Emmie's Berry D'licious 2019 True Living Organic: No AACT, SCROG, COB, SuperSoil Production Grow & Seed Run

Thank you for that correction Shed... I think I might be able to state that correctly next time since you have had to correct me twice now. But yeah, the water only at the end, or even the flush at the 2 week point from the end, does not affect the taste of the final product at the end, as is commonly believed. A proper cure takes care of any residual taste that might be there from the chemicals.
 
ok, I am going to take this point by point because there are a few misconceptions that I want to clear up and you have asked so many good questions that I dont want to miss anything.
First I want to mention that all of the people you are going to ask these questions of are likely to give you different answers. None of us grow using the others style or methods. Each of our techniques have been honed by years of practice, and trying to mix and match between us is likely to be very confusing. I will give you my answers, but keep in mind that other responses may turn out to be different, and we will all be right, in respect to our way of doing things.

I feel a little strange adding additional coco to the strong designer organic soil. The designers already included some of that in there to help with oxygen retention, and adding more just seems like second guessing the folks with degrees, so I don't do that. I do add perlite, since our weeds do prefer a slightly lighter soil and over a 4 month grow a soil will tend to compact if not broken up with an abundant amount of perlite or pumice. 20-25% is pretty normal. This will not change your watering frequency and actually it will give the microlife (if you have any) places to hide.

Flushes... there is more confusion about this right now in the online world than ever before. You do not yet understand based on your description. That scientific article only said that nutes do not show up in the final buds, but it never said not to flush... it said that flushing at the end to remove the taste of nutes in the buds, was useless. I have written extensively about this, and because of built up salts and debris in the soil near the end of the grow, I insist that a final flush, right at the start of the final bud swell two weeks until the end, is necessary for 100% water/nutrient uptake into the plant during this most critical time. If you don't flush, the salts and debris in the soil will restrict your uptake to some degree... and to any degree means that your final yield will be less than what it could have been.
Now, what is a flush... did you flush? No, you really did not. A proper flush that actually cleanses the soil requires 3x the container size in water moving through that soil. You did 1x, not nearly enough.

So then someone told you to go down the rabbit hole of testing runoff PPM out of soil... and you got concerned. Don't waste your time testing runoff in soil... it really tells you very little. You were not measuring salt only... you were measuring anything water soluble that had broken down, moss that had broken down, minerals that were now freed up, carbon, salt... runoff PPM of soil is quite impressive, and means nothing.

Now, the water. Unless you are running an organic grow, or a hydro grow where you are tracking PPM, tap water complete with its chlorine is perfectly fine to feed a soil grow.. and actually the minerals in tap water can be beneficial to the plants, and even stave off the dreaded and very common magnesium deficiency that shows up so often when people use RO water. So all that using tap water first and then distilled water... totally unnecessary. You are overthinking this. Actually during a flush, since you are washing all of the nutes out of the soil, you don't even need to adjust the pH... there is nothing there but water, and the plant doesn't care what the pH is as long as it is within reasonable limits.... the ONLY reason we adjust pH is to activate chelated nutes in a synthetic grow.

And then, after your partial flush, you fed back nutes like a coco grower would do and this confuses me. In your soil grow, are you feeding every time you water, or are you doing feed/water/feed/water like you should? If this is the case, your flush should have just taken the place of one of your plain water waterings.

So, I call a flushed soil a clean soil, not a recharged one. To recharge soil I add back in raw minerals and cook them in over a couple of months. Flushing should be done every time the salts build up, and in a FF grow with FF nutes going in at full strength, you should flush 3 or 4 times during the grow... but that very most important time is right before bud swell at the end. A flush is also not going to wash out beneficial fungi... they sort of attach themselves to the roots and you are not going to dislodge them. Beneficial bacteria will be flushed away, but there will be more to replace them, especially if you are using FF Big Bloom, which brings a new load of them every time you water with nutes.

I have grown a couple of plants that had chemdog in their bloodlines, ran that during most of 2017 with Santero's stuff. I never have grown out a pure chemdog though, that would be fun.

Lastly, all respect to @InTheShed, but I will advise against trying to run FFOF with its strong upward drift, without carefully adjusting your pH to 6.3 every time... not 6.5, and not just going willie nillie and letting the numbers fall where they may without adjusting pH. Let me please suggest that you only try this bold experiment on a side by side test, on a plant that it wont kill you to lose... because that is what I predict will happen. Shed has some unexplained voodoo going on there in that shack, and I know that if I tried to replicate it, something untoward would happen to me... a toe would fall off or something. It is scary stuff... be sure to have backup.

Wow!

Let me read this through slowly and respond point-by-point where appropriate ... this is shaping up to be an awesome chat!
 
ok, I am going to take this point by point because there are a few misconceptions that I want to clear up and you have asked so many good questions that I dont want to miss anything.
First I want to mention that all of the people you are going to ask these questions of are likely to give you different answers. None of us grow using the others style or methods. Each of our techniques have been honed by years of practice, and trying to mix and match between us is likely to be very confusing. I will give you my answers, but keep in mind that other responses may turn out to be different, and we will all be right, in respect to our way of doing things.

Agreed!

I read through so many journals, and the variety of growing methods are incredible. As we open discussion on differences in growing and we keep an open mind, we typically walk away a lot smarter.

That is the beauty of a mature, respectful and diverse adult-based site such as this.
 
I feel a little strange adding additional coco to the strong designer organic soil. The designers already included some of that in there to help with oxygen retention, and adding more just seems like second guessing the folks with degrees, so I don't do that. I do add perlite, since our weeds do prefer a slightly lighter soil and over a 4 month grow a soil will tend to compact if not broken up with an abundant amount of perlite or pumice. 20-25% is pretty normal. This will not change your watering frequency and actually it will give the microlife (if you have any) places to hide.

Agreed!

This has come up a few times for me now, and I keep second guessing myself. At first, I thought I would improve the FF Ocean Forest soil by cutting it with FF Happy Frog, then I thought I would cut it with coco, then I thought I would cut it with pro-mix.

At this point, I am going to settle on stabilizing my FFOF soil by adding about 25% pre-drained perlite so that there is better drainage which is healthy after a few months of growing. The perlite will also give the microlife (if you have any) places to hide ... (this is something I just learned).

So, I will leave the soil uncut except for the perlite.

The only deliberate modifications I will perform on the FFOF soil are:

1) to add Great White Mycorrhizae (GWM) during every transplant.
2) to add Advanced Nutrients Root Mass Expanders (Voodoo Juice, Piranha, Tarantuala, CarboLoad) and a bit of GWM for the first two weeks of veg, and the first two weeks of flower. This will promote healthy roots and healthy microlife which we desire in our organic soil.
3) to add FF Gringo Rasta synthetic nutrients which I have already purchased and I am locked into.

*** Ultimately, I believe I can stop giving synthetic nutes and just provide probiotic supplements like ReCharge or Bokashi Pro-Gro ... this is effectively getting closer to a pure organic grow.
 
Flushes... there is more confusion about this right now in the online world than ever before. You do not yet understand based on your description. That scientific article only said that nutes do not show up in the final buds, but it never said not to flush... it said that flushing at the end to remove the taste of nutes in the buds, was useless. I have written extensively about this, and because of built up salts and debris in the soil near the end of the grow, I insist that a final flush, right at the start of the final bud swell two weeks until the end, is necessary for 100% water/nutrient uptake into the plant during this most critical time. If you don't flush, the salts and debris in the soil will restrict your uptake to some degree... and to any degree means that your final yield will be less than what it could have been.

Now, what is a flush... did you flush? No, you really did not. A proper flush that actually cleanses the soil requires 3x the container size in water moving through that soil. You did 1x, not nearly enough.

Thank you for that correction Shed... I think I might be able to state that correctly next time since you have had to correct me twice now. But yeah, the water only at the end, or even the flush at the 2 week point from the end, does not affect the taste of the final product at the end, as is commonly believed. A proper cure takes care of any residual taste that might be there from the chemicals.

Here is the conclusion from that study:

FLUSHING NUTRIENTS FROM GROWTH MEDIA

The practice of flushing is a current common industry practice but there is no
evidence in published literature of its effectiveness in reducing nutrient concentrations within
the bud or even whether or not this is a desirable result. After testing the nutrient
concentrations from each treatment from three separate experiments, there were no
significant differences in nutrient levels between any treatments within each experiment. This
result showed that the intended purpose of flushing to reduce nutrient concentrations within
the bud has no effect. These data show that for the last two weeks of the flower cycle for
cannabis, it was possible to use no fertilizer water for irrigation with no significant impact on
yield while saving input costs on fertilizer.


So, ...

Flushing soil will NOT reduce nutrient concentrations in the bud.

Flushing soil at the start of the final bud swell, two weeks before harvest, is necessary for 100% water/nutrient uptake into the plant during this most critical time.

Proper curing will reduce nutrient concentrations in the bud and improve the smoothness and taste of the buds.

Therefore, since I am a soil grower, I choose to ...

1) Recharge the soil using smaller flushes (described in my previous post) followed by full nutrient feeds if the plant is unhealthy.

2) Perform a full final flush (water-only at 3 times the pot size) two weeks before harvest to eliminate unwanted salts and debris.

3) Use best practices to slow-cure the buds to maximize THC, taste & smoothness.


*** Effectively then, flushing is all about healthy benefits to the soil and consequently benefits to higher bud yield.
 
So then someone told you to go down the rabbit hole of testing runoff PPM out of soil... and you got concerned. Don't waste your time testing runoff in soil... it really tells you very little. You were not measuring salt only... you were measuring anything water soluble that had broken down, moss that had broken down, minerals that were now freed up, carbon, salt... runoff PPM of soil is quite impressive, and means nothing.

Agreed!

Here's a snippet from an article I read from blueskyorganics:


I’m growing organically and my readings are way off!

Yeah, this gets a little complicated. PPM are a straightforward measure for hydroponic or standard, synthetics-based growing. There’s a set number that’s ideal for each stage of growth, and that’s it. Organic growing is a little different. Part of the philosophy of organic growing is that the nutrients don’t just come from some refined, synthetic fertilizer. The soil itself should be fortified and made nutritious for your plants using natural, organic ingredients. Why does this affect PPM readings?

Rich, healthy organic soil is more complex than artificially fertilized soil or hydroponic solutions. The nutrients are stored in more complex molecules than with artificial fertilizers, that are released slowly over time. EC meters work by measuring the electrical conductivity of salts in water; organic nutrients haven’t yet broken down into simple salts. It’s like the difference between complex carbohydrates found in whole grains and refined white sugar. The organic nutrients get broken down by microorganisms over time, much like complex carbs get broken down by our digestive system. Therefore, the PPM readings you get from organic soil won’t reflect the actual nutrients that soil contains.

However, they may not be lower, as you might expect them to be. Why? There are plenty of non-nutrient solubles found in organic fertilizers that can confuse your readings. Remember how we talked about solubles in tap water earlier? This is a similar concept; many organic soil additives can end up adding acids and carbohydrates that are electrically conductive, thus throwing off your TDS meter’s EC readings.

Is it worth testing organic soil for PPM?

Good question. Due to the complex nature of organic soil, EC readings will be too inaccurate to determine whether the appropriate amount of nutrients are present in the soil. To determine if organic soil is well-balanced for your growing system, you’ll need to carefully monitor pH, watch the plant for signs of nutrient deficiency or imbalance, and learn from experience. If you have the resources, you can send a soil or plant matter sample to a lab for analysis. Alternatively, you could always rely on our simple four-step process for growing flavorful and potent organic cannabis.


So, ... at this point, I fully understand why my ppm reading was 5200 from a 10 gallon pot!

But initially, I was horrified and confused ... because this reading meant my plants were going to die maybe! But my plants looked perfectly healthy!

I was ready to flush ... transplant ... I had to save the plant.

But instead, I took a deep breath, did some research, and found the article that explained everything.

So, as a soil grower, I have decided to water and try to get about 10% to 20% run-off every time. I will track the pH and ppm of the feed and run-off over time because one day the values may come in handy.

*** Although, as a soil grower, I am not entirely sure if having 10% to 20% run-off every time is even healthy for the soil and the plant.
 
*** Although, as a soil grower, I am not entirely sure if having 10% to 20% run-off every time is even healthy for the soil and the plant.
well, just think about what it is that you are incrementally flushing out of there... microbes, minerals, nutrients, and then of course the carbon and salts. I water to runoff, and then I quit. I do come in hours later and water to runoff again, just to see how much the plants used in that time... but, I try to be good enough and slow enough that when I see the drip of runoff starting, I quit, knowing that more will drop over time because of gravity. I doubt my runoff is ever more than 1% because I don't like leaving water in the drip trays, especially in flower when I am trying to get the RH down. In veg I am slightly less careful and maybe go to 2%, but it is only for the humidity and not to clean or flush anything.
 
Now, the water. Unless you are running an organic grow, or a hydro grow where you are tracking PPM, tap water complete with its chlorine is perfectly fine to feed a soil grow ... and actually the minerals in tap water can be beneficial to the plants, and even stave off the dreaded and very common magnesium deficiency that shows up so often when people use RO water. So all that using tap water first and then distilled water... totally unnecessary. You are overthinking this. Actually during a flush, since you are washing all of the nutes out of the soil, you don't even need to adjust the pH... there is nothing there but water, and the plant doesn't care what the pH is as long as it is within reasonable limits.... the ONLY reason we adjust pH is to activate chelated nutes in a synthetic grow.

So, as a soil grower, I should be able to use my tap water which has a ppm of 400 ... and not have to buy distilled water or get an RO system ... right?

If it turns out my water is alkaline, then I will expect the pH of the soil to become acidic over time.

Will it hurt? ... Or is it even necessary to pH my water to between 6.3 and 6.8 when watering or feeding then?

I know @InTheShed has indicated I don't need to pH the water ... but I am "concerned" not to pH it.

It would be nice to able to say to @InTheShed ... got it ... I am a soil grower and will not pH my water anymore.

Again, no offense to @InTheShed ... but for me, water is critical! I can't get this wrong!
 
These data show that for the last two weeks of the flower cycle for
cannabis, it was possible to use no fertilizer water for irrigation with no significant impact on
yield while saving input costs on fertilizer.
I contend that given a proper flush at the proper time, the last 2 week budswell CAN be enhanced with additional nutes and finish products. I think this will add significant yield and quality increases. I believe that in the study, without that flush the plants were cruising along and not being pushed any longer because of the restrictions in uptake, so they adapted easily to less nutes or even no nutes during that 2 week period without any signs of stress. In my method we lock the throttle full on, seeing just how fast we can get going before the end. I guarantee you... there is a difference.
 
Will it hurt? ... Or is it even necessary to pH my water to between 6.3 and 6.8 when watering or feeding then?
I know @InTheShed has indicated I don't need to pH the water ... but I am "concerned" not to pH it.
It would be nice to able to say to @InTheShed ... got it ... I am a soil grower and will not pH my water anymore.
Again, no offense to @InTheShed ... but for me, water is critical! I can't get this wrong!

You do you SQl! Any well built soil or ProMix does not need nutrient water to be pH adjusted, but feel free to do so. The link in my sig explains what to watch out for in our water (alkalinity and the type of nitrogen) so we can know if the pH of the medium will be changing over time. That is what matters.

Visit my journal sometime. None of my plants get pH'd water.
 
And then, after your partial flush, you fed back nutes like a coco grower would do and this confuses me. In your soil grow, are you feeding every time you water, or are you doing feed/water/feed/water like you should? If this is the case, your flush should have just taken the place of one of your plain water waterings.

Interesting ...

In my soil recharge I described in the earlier post, I fed back nutes as a way of feeding after I flushed away the unwanted salts. I am still more than two weeks away from harvest.

Here is what I do regularly ...

1) Feed with FF Gringo Rasta nutes and AN Root Mass Expanders (Voodoo Juice, Piranha, Tarantula, CarboLoad)
2) Feed with FF Gringo Rasta nutes and AN Bud Potency & Stalk Strengthener, Crop Substrate Superpak, CarboLoad.

Then repeat, I never just feed with water.

I figure if the plants are healthy, then why deprive them of nutrients.
 
So, as a soil grower, I should be able to use my tap water which has a ppm of 400 ... and not have to buy distilled water or get an RO system ... right?

If it turns out my water is alkaline, then I will expect the pH of the soil to become acidic over time.

Will it hurt? ... Or is it even necessary to pH my water to between 6.3 and 6.8 when watering or feeding then?

I know @InTheShed has indicated I don't need to pH the water ... but I am "concerned" not to pH it.

It would be nice to able to say to @InTheShed ... got it ... I am a soil grower and will not pH my water anymore.

Again, no offense to @InTheShed ... but for me, water is critical! I can't get this wrong!
Remember that Shed's original thread had a lot to do with the Promix that did profoundly become affected by the fluids that passed through it. A good organic soil, especially one that is recomposted constantly, is a lot more resilient to that and indeed is why I supplement my soil with raw nutrients and buffers in between grows. Over the length of a normal grow, the soil is not going to change enough to even become a factor, because a good soil like FFOF is buffered at both ends, with peat at the low end and dolomite at the high end. Don't expect your soil to become overly acidic over time, unless you are looking at a 3 or 4 month bloom... then it might become a factor that bears watching, or in permanent locations, such as a tree that you are trying to nourish.
Yes, you can use tap water with no problems in a soil grow... and a lot of that ppm is actually beneficial, such as a bit of magnesium. People that use tap water used to not usually have magnesium deficiencies, until LEDs came along. Don't worry about the ppm of your water... it is going in soil and that number is meaningless. Even the fear of chlorine in tap water is really mostly myth, and surprisingly our plants actually need a tiny amount of chlorine. I have heard it said that it would take swimming pool strength chlorine to actually kill our microbes... the are tough little critters.
If you are using bottled nutes, they have a specific pH that their chemical compounds are designed to break apart at and become mobile in the solution. Whatever Shed is using, it is good stuff, and it must have a nice wide range, plus Shed has learned how to manage his water so that his pH is never too far out of line... plus he uses up the buffers in his medium to eliminate the need for adjusting pH. Soil is a little slower to react to an improper pH, no matter how well it is buffered, and it becomes more important to hit the target a little closer to center. In a fast soil, coming in at the high end can quickly make some of the elements immobile, and it is necessary to jump around a bit to make that happen. There are all sorts of tricks to make that happen occasionally, such as water/nuteing without pH adjustment, taking things to the low end to be buffered back up, and then coming in with unadjusted water the next time at the high end to "balance" things out... I think it is smarter to know why pH is important and just adjust it to the right spot so as to not waste nutes, if nothing else.
Once you wean yourself from that bottle, then tell Shed you no longer adjust your pH... or do what he is doing and get some Promix... apparently it is good stuff.
 
Interesting ...

In my soil recharge I described in the earlier post, I fed back nutes as a way of feeding after I flushed away the unwanted salts. I am still more than two weeks away from harvest.

Here is what I do regularly ...

1) Feed with FF Gringo Rasta nutes and AN Root Mass Expanders (Voodoo Juice, Piranha, Tarantula, CarboLoad)
2) Feed with FF Gringo Rasta nutes and AN Bud Potency & Stalk Strengthener, Crop Substrate Superpak, CarboLoad.

Then repeat, I never just feed with water.

I figure if the plants are healthy, then why deprive them of nutrients.
Surely you are not doing this at full strength, or you would be burning up a plant in soil. Typically it is water/feed/water/feed and in some systems they recommend feed/water/water
This is because all of the nutes are not used up on the first pass (at full strength) and plain water the next time gives them a second shot. This keeps the soil clean and gives good strong nutes when the plants want it, and then a relaxation time with less nutes the next time.
 
So, I call a flushed soil a clean soil, not a recharged one. To recharge soil I add back in raw minerals and cook them in over a couple of months. Flushing should be done every time the salts build up, and in a FF grow with FF nutes going in at full strength, you should flush 3 or 4 times during the grow... but that very most important time is right before bud swell at the end. A flush is also not going to wash out beneficial fungi... they sort of attach themselves to the roots and you are not going to dislodge them. Beneficial bacteria will be flushed away, but there will be more to replace them, especially if you are using FF Big Bloom, which brings a new load of them every time you water with nutes.

Alright ... I think I understand ...

It sounds like I should feed with nutes/water/nutes/water cycle.

I do not use raw minerals or cooking them right now.

Then about every 4 weeks when the salts build up, I should flush the soil.

If I flush the soil on a feed day, then I can apply a feed after the flush.

If I flush the soil on a watering day, then I am done, since the flush is effectively a heavy watering.

It sounds like a good idea to add in beneficial bacteria after any flush.
 
I have grown a couple of plants that had chemdog in their bloodlines, ran that during most of 2017 with Santero's stuff. I never have grown out a pure chemdog though, that would be fun.

Okay, tell ya what ... I have just put two Humboldt Seed Organization Chemdawg seeds into soil to germinate.

When they pop up, if you don't join us in @The Bard 's "Who Let The Dogs Out? Chem Comparison Grow!", I will name the first seedling "SenseEmilya" in your honor ... folks might get a kick out of that :)

And the second seedling I will name ... "SenseDrWatson" ... Dr. Watson is our dog and my trusty sidekick from our Bakerstreet grow.
 
Okay, tell ya what ... I have just put two Humboldt Seed Organization Chemdawg seeds into soil to germinate.

When they pop up, if you don't join us in @The Bard 's "Who Let The Dogs Out? Chem Comparison Grow!", I will name the the first seedling "SenseEmilya" in your honor ... folks might get a kick out of that :)

And the second seedling I will name ... "SenseDrWatson" ... Dr. Watson is our dog and my trusty sidekick from our Bakerstreet grow.
ok, i joined up. I rarely hit those 1000+ post threads... I tend to hang out in newbie journals a lot and the way I pontificate sometimes, that takes a lot of my time. :reading420magazine:
 
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