range I’m happy with.

regarding bottles nutes; I’ve found that the nutrient lines I’ve used end up needing 2-4x the recommended dose to reach the recommended ppm. Which actually ends up being a huge problem when you’re first dialing in the dynagro... if you mix it all up and realize the ppm is way under, you can’t add the protekt again cause it will 100% precipitate.

 

[Emilya Green]

Em,
For what it's worth, I agree with your final conclusion. It's all about the GREEN!

Not having seen a calcium excess before, I looked around and stumbled on this link.

🥇 ▷ Lack or excess of calcium in your marijuana plant

Get the right level of calcium for your cannabis plants ⭐ Avoid excess or deficiency in your marijuana crop ⭐ Everything you need to know!

pevgrow.com

It states;
Once you’ve determined that you have excess calcium in your marijuana plants, it’s time for a gentle flush. When I say gentle, I mean a low dose of a balanced nutrient mix. When growers here the word “flush,” they think pouring liters of water through the medium to flush every nutrient out. This is inadvisable because you’re suddenly depleting the cannabis plant of all of its necessary nutrients to function.

Flushing with a low dosage of nutrients allows excess nutrients to be pushed out while leaving a smaller concentration. This method allows your plants to continue taking up critical nutrients for its growth.

Alternatively, you can flush your plant with a low dose of calmag, a combination of calcium and magnesium. By flushing with calmag, you decrease your chances of suddenly locking out potassium and magnesium. <end quote>

These folks recommend the gentle flush we talked about earlier.
The last sentence surprised me. How do you fix a calcium excess, by adding more calcium? I'm guessing this is just to keep the end ratio correct.

I've read that during the flowering phase, the plant's appetite for Nitrogen decreases markedly. Since you are well into your third week of flower, I'm curious if with a constant feed, you would not have picked up a darker green, as the plant's N consumption diminished.... Have other folks running MC, without supplements, witnessed an increase in darker green during this stage?

The key to this is in the following statement:
MEGA CROP uses 19:1 Nitrate to Ammonium, which is optimum amount for hydroponic and soil crops. Keeping the Ammonium Nitrogen source under 5% prevents damage from over-fertilizing.
Apparently at this rate, even when slightly overapplied, it is very hard to over fertilize the N before other bad things start happening first.

The key that I am finding to understanding this system is knowing that when applying at the proper rate, GLN is shooting for what they feel is the optimum NPK for cannabis, 10-7-18. We know that this might be a good average rate, but that there are times during the grow when more of each can be used to good effect. In early flower we would want slightly less N as a rule, and also increased rates of P and K, and this is when the supplements should become helpful. The whole key however seems to be sure that everything is in balance before adding extra P and K. With that in mind, your solution to curing the Ca overage would probably be more effective and faster than slowly dialing it back as I have done here... but in minor cases as we have going on here, either method is going to get us to the same happy place within a few watering cycles.

Regarding flushing a Ca toxicity with diluted calmag solution sort of makes sense I guess... and if you flushed with low dose MC you would be doing that... but it is one of those head scratchers that to get rid of an excess you flush with a deficit.

 

[DrCannaCanadian]

The key to this is in the following statement:
MEGA CROP uses 19:1 Nitrate to Ammonium, which is optimum amount for hydroponic and soil crops. Keeping the Ammonium Nitrogen source under 5% prevents damage from over-fertilizing.
Apparently at this rate, even when slightly overapplied, it is very hard to over fertilize the N before other bad things start happening first.

The key that I am finding to understanding this system is knowing that when applying at the proper rate, GLN is shooting for what they feel is the optimum NPK for cannabis, 10-7-18. We know that this might be a good average rate, but that there are times during the grow when more of each can be used to good effect. In early flower we would want slightly less N as a rule, and also increased rates of P and K, and this is when the supplements should become helpful. The whole key however seems to be sure that everything is in balance before adding extra P and K. With that in mind, your solution to curing the Ca overage would probably be more effective and faster than slowly dialing it back as I have done here... but in minor cases as we have going on here, either method is going to get us to the same happy place within a few watering cycles.

Regarding flushing a Ca toxicity with diluted calmag solution sort of makes sense I guess... and if you flushed with low dose MC you would be doing that... but it is one of those head scratchers that to get rid of an excess you flush with a deficit.

I'm really loving the theory!

 

[Emilya Green]

Full Bloom, Day 31
All continues to proceed along at the same pace we have been seeing, and with the MC at 5g/g the leaves are returning to a more healthy color overall while growth remains robust. There are still some tip burns way up high in the canopy telling me that the last few waterings still ended up with something too hot in the soil, but the very tip top growth is not showing burns, informing me that things are now on the right track.

All the leaves that have been partially damaged are still working well and in no danger of being pulled in by the plant.

I do agree now that once having determined that I had a nute overload, a flush may have gotten us to the finish without as much damage to the leaves, but these are working plants, and they now have scars to prove it. With an exception of a slight pause when the lockout was at its worse, keeping the nutes coming in at slightly less than the upper level has kept the buds rapidly developing.

Several of the buds are starting to get that conical look to them that is typical of week 5, and soon we will be doing a few backbuilding cuts around the tent to change the shape of the final buds. This is Pineapple Chunk though, so the buds will already tend to be more chunky than tapered... and I plan on helping that out where I can.

The buds are beginning to pack on trichomes and give us a clue as to what is coming. Only 2 or 3 of the kolas are going to end up achieving the "footlong bud" category, but there are going to be lots of strong chunky secondary buds way down at least 2' into the canopy.

This cycle I added an extra day to the watering cycle, just to see again how far we are pushing the plants by watering every other day. Today they got their normal 1 gallon apiece and with significantly less runoff than we have been seeing... hardly any, and I have just confirmed that they are indeed using more water than ever before. This extra day also takes care of the odd number of days in the month, and we will resume watering on the even numbered days of the month all through February.

 

[Grand Daddy Black]

Full Bloom, Day 31
All continues to proceed along at the same pace we have been seeing, and with the MC at 5g/g the leaves are returning to a more healthy color overall while growth remains robust. There are still some tip burns way up high in the canopy telling me that the last few waterings still ended up with something too hot in the soil, but the very tip top growth is not showing burns, informing me that things are now on the right track.

All the leaves that have been partially damaged are still working well and in no danger of being pulled in by the plant.

I do agree now that once having determined that I had a nute overload, a flush may have gotten us to the finish without as much damage to the leaves, but these are working plants, and they now have scars to prove it. With an exception of a slight pause when the lockout was at its worse, keeping the nutes coming in at slightly less than the upper level has kept the buds rapidly developing.

Several of the buds are starting to get that conical look to them that is typical of week 5, and soon we will be doing a few backbuilding cuts around the tent to change the shape of the final buds. This is Pineapple Chunk though, so the buds will already tend to be more chunky than tapered... and I plan on helping that out where I can.

The buds are beginning to pack on trichomes and give us a clue as to what is coming. Only 2 or 3 of the kolas are going to end up achieving the "footlong bud" category, but there are going to be lots of strong chunky secondary buds way down at least 2' into the canopy.

This cycle I added an extra day to the watering cycle, just to see again how far we are pushing the plants by watering every other day. Today they got their normal 1 gallon apiece and with significantly less runoff than we have been seeing... hardly any, and I have just confirmed that they are indeed using more water than ever before. This extra day also takes care of the odd number of days in the month, and we will resume watering on the even numbered days of the month all through February.

@Emilya You did a great job getting them back to where you wanted them. Lesson learned!