Emmie's Vegan Fertilizer, Pineapple Chunk 2020 Celebration: Experimental Soil Grow

[DrCannaCanadian]

Full Bloom, Day 24
Here we go again. The plants have definitely told me several things after that last watering. Today is watering day and I have made some adjustments.

First the overall color is not right.

What I am seeing is not MegaCrop green... it is forest green... it is too dark. So my assumption that my plants were the biggest and baddest in the world and were of course needing 6g/g was an error and for this watering I have dropped back down to 5.5g.

With all the powerful stuff that is already in the overmaxed out MC, I was giving even more with the increase in BE. This time we see similar symptoms as last time when the K got locked out by giving BE too early, but with a significant difference. Potassium is funny the way it displays on the plant... a deficiency can look a lot like an excess. Very similar burned leaf margins and elongated necrosis of the tips can display with each, but when it is a toxicity situation, you also get actual very small tip burns all over the plant in places where the K problem is not being displayed.

This is what I think is happening with these plants. I think that despite this being a time when I desire to up the nutes a bit for the developing buds and thinking that I had good cause to use the BE, I had been already "upping the nutes" by giving too much MC. Adding the BE at this point at the "full" dosage was too much, note the upward curls.

This time, I did not give BE at all. I dropped MC back from the supposed max dosage (I know people give more than 6g/g) and assuming the Sweet Candy is totally beneficial, I maxed it out at 2g/g. (imagine a mad scientist laugh)

We shall see. This Megacrop stuff is very powerful. A couple of more days should tell us where we are at, and here at Emmie's gardens, we are documenting it fully... warts and all.

Have a wonderful day everyone!

@Emilya is always paying attention to her plants! That forest green and slight tip burn can creep in pretty stealthily!

Did the little bit of tip burn start at the top or the bottom of the plant?

For a plant that size, I would have missed it - great job Em!

 

[Emilya Green]

started at the bottom and middle of the plant...

 

[Emilya Green]

Full Bloom, Day 26
Change is slow in the plant world and the effects of too much MC did not completely alleviate simply by reducing one half gram on the previous watering. Some of the symptoms, mostly those I am associating with potassium and showing at the bottom of the plant, did not get any worse. I did not give any Bud Explosion on this watering.

Some of the symptoms at the top of the plant have gotten worse, and now a little bit of tip burn can be seen on practically every leaf in the tent. The deep green has fallen back a little bit, but the overall color, in my opinion, is still too dark.

Thinking on this watering is that we are still adjusting the base level of MC to find the optimum dosage for these particular plants in 5 gallon containers and under this light, I have dropped down again on this watering to a new level of 5g/g and we will carefully watch for MegaCrop green to return to this tent.

The reactions in the leaves at the top of the plant are puzzling, it could be potassium or it could be indicating problems with the non-mobile nutrients with the random spots and suddenly canoed leaves that were handling the light just fine before now. The tip burns all over the plant, still make me believe that I have an excess of something in here, so this time I put away the maniacal mad scientist laughter and also did not give any Sweet Candy this time either.

This time, short of giving plain water, I have cut back as much as I dare, despite all my constant inclinations to give them everything they can handle, and then some. I am reminded again as to just how powerful this MC mix is, and that I am in just 5 gallon containers... so maybe I should not expect 6g/g performance.

Still, despite all the above complaints, things are looking GREAT at the bud level! Trichomes are building as are the buds, and our private stash kola.

Learning as we go...
Emmie

 

[StoneOtter]

Learning as we go.

It's what we do. And they still look fabulous!

 

[Hydroholic]

Full Bloom, Day 26
Change is slow in the plant world and the effects of too much MC did not completely alleviate simply by reducing one half gram on the previous watering. Some of the symptoms, mostly those I am associating with potassium and showing at the bottom of the plant, did not get any worse. I did not give any Bud Explosion on this watering.

Some of the symptoms at the top of the plant have gotten worse, and now a little bit of tip burn can be seen on practically every leaf in the tent. The deep green has fallen back a little bit, but the overall color, in my opinion, is still too dark.

Thinking on this watering is that we are still adjusting the base level of MC to find the optimum dosage for these particular plants in 5 gallon containers and under this light, I have dropped down again on this watering to a new level of 5g/g and we will carefully watch for MegaCrop green to return to this tent.

The reactions in the leaves at the top of the plant are puzzling, it could be potassium or it could be indicating problems with the non-mobile nutrients with the random spots and suddenly canoed leaves that were handling the light just fine before now. The tip burns all over the plant, still make me believe that I have an excess of something in here, so this time I put away the maniacal mad scientist laughter and also did not give any Sweet Candy this time either.

This time, short of giving plain water, I have cut back as much as I dare, despite all my constant inclinations to give them everything they can handle, and then some. I am reminded again as to just how powerful this MC mix is, and that I am in just 5 gallon containers... so maybe I should not expect 6g/g performance.

Still, despite all the above complaints, things are looking GREAT at the bud level! Trichomes are building as are the buds, and our private stash kola.

Learning as we go...
Emmie

When I ran my plants over on the MC I got the deep green leaves followed by a potassium deficiency. I flushed then dropped back 1/2 a gram. The one plant I did not flush burned bad. It started in the mid and upper leaves and went crispy.

 

[Deketx]

When I ran my plants over on the MC I got the deep green leaves followed by a potassium deficiency. I flushed then dropped back 1/2 a gram. The one plant I did not flush burned bad. It started in the mid and upper leaves and went crispy.

I just looked at my plants and my Mazar has shown more of this just in the last day. I'm seeing more mid plant. I was just thinking straight water tomorrow no MC then I read your post and confirms that I should go strait water.

 

[DrCannaCanadian]

Hey @Emilya.

Those budlets look very healthy!

Just curious, do you ever just spray the plants with water or foliar with 25% strength nutes?

I was thinking about trying more foliar feeding this grow - right until they are 2 weeks into flower.

 

[Emilya Green]

Hey @Emilya.

Those budlets look very healthy!

Just curious, do you ever just spray the plants with water or foliar with 25% strength nutes?

I was thinking about trying more foliar feeding this grow - right until they are 2 weeks into flower.

I have not on this run, although I do spray lactobacillus serum on my plants regularly and have been known to spray my compost teas on the plants in my organic grows.
I look at foliar feeding as just another pathway we can use to get nutrients into the plant, and I can't ignore the work Doc has done in examining the Brix level of the leaves increasing with foliar feeding.
For me, foliar feeding is in the same toolkit as CO2.... while I know both are beneficial if done correctly, I just don't want to work that hard.

 

[Rad Man]

@Emilya
Thank you for sharing this grow journal. I'm learning so much.
Your pictures should be part of a textbook of how a N excess locks out K, and how it presents itself. Sorry it happened for you, but it is a great "show & tell" for us newbies.
The Mega Crop thread seemed to target .5 gram/gal increments to make adjustments. However, when that was discussed, it all seemed to be in relation to increasing the strength of the solution. So when you hit a N excess like this, do you think it's acceptable to the plant to ween it off the N excess faster, ie., a feed at 3 gm/gal or less, to get the color to your liking quicker?
I lack the experience to know which is lesser of the two evils. 1) Allowing the K lockout to continue during a gradual declination of N, or 2) stabbing the brakes by cutting the feed strength quickly, to allow K back into the plant.

Ps. I was getting all set up to do a LOS grow. This MC/Vlux thread has given me a serious case of whiplash!

 

[Emilya Green]

@Emilya
Thank you for sharing this grow journal. I'm learning so much.
Your pictures should be part of a textbook of how a N excess locks out K, and how it presents itself. Sorry it happened for you, but it is a great "show & tell" for us newbies.
The Mega Crop thread seemed to target .5 gram/gal increments to make adjustments. However, when that was discussed, it all seemed to be in relation to increasing the strength of the solution. So when you hit a N excess like this, do you think it's acceptable to the plant to ween it off the N excess faster, ie., a feed at 3 gm/gal or less, to get the color to your liking quicker?
I lack the experience to know which is lesser of the two evils. 1) Allowing the K lockout to continue during a gradual declination of N, or 2) stabbing the brakes by cutting the feed strength quickly, to allow K back into the plant.

Ps. I was getting all set up to do a LOS grow. This MC/Vlux thread has given me a serious case of whiplash!

Hiya Rad, and welcome to the forum! Sorry about the whiplash... apparently you are not the only one. I myself am a little surprised at what I have done here, and planning to keep doing for a while.
It sounds like you have been reading my work for a while, and thank you for that and now your comments here. You are right in that the MC thread seems to direct us to water with .5g increases, every other watering, and before you know it we expectantly are sitting at 6g/g. Not knowing any better, I too followed this advice, contrary to the advice seen on the website to go for the proper MC green, and I got my grow in trouble because of it.
The problem being new to this product is that this all snuck up on me and finding myself in the midst of a problem, it was difficult to make the decision as to how much to ricochet back in the other direction, trying to correct a problem that I only believe that I have correctly diagnosed, but was not completely sure.

Knowing what I know now, I think I would consider going down to a half dosage at least once to see if I could correct the problem faster and one member is posting that he did a flush at this point to clear out the excess while his friend didn't, and he saw his method as superior. Trying to avoid the ricochet effect, I chose to gradually reduce down to a new base rate, but what you propose is not out of the question either, and I guarantee you that next time I am going to be VERY reluctant to get the MC up to the 6g level so as to avoid all of this in the future.
Since we are fairly certain at this point that the excess MC is causing K lockouts in bloom, I don't see harm in doing as you propose if you find yourself in this situation, or even flushing to clear it all out and start anew with a more appropriate dosage.
I am also dismayed to read that new compilations of BE and SC are coming out, adjusting these to be more compatable with the new MC, therefore informing me that my versions are unadjusted... probably making them much too strong to use as I have been with the current MC. This explains a lot, and I will be adjusting accordingly.

 

[Deketx]

I looked back at my log book and the issues didn't start showing until I was at 5grm. They looked incredible before that.

 

[Emilya Green]

Full Bloom, Day 28... the halfway point

The overall color is much better today and right on cue, the damaged leaves are again looking strong and all appearances are that this lockout is over.

I am surmising at this point that the new mostly ground up MC is a little more powerful per weight than before it was ground up, so 5g goes a lot further and we have to be very careful when using it to stay within the guidelines that GLN has set out for us, quite clearly, in their website instructions on finding the right dosage to give. Go for the green... the MegaCrop green.



I thought I had seen a stall in overall bud development over the last few days too, but over the last 24-48 hours things seems to have gotten right back on track and the buds are noticeably bigger than they were the last time I took pictures. There was a listlessness in the tent before today that I didn't like, an overall sick and tired feeling. That is gone today. Everyone is standing up straight and tall, with their leaves pointing to the light.

The area of most concern to me is up in the upper canopy, with these few leaves that look like they have gone to stage 2 potassium deficiency. It is just on one plant that this is happening, and in that little hotspot of light intensity that this plant on a box is sitting in, those leaves have gotten a little light sensitive and are definitely tacoing. I have dimmed the lights just a bit on that side and will keep watching this as we continue to try to stabilize things at 5g/g.

Lastly, let me show you areas where before we saw listless damaged leaves, and today we see strong leaves, working their way past the previous difficulties, and at much closer to the right color.

 

[Rad Man]

The girls are working on a much better color! I like that the bottom is lightening up, and I assume the mid and uppers will follow soon. So glad for you that they are bouncing back nicely.

Your situation has my mind spinning tho. You were feeding at 5.5g/gal, with the supplements. Now you have eliminated the supplements, and dialed back to 5g/gal.

Was there any N contribution in the supplements that we should credit?

With the revelation that they are in the middle of revising some of the supplements, they must know something is a little "off". I question the value of establishing a baseline with these, as the next re-supply will be a different mix. The fun part will be watching, to see if you decide to jump back on the supplement bus! I'm such a chicken, I don't know if I could risk the lot to such an experiment knowing I couldn't carry the data forward. But as they say, "No risk it, no biscuit!"

If the supplements are all N free, then I am also taken aback, that a 0.5g/gal delta had such an impact. I'm going to have to buy a much better scale!

 

[Emilya Green]

The girls are working on a much better color! I like that the bottom is lightening up, and I assume the mid and uppers will follow soon. So glad for you that they are bouncing back nicely.

Your situation has my mind spinning tho. You were feeding at 5.5g/gal, with the supplements. Now you have eliminated the supplements, and dialed back to 5g/gal.

Was there any N contribution in the supplements that we should credit?

With the revelation that they are in the middle of revising some of the supplements, they must know something is a little "off". I question the value of establishing a baseline with these, as the next re-supply will be a different mix. The fun part will be watching, to see if you decide to jump back on the supplement bus! I'm such a chicken, I don't know if I could risk the lot to such an experiment knowing I couldn't carry the data forward. But as they say, "No risk it, no biscuit!"

If the supplements are all N free, then I am also taken aback, that a 0.5g/gal delta had such an impact. I'm going to have to buy a much better scale!

It is amazing stuff, this MegaCrop. No, there is no N in the supplements, and I am sure that it is not the N causing problems here... The N is well managed in the multiple forms it is being used to prevent damage from over application. From the Megacrop site:

MEGA CROP uses 19:1 Nitrate to Ammonium, which is optimum amount for hydroponic and soil crops. Keeping the Ammonium Nitrogen source under 5% prevents damage from over-fertilizing. Nitrogen helps plants grow quickly, while also increasing the production of seed and fruit, and bettering the quality of leaf and forage crops. Nitrogen is also a component of chlorophyll, the substance that gives plants their green color, and also aids in photosynthesis.

I find it fascinating how GLN is using N as their visual marker, so you can judge whether the nutrient levels are at the right place, by sight! This is brilliant!

I have recently come to believe those on the MC thread who have been saying all along that the MC base has everything in it... and the supplements are provided for those "who think they need them", growers like me who feel better if they are throwing everything they can at their plants, but I am now convinced that the BE and SC are mixed way too hot to be supplements for this current mix of MC, especially if it is as they say and all of this extra stuff has been added in there.

It seems obvious from the various overnutrient reactions that I have seen so far in this grow and the others being posted on the various threads, that the supplements are a quick way to get in trouble if you are not completely sure what you are doing and willing to constantly adjust. If you use the supplements right now, you are on your own... and please do not use the "suggested" dosages from the website with blind faith. Check out this graphic from the MC website, it actually all is in there:

So we are seeing a lot of K deficiencies and Calcium toxicity with people using this product in various ways and I suspect that most having these problems are overapplying either the MC or the supplements or both. When we give too much base MC we are over supplying Magnesium and Calcium, and in this new mix, we are giving way too much Calcium, as soon as we are giving so much MC that we see the deeper green color.

Again, from the MegaCrop site, look how heavily concentrated the Calcium is in this product. Surely only people running RO would be the only ones even close to needing extra Ca.

A quick check of Mulders Chart shows us that too much Ca and Mg tend to lock out everything, except N.

But look what else happens when you give too much Ca and Mg together. This sets up a double antagonism against K availability, and coincidentally this happens to be the most common lockout we are seeing among the users of MC. The other very common and confusing presentation we are seeing is Ca toxicity in the upper canopy, caused directly by the overapplication of MC, and this can quickly cascade into multiple problems.

And now I have an undocumented bag of something new... partially ground up MC. Since it is now mostly powder with very few large balls, logic demands that the resulting powder is more dense than the original Version 2, and by weight you are now applying more dense product than before. That 6g/gallon level becomes totally arbitrary upon this examination, so I think all of us need to reexamine how much we are giving after finding the new stuff in your mailbox. Six grams of this new stuff might actually be the equivalent of 7 grams of the old formulation mixed with large balls taking up space. Back to basics I say to all Megacroppers... adjust for the green.

 

[DrCannaCanadian]

Full Bloom, Day 28... the halfway point

The overall color is much better today and right on cue, the damaged leaves are again looking strong and all appearances are that this lockout is over.

I am surmising at this point that the new mostly ground up MC is a little more powerful per weight than before it was ground up, so 5g goes a lot further and we have to be very careful when using it to stay within the guidelines that GLN has set out for us, quite clearly, in their website instructions on finding the right dosage to give. Go for the green... the MegaCrop green.



I thought I had seen a stall in overall bud development over the last few days too, but over the last 24-48 hours things seems to have gotten right back on track and the buds are noticeably bigger than they were the last time I took pictures. There was a listlessness in the tent before today that I didn't like, an overall sick and tired feeling. That is gone today. Everyone is standing up straight and tall, with their leaves pointing to the light.

The area of most concern to me is up in the upper canopy, with these few leaves that look like they have gone to stage 2 potassium deficiency. It is just on one plant that this is happening, and in that little hotspot of light intensity that this plant on a box is sitting in, those leaves have gotten a little light sensitive and are definitely tacoing. I have dimmed the lights just a bit on that side and will keep watching this as we continue to try to stabilize things at 5g/g.

Lastly, let me show you areas where before we saw listless damaged leaves, and today we see strong leaves, working their way past the previous difficulties, and at much closer to the right color.

Alright! Half way! Let's put the frosting on the cake!

It is amazing stuff, this MegaCrop. No, there is no N in the supplements, and I am sure that it is not the N causing problems here... The N is well managed in the multiple forms it is being used to prevent damage from over application. From the Megacrop site:


I find it fascinating how GLN is using N as their visual marker, so you can judge whether the nutrient levels are at the right place, by sight! This is brilliant!

I have recently come to believe those on the MC thread who have been saying all along that the MC base has everything in it... and the supplements are provided for those "who think they need them", growers like me who feel better if they are throwing everything they can at their plants, but I am now convinced that the BE and SC are mixed way too hot to be supplements for this current mix of MC, especially if it is as they say and all of this extra stuff has been added in there.

It seems obvious from the various overnutrient reactions that I have seen so far in this grow and the others being posted on the various threads, that the supplements are a quick way to get in trouble if you are not completely sure what you are doing and willing to constantly adjust. If you use the supplements right now, you are on your own... and please do not use the "suggested" dosages from the website with blind faith. Check out this graphic from the MC website, it actually all is in there:

So we are seeing a lot of K deficiencies and Calcium toxicity with people using this product in various ways and I suspect that most having these problems are overapplying either the MC or the supplements or both. When we give too much base MC we are over supplying Magnesium and Calcium, and in this new mix, we are giving way too much Calcium, as soon as we are giving so much MC that we see the deeper green color.

Again, from the MegaCrop site, look how heavily concentrated the Calcium is in this product. Surely only people running RO would be the only ones even close to needing extra Ca.

A quick check of Mulders Chart shows us that too much Ca and Mg tend to lock out everything, except N.

But look what else happens when you give too much Ca and Mg together. This sets up a double antagonism against K availability, and coincidentally this happens to be the most common lockout we are seeing among the users of MC. The other very common and confusing presentation we are seeing is Ca toxicity in the upper canopy, caused directly by the overapplication of MC, and this can quickly cascade into multiple problems.

And now I have an undocumented bag of something new... partially ground up MC. Since it is now mostly powder with very few large balls, logic demands that the resulting powder is more dense than the original Version 2, and by weight you are now applying more dense product than before. That 6g/gallon level becomes totally arbitrary upon this examination, so I think all of us need to reexamine how much we are giving after finding the new stuff in your mailbox. Six grams of this new stuff might actually be the equivalent of 7 grams of the old formulation mixed with large balls taking up space. Back to basics I say to all Megacroppers... adjust for the green.

I haven't been over to the MegaCrop thread in a while - but K deficiency and Ca toxicity?

I would have expected K toxicity and Ca & Mg deficiency.

I'm not trying to be confrontational - and I'll read your last post again later - maybe I missed something.

I'm about 4 weeks away from starting MC, so I'm in no huge hurry to digest the MC theory yet.

But yep, the N as a visual clue - that is a great idea for sure.

PS - your garden is looking great, and your writing is still top notch!

 

[Black Thumbs]

Great to see that you caught the overdose before it went to far
I’ll be using mega crop this year but I’ll be going by EC feed instead of grams.The recommended gram dosage would have the EC a lot higher than I can ever get away with without locking out

 

[ChefDGreen]

Great to see that you caught the overdose before it went to far
I’ll be using mega crop this year but I’ll be going by EC feed instead of grams.The recommended gram dosage would have the EC a lot higher than I can ever get away with without locking out

That’s odd, because I’ve found the opposite to be true

 

[Black Thumbs]

That’s odd, because I’ve found the opposite to be true

My brother tested 3grams and it was .8EC
With my Grow’s everytime I feed over .8-1EC even in flower I run into lockouts using other Nutes if I feed every water.i use pro mix and only run around 300W of LED

 

[ChefDGreen]

my Water must be lower base EC than yours. To get to the 1.7EC recommended for late bloom I need to add 8.75g/gal. Also unless that’s 300W of actual draw, your light probably isn’t powerful enough to run full strength nutrients.

 

[DrCannaCanadian]

Great to see that you caught the overdose before it went to far
I’ll be using mega crop this year but I’ll be going by EC feed instead of grams.The recommended gram dosage would have the EC a lot higher than I can ever get away with without locking out

That’s odd, because I’ve found the opposite to be true

Good conversation - but again, I have not read the MC theory yet.

I am definitely planning on mixing 3 gallons of MC and tracking the ppm - and unless I'm mistaken, a measurement like grams or ml gets you close, but it is the ppm that really counts when we apply the feed.