DocBud - New Room - Super Soil - Etc

Re: DocBud - New Room - Super Soil - Etc.

cryodude said:
Looking awesome doc. I just got my big tent up and running. Still waiting for my new lights and i need a couple of drain trays still for water removal.

I have a couple of picts that i will drop here since i just get very little travel on my little journals. I have some white widow clones i took from a ww i have in my outside grow. They rooted out well, but now they are showing something odd on some fan leaves, and a Purple Kush clone/momma i took has an edge curling issue, was hoping to get some of your expertise in figuring it out.

First are a couple of the WW shots with the odd yellowing on fan leaves, then under those is the PK with the curling up issue on the leaf edges.

9-4-11_White_Widow_clone_yellowing_edges_.jpg
9-4-11_white_widow_leaf_issue.jpg


All four of the ww clones are exhibiting those same things.

The PK now, its a different thing. maybe its just phenotype stuff related to the generic soil mix.

8-31_PK_more_leaf_curl.JPG
8-31_PK_leaf_edge_curl.JPG


Anyhow doc, if you have a couple of thoughts, i would love to solve the little problem.

background on the dirt, FFOF, fresh worm castings, 10% and #3 perlite 20% balance is FFOF. they are all in 3 or 5 gal containers and the dirt has supplements, glacial rock for trace elements, Espoma Garden Tone for sulphur and initial nutes, Mykos for some fungi, then i do two soaks, 1 a week with my tea. and one soak with cal-mag, liquinox, and no shock before the transplant. Then just a light no shock at transplant. The soaks are a tsp ea of those 3 supplements in 1 1/2 gals of water. Maybe i have things a little too rich??? doesn't appear that way from most of the picts, just a couple phenos not liking something maybe.

Thanks and can't wait to see the PPH get budding!
Click to expand...

The leaf curling in the second photos.....the PK...don't worry too much about that. I've had that happen before, I'm not sure what it is....but the plant grew and produced just fine. My Space Jills are like that...and they're fat and happy.

The WW appears to be a zinc/iron issue, because it's at the top of the plant, correct? If it is the middle of the plant, it could also be magnesium.

Questions for you:

1.)how much phosphorus is in your mix, and your feed water?
2.)how much magnesium? do you add any?
3.)Potassium....add any?

If you can give me the above info....I might be able to help you out.
 
Re: DocBud - New Room - Super Soil - Etc.

Doc's reply The leaf curling in the second photos.....the PK...don't worry too much about that. I've had that happen before, I'm not sure what it is....but the plant grew and produced just fine. My Space Jills are like that...and they're fat and happy.

The WW appears to be a zinc/iron issue, because it's at the top of the plant, correct? If it is the middle of the plant, it could also be magnesium.

Questions for you:

1.)how much phosphorus is in your mix, and your feed water?
2.)how much magnesium? do you add any?
3.)Potassium....add any?

If you can give me the above info....I might be able to help you out."

First reply is yes most of the affected leaves are at the top of the WW plants. it's more prevalent on the fan leaves 1 or 2 nodes down from the top growth shoots. I haven't seen them since i took those shots, so i don't know if it got worse or not. I will see them about noon tomorrow. But i will be unable to do any new screen shots till i get home some time late wednesday afternoon. I haven't checked to see if there is a way to upload photos directly to my ipad from my iphone. But i couldn't resize them of anything anyhow so they wouldn't be able to be put up anyhow.

I will have more info/picts when i get back in two days. I will try to reply tomorrow anyhow with visual info via my ipad at the other house.

The Garden Tone from Espoma, I use 1/2 cup in 2 cf of soil mix. It has 3% N, 4% P., 4% K, 1% mag, 5% Calcium, 2% sulfur, and tons of bacteria colonies. I use 4 tbsp of P (bone meal, organic in the soil mix. I use Glacial rock dust for trace elements, no azomite around where i am. The glacial has 5% sulfur, 5% calcium., .5% mag.,.4% iron and tons of other trace elements. I use 4 tbps per 2cf of soil mix. I then treat the mix when it is prepared and in containers with the liquinox, GH cal-mag, and my no shock transplant solution, 1 tsp ea per 1 1/2 gals of RO water. All they get is RO water. I do that two times over a 10 day period as i get the soil ready. I also use 1/2 gal of my tea when i do the cal-mag, liquinox solution the first application. I then cover the tops of the containers loosely and hope that i am getting some activity in the organics before i actually transplant.

The tea i use now is tweaked from what i was doing a month ago.

It is now 20 gals, RO water, at around 75-80 degrees. The ingredients are:

4 tbps molasses
2 tbps glacial rock
1/2 cup Fish hydryzolate
1/2 cup maxi crop
1/3 cup garden tone
10-12 cups fresh worm castings

This tea i use 1 gal to 1 gal RO water 2 times a week outside. I was leaning towards 1/2 gal tea to 1/2 gal RO water on the indoor plants. I haven't done that yet, its only been about 2 weeks that everything is now in 3-5 gal containers. But, i don't want to do anything with the tea till i know i have this issue figured out on the indoor guys.

Thanks again as always!!


i do a separate RO water tea with P bat guano, 1 cup to 4 gals, with 2 tbsp of molasses. i feed that at 1 pint to gal of RO water.
 
Re: DocBud - New Room - Super Soil - Etc.

cryodude said:
Doc's reply The leaf curling in the second photos.....the PK...don't worry too much about that. I've had that happen before, I'm not sure what it is....but the plant grew and produced just fine. My Space Jills are like that...and they're fat and happy.

The WW appears to be a zinc/iron issue, because it's at the top of the plant, correct? If it is the middle of the plant, it could also be magnesium.

Questions for you:

1.)how much phosphorus is in your mix, and your feed water?
2.)how much magnesium? do you add any?
3.)Potassium....add any?

If you can give me the above info....I might be able to help you out."

First reply is yes most of the affected leaves are at the top of the WW plants. it's more prevalent on the fan leaves 1 or 2 nodes down from the top growth shoots. I haven't seen them since i took those shots, so i don't know if it got worse or not. I will see them about noon tomorrow. But i will be unable to do any new screen shots till i get home some time late wednesday afternoon. I haven't checked to see if there is a way to upload photos directly to my ipad from my iphone. But i couldn't resize them of anything anyhow so they wouldn't be able to be put up anyhow.

I will have more info/picts when i get back in two days. I will try to reply tomorrow anyhow with visual info via my ipad at the other house.

The Garden Tone from Espoma, I use 1/2 cup in 2 cf of soil mix. It has 3% N, 4% P., 4% K, 1% mag, 5% Calcium, 2% sulfur, and tons of bacteria colonies. I use 4 tbsp of P (bone meal, organic in the soil mix. I use Glacial rock dust for trace elements, no azomite around where i am. The glacial has 5% sulfur, 5% calcium., .5% mag.,.4% iron and tons of other trace elements. I use 4 tbps per 2cf of soil mix. I then treat the mix when it is prepared and in containers with the liquinox, GH cal-mag, and my no shock transplant solution, 1 tsp ea per 1 1/2 gals of RO water. All they get is RO water. I do that two times over a 10 day period as i get the soil ready. I also use 1/2 gal of my tea when i do the cal-mag, liquinox solution the first application. I then cover the tops of the containers loosely and hope that i am getting some activity in the organics before i actually transplant.

The tea i use now is tweaked from what i was doing a month ago.

It is now 20 gals, RO water, at around 75-80 degrees. The ingredients are:

4 tbps molasses
2 tbps glacial rock
1/2 cup Fish hydryzolate
1/2 cup maxi crop
1/3 cup garden tone
10-12 cups fresh worm castings

This tea i use 1 gal to 1 gal RO water 2 times a week outside. I was leaning towards 1/2 gal tea to 1/2 gal RO water on the indoor plants. I haven't done that yet, its only been about 2 weeks that everything is now in 3-5 gal containers. But, i don't want to do anything with the tea till i know i have this issue figured out on the indoor guys.

Thanks again as always!!


i do a separate RO water tea with P bat guano, 1 cup to 4 gals, with 2 tbsp of molasses. i feed that at 1 pint to gal of RO water.
Click to expand...

Hey bro....awesome details. I love it!

From everything you said, I think a few waterings with Epsom Salts.....2 tbsp per gallon of RO....would make everything right.

I was worried that you had too much phosphorus, that was creating a lockout with iron and zinc....but your mix doesn't sound that hot in P...could be with the high P teas you feed, but their all slow release, so I really think you've got a magnesium def.

Hit her with the epsom salts and back off on the P for a while....maybe cut it in half for 2 weeks and then slowly adding back in as bloom progresses.
 
Re: DocBud - New Room - Super Soil - Etc.

What is your PH? The mix of nutrients plus the cal-mag seems like it may lower it to the low to mid 5's. You may want to consider testing with a PH pen about 30 minutes after mixing your nutrients just to be sure. I have found with Fox Farm soils, depending on your nutrients, the PH lowers to the mid to high 5's near the end of harvest if you don't amend it mid-way through flowering.
 
Re: DocBud - New Room - Super Soil - Etc.

4twenty4all said:
What is your PH? The mix of nutrients plus the cal-mag seems like it may lower it to the low to mid 5's. You may want to consider testing with a PH pen about 30 minutes after mixing your nutrients just to be sure. I have found with Fox Farm soils, depending on your nutrients, the PH lowers to the mid to high 5's near the end of harvest if you don't amend it mid-way through flowering.
Click to expand...

Fox Farms is pH stabilized. Plus he's got a thriving microherd going on.....pH is nearly meaningless in soil.

If you look at everything he's adding to his mix, you'll see that he's heavy on Calcium and light on Magnesium.......

When you hear hoofbeats, think horses, not zebras.

In good soil, there is no need to test pH. I certainly don't test mine.....

He just needs to add some mag......
 
Re: DocBud - New Room - Super Soil - Etc.

Hey Doc, he says that he is adding cal-mag in addition to other supplements that also contain mag.

From my experience even Fox Farm looses its ability to keep the PH stable after 3 - 4 months of adding nutes. I have tested this after a few crops showed signs of a mag deficiency mid to late flowering and found my PH in that 7.0 stabilized soil was 5.6. Since then I have amended the soil with a small amount of hydrated lime in the 2nd - 3rd week of flowering and have not had any issues since.

PH in soil is not meaningless and actually is more important and less forgiving than soil-less mixes. PH below 6.4 in soil makes it difficult for the plants to uptake Phosphorus, Calcium, and Magnesium. So, if the PH is much below that it does not matter how much Calcium or Magnesium you add.

If you are interested in testing your soil you can water it with plain 7.0 water. Water a small amount first to dampen the soil. Wait about 20 minutes and water thoroughly until water starts to drip into your pan. Wait about 10 minutes and then test the water in the pan with a PH pen.
 
Re: DocBud - New Room - Super Soil - Etc.

Thanks Doc and 4twentyall. I did PH soils and usually find they start out in the 6.8-7. range. Even after a couple of months, was still 6.3-6.5. I have not checked the inside PH but i will tomorrow. Also, will start adding a small amount of dolomitic lime to my mixes. maybe 3-4 tbsp to 15-20 gal of soil mix. I might have some hydrated lime. IF not, easy to get. I know it can be bad for the plants if to much is used, so if i were to treat at some point, with a little bit of hydrated lime, 2 tsps per gallon??? or mix that much into the top 1" or so of soil per 5 gaL container then hit with my RO water?
 
Re: DocBud - New Room - Super Soil - Etc.

DocBud said:
Fox Farms is pH stabilized. Plus he's got a thriving microherd going on.....pH is nearly meaningless in soil.

If you look at everything he's adding to his mix, you'll see that he's heavy on Calcium and light on Magnesium.......

When you hear hoofbeats, think horses, not zebras.

In good soil, there is no need to test pH. I certainly don't test mine.....

He just needs to add some mag......
Click to expand...


I'll hit em all with my humboldt cal mag friday. I may do a light spray with my liquinox/epsom salts spray bottle. I use 1/4 tsp liquinox and 1/2 tsp epsom salts to 1 liter of ro water. I have that sitting there all the time now.

They will get some mag though for sure, and i will also check my wand and be sure it is reading correctly. IF not, i can get another.

Thanks for the info guys. With luck, next weekend i will be turning the lights to 12/12 in that area.
 
Re: DocBud - New Room - Super Soil - Etc.

4twenty4all said:
Hey Doc, he says that he is adding cal-mag in addition to other supplements that also contain mag.

From my experience even Fox Farm looses its ability to keep the PH stable after 3 - 4 months of adding nutes. I have tested this after a few crops showed signs of a mag deficiency mid to late flowering and found my PH in that 7.0 stabilized soil was 5.6. Since then I have amended the soil with a small amount of hydrated lime in the 2nd - 3rd week of flowering and have not had any issues since.

PH in soil is not meaningless and actually is more important and less forgiving than soil-less mixes. PH below 6.4 in soil makes it difficult for the plants to uptake Phosphorus, Calcium, and Magnesium. So, if the PH is much below that it does not matter how much Calcium or Magnesium you add.

If you are interested in testing your soil you can water it with plain 7.0 water. Water a small amount first to dampen the soil. Wait about 20 minutes and water thoroughly until water starts to drip into your pan. Wait about 10 minutes and then test the water in the pan with a PH pen.
Click to expand...

Yeah....the charts. I know.

First of all, when I say "pH isn't important in soil," I do not mean that the pH of the soil isn't important....what I do mean, precisely, is that adjusting the pH of your nutrient/water isn't important.

Why is that? Think of a bucket of soil like a huge jug of pH down, and another huge jug of pH up. It's a buffer. You can water with pH of 8....and the runoff will be 6.5ish.....you can water with pH 4......runoff same. More importantly, the actual pH of the soil stays very stable.

Why? Well, first there's the physical properties of the stuff that makes soil: Peat, barks, organic matter, lime, etc.

But even more important than that is the microbial action in the soilweb.....the stuff that lives around and inside the roots. The microbes are constantly adjusting pH on a microscopic and macroscopic level.

There is a profound misundertanding on these forums when it comes to pH and soil.

If you build your soil properly, there is absolutely no need to adjust the pH of the feed water...provided:

1.)decent sized container
2.)Total alkalinity of the water is reasonable

There are millions of houseplants, vegetable gardens and flower gardens whose gardeners never check pH......they just buy soil at K-mart or HomeDepot.....fill a pot, and grow plants.

Pot Forum mythology has greatly overcomplicated things!!!

For example...adding a bunch of phosphoric acid to a gallon of nutrient solution greatly increases the amount of Phosphorus in the mix.....excess phosphorus inhibits uptake of zinc, iron and copper.....so the hapless gardener begins a long odyssey of adding this, adjusting that, trying a new soil, etc.

They look at other gardeners who have gorgeous plants, and wonder why they have trouble.....

Bottom line: If you're a soil gardener, just relax! Make up a good soil, use a large pot, periodically re-charge the microherd and add organic matter and molasses.....and relax! The plants will grow.....

Soil is not hydro! Everthing I said above does NOT apply to hydro.

 
Re: DocBud - New Room - Super Soil - Etc.

I am slowly relearning all this Doc. Once i get back in the flow of this, it should be simpler. I am still working on the soils ahead of time. I'm sure things will settle down once i get the outside done so i can 100% focus inside. I do need to get a new PH tool for checking run off though.
 
Re: DocBud - New Room - Super Soil - Etc.

cryodude said:
I am slowly relearning all this Doc. Once i get back in the flow of this, it should be simpler. I am still working on the soils ahead of time. I'm sure things will settle down once i get the outside done so i can 100% focus inside. I do need to get a new PH tool for checking run off though.
Click to expand...

Too bad you're not around here....I'd just let you take mine.

If you're going to be a soil grower, just get some pH paper. It doesn't need to be calibrated, and as long as you're in the right light, you can't mess up.

Or.....send a sample of your soil to one of the many labs that test soil samples, and find out exactly what's what.

BTW, I don't recommend you add any more CalMag.....you've already got too much CA.....and it inhibits magnesium uptake.

Just use the Epsom salts.
 
Re: DocBud - New Room - Super Soil - Etc.

Hey Doc, I pretty much agree with you. Gardeners that are growing houseplants, vegetables, etc.. in cheap soil are not feeding their plants the amounts and frequency of fertilizers that we are for pot plants. So, the soil will maintain a stable PH for a longer period of time.

Most gardeners growing pot in this forum are growing in containers from 2 - 5 gallon on average. That is the size container that will exhibit the PH drop over a 3 - 4 month period which is why a small amount of lime 1 tsp/gallon of soil helps for the end of flowering. If you haven't experienced a magnesium-looking deficiency then I wouldn't worry about it. Too often I see gardeners add more and more nutrient when they really have a PH imbalance that caused lockout.

I always suggest testing PH and easing up on nutrients before compounding the problem. Also, some pests can go undetected for months and cause the same symptoms.

I agree with you that keeping it simple and relaxing will solve/prevent most problems :-) Peace and good info Doc.
 
Re: DocBud - New Room - Super Soil - Etc.

DocBud said:
Too bad you're not around here....I'd just let you take mine.

If you're going to be a soil grower, just get some pH paper. It doesn't need to be calibrated, and as long as you're in the right light, you can't mess up.

Or.....send a sample of your soil to one of the many labs that test soil samples, and find out exactly what's what.

BTW, I don't recommend you add any more CalMag.....you've already got too much CA.....and it inhibits magnesium uptake.

Just use the Epsom salts.
Click to expand...

Epsom Salts it is then. I have those sitting there. Couple tsps in a gallon. i'll spray leaves first. then dilute the remains with another gallon of RO water and give them all a pint or so on the soil. But i am definitely getting some dolomitic lime to stick in the soil when i premix. that should help some too down the road.
 
Re: DocBud - New Room - Super Soil - Etc.

cryodude said:
Epsom Salts it is then. I have those sitting there. Couple tsps in a gallon. i'll spray leaves first. then dilute the remains with another gallon of RO water and give them all a pint or so on the soil. But i am definitely getting some dolomitic lime to stick in the soil when i premix. that should help some too down the road.
Click to expand...

I add lime to my soil mix. I do it to stabilize pH AND to provide a good source of Cal Mag.

However, when I have a deficiency....which I get from time to time in the really fast growers.....I treat that specifically.

The other thing to keep in mind is that if you use some dechlorinated tap water, you won't experience a pH drop over 3-4 months.....if anything it will go UP a bit.

But, with properly built soil, you shouldn't have to worry about pH at all. I don't.

------------------------------

After 3 or 4 waterings with the Epsom Salts.....you should see improvement. I'd follow that up with a massive flush done with worm tea. 3x's the volume of the pot, IE 9 gallons through a 3 gallon pot. The microbial inoculation of the soil will set the pH right in no time.
 
Re: DocBud - New Room - Super Soil - Etc.

DocBud said:
Funny you should say that. I'm seriously looking into Tissue Culture, for this exact reason.

However, with regard to genetics......I'm pretty sold on seeds. Not that I reject good clones....I grow some clones on every cycle, but I really like seeds.

Sure, you get variations in pheno's.....but that's what makes it interesting! Instead of McDonald's, with quarter pounders tasting exactly the same everywhere in the world.....you get something new or seasoned differently every time you grow from seeds.

This strain is pretty stable, so I should be able to find this one again. All three plants smell great.....but each is different and unique. I like that.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I guess my mind-frame is a bit different because of where I live. I have not found a method of obtaining seeds here that I'm really comfortable with.

If I have a mother I'm happy with, and I do at the moment (I entered my WW bonsai mom in the POTM contest this month:)), then I have an unlimited number of clones available, with no stress over the seeds.

I'll admit I'm a little jealous of you guys and girls out on the West coast. I can't wait for the day we can all walk into a dispensary or seed bank and walk out with all the seeds we want.

:Namaste:
 
Re: DocBud - New Room - Super Soil - Etc.

Doc,

Since the topic lately seems to be Cal/Mag, I guess it is quite timely since I was ready to ask you about my next mix.

I just set up a couple buckets with some 2/3 Promix Organic and 1/3 MagikMoss. Two of the three soils I used my last grow. Recommended dose of OC+ and a half dose DMRed. 2 tbsp garden lime 2 tsp gypsum and a dash of epsoms. Omitting the BioTone this time. And probably use some Molasses, Snowstorn Ultra, and Humbolt Gianormous during flowering.

Since I was at the hydro store for the Promix, I bought some Bionicare Cal/Mag to have on hand.

Question I have about the Cal/Mag is, Do you wait until you see deficiencies? Or use it regular? How often do you add it? During veg and flowering?

And about the Snowstorm, veg and flower? How often?
 
Re: DocBud - New Room - Super Soil - Etc.

Fratdogg223 said:
Yeah, I guess my mind-frame is a bit different because of where I live. I have not found a method of obtaining seeds here that I'm really comfortable with.

If I have a mother I'm happy with, and I do at the moment (I entered my WW bonsai mom in the POTM contest this month:)), then I have an unlimited number of clones available, with no stress over the seeds.

I'll admit I'm a little jealous of you guys and girls out on the West coast. I can't wait for the day we can all walk into a dispensary or seed bank and walk out with all the seeds we want.

:Namaste:
Click to expand...

I make my own seeds. I only buy a 10 pack when I want something new. I hate femmed seeds! (no males=no seeds)

Hash Hound said:
Doc,

Since the topic lately seems to be Cal/Mag, I guess it is quite timely since I was ready to ask you about my next mix.

I just set up a couple buckets with some 2/3 Promix Organic and 1/3 MagikMoss. Two of the three soils I used my last grow. Recommended dose of OC+ and a half dose DMRed. 2 tbsp garden lime 2 tsp gypsum and a dash of epsoms. Omitting the BioTone this time. And probably use some Molasses, Snowstorn Ultra, and Humbolt Gianormous during flowering.

Since I was at the hydro store for the Promix, I bought some Bionicare Cal/Mag to have on hand.

Question I have about the Cal/Mag is, Do you wait until you see deficiencies? Or use it regular? How often do you add it? During veg and flowering?

And about the Snowstorm, veg and flower? How often?
Click to expand...

I use it when I'm using RO water to try to make it like good tap water. I try to never see deficiencies.....but I'm not always successful.

Snowstorm: start in flower. 1/2 dose at first, then full dose by week 4. I don't use it in veg. Your soil mix sounds good! Make sure to use some good tea to get the delicious flavor....

NEPharmer said:
Hey Doc, just catching up
Click to expand...

Good to see you bro! Check back in about an hour. Got some pics coming.
 
Re: DocBud - New Room - Super Soil - Etc.

Purple Paki's in 7 gallons supersoil
7 jack's in 3 gallon FFOF, OC+, compost, mykos, wick.
1 jack in 7 gallon supesoil.
Willie Nelson....takes up an entire light.

Root scoring technique
Wick technique


Space Jill Looking OK:

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