Doc Bud's High Brix Q&A With Pictures

Slightly long post alert!

Hey Doc - please help me think through trying to identify possible issues wth my soil mix. I had weak and hollow stems at the end of this grow, and a struggling stunted plant throughout. Something’s up.

This is particularly for Doc as it specifically relates to working from pure Peat Moss and getting the balance right without access to Pro Mix HP so the questions are pretty much for Doc. No offence to anyone else, usually all perspectives are desired - but this stuff can get overwhelming pretty quickly for me when everyone’s opinions start flying - so please be kind to my brain and keep speculation to a minimum :) :Namaste: . I was going to just PM Doc about it, but figured it might help someone else in the future - so I’ll keep it on the boards! (And if it gets more involved I’m probably going to be asking Doc for his phone number - nothing beats an actual conversation :)).

The plant that has just finished (Blue Dream) was still really small and stunted after 10weeks veg, didn’t stretch and when I harvested the main stem showed hollow up the middle and some of the branches were hollow also (particularly the lower ones). The ‘skeleton’ of the plant was weak and bendy (I’ve not had this before - my plant skeletons last year in particular were as hard as steel! - and solid to the core).

Something isn’t right and I just need a bit of guidance to troubleshoot and maybe make a couple of small adjustments. Weak and hollow stems are not a high brix event!

So, either it’s the soil mix, or the gnats are responsible, or the Bti powder I got to combat the gnats has caused some probs (but that seems unlikely).

To clarify about the gnats. It never looked like a massive infestation. I caught maybe 50 on sticky traps throughout the whole grow. I saw the odd one flying around during the first half of the grow and early flower but not so much the after that. However, I continued to get the damage on leaves that indicates gnat larvae activity and growth was continuously stunted and sometimes oddly formed when it first emerged. So they have been a damaging presence for sure and maybe can account for all the issues (stunting, slow growth and poor mineral uptake?).

I also can confirm that the environment was within spec for the most part throughout the grow. Sometimes lower temps overnight, but never below 62ºF (and usually about 65-66ºF).

I realise all the problems could be just the gnats interfering with the hook up between roots and soil biota. But the hollow and weak stems make me (and others - neiko was curious too) wonder if my soil mix is not quite right - and this is where that thinking led me:

I had to amend pure peat moss for my base mix, which i did as per Doc’s recommendation at the time of 1/2cup calcitic limestone powder for the whole bale (I had 3.8cu ft compressed Peat Moss).

So, this may not be relevant or my calculations might be off, but;
  • Pro Mix HP (myco) has 100-180 mg/l calcitic limestone (according to the spec sheet)
  • Back in 2014 Doc recommended to another grower that 1/2lb of calcitic limestone to a 3.8cu ft bale of Peat Moss should be about right.
By my (very loose) calculations both of those come out to about 1 to 1.5 cup (final volume of soil is about 60gal which is about 220l.).

I don’t know how much difference that extra .5- 1 cup would make at our quantities, but do you think it might be worth me blending through another cup or so through the cooked soil?

Also, Doc recommended that same grower back in 2014 to add about 1/3 of the supplied Roots! powder to the mix for cooking too. I didn’t do that. I did end up top dressing Roots! and watering it in occasionally tho (because I was worried bout the gnats eating the root hyphae and wanted to keep ‘replenishing’) and it seemed to help a bit.

So I am asking here - might it be a good idea to add a cup or so of limestone powder AND 1/3 of the supplied Roots! to the mix? I figure, if I did that I’d at least be eliminating another possible point of concern (in my mind) with the soil mix.

Something definitely isn’t right and I realise that I shouldn’t change too many things at once trying to sort it out. So I’m suggesting I try those things and see how it grows in the pots outside this year (I should be close to up-canning in a few weeks). And then take it from there.

The current grow is perhaps already a bit compromised as I have very, very slow growth on the new seedlings in 1gals and not a lot of vigour. I know the gnat problem got worse as these were coming up so am hoping its just that. I have physical barriers now with some Gnat nix and am blocking the holes on the pots with a fine mesh to keep the li’l suckers out.

It’s also possible, I should mention, that the worm castings are an issue. I definitely have too much in there and that will hopefully improve for the second run, when I will likely add no extra (just rootballs). And I have no idea of the NPK of the castings - the producers (4 different places I asked) of the castings were all shocked by that question. They have no idea.

So I realise I could try this slight adjustment I’m asking about and still have an issue if the gnats are still a problem and the worm castings are/were bad. But we should at least try... Hollow stems just wont do at all! I’m sure you agree :D

Thanks Doc! :Namaste:
 
Amy, good day . I have some thoughts but will hold back for now....but would just like to say that your reasoning with the Ca, is spot on. Just one question please. Have you added Perlite to your mix to improve drainage and soil aeration.
 
Yes! I added perlite to 25% (ish). So the final mix has 3/4 of the original bale of Peat Moss, with the perlite added in :thumb:
 
Thank you Amy...i know u said to wait for Doc and not speculate but...but....:hugs: ....i cant help myself....:ganjamon:
 
That’s fine Duggs! That was a context question really, and an important one - so, all good :ganjamon:
 
Amy Gardner said:
Slightly long post alert!

Hey Doc - please help me think through trying to identify possible issues wth my soil mix. I had weak and hollow stems at the end of this grow, and a struggling stunted plant throughout. Something’s up.

This is particularly for Doc as it specifically relates to working from pure Peat Moss and getting the balance right without access to Pro Mix HP so the questions are pretty much for Doc. No offence to anyone else, usually all perspectives are desired - but this stuff can get overwhelming pretty quickly for me when everyone’s opinions start flying - so please be kind to my brain and keep speculation to a minimum :):Namaste: . I was going to just PM Doc about it, but figured it might help someone else in the future - so I’ll keep it on the boards! (And if it gets more involved I’m probably going to be asking Doc for his phone number - nothing beats an actual conversation :)).

The plant that has just finished (Blue Dream) was still really small and stunted after 10weeks veg, didn’t stretch and when I harvested the main stem showed hollow up the middle and some of the branches were hollow also (particularly the lower ones). The ‘skeleton’ of the plant was weak and bendy (I’ve not had this before - my plant skeletons last year in particular were as hard as steel! - and solid to the core).

Something isn’t right and I just need a bit of guidance to troubleshoot and maybe make a couple of small adjustments. Weak and hollow stems are not a high brix event!

So, either it’s the soil mix, or the gnats are responsible, or the Bti powder I got to combat the gnats has caused some probs (but that seems unlikely).

To clarify about the gnats. It never looked like a massive infestation. I caught maybe 50 on sticky traps throughout the whole grow. I saw the odd one flying around during the first half of the grow and early flower but not so much the after that. However, I continued to get the damage on leaves that indicates gnat larvae activity and growth was continuously stunted and sometimes oddly formed when it first emerged. So they have been a damaging presence for sure and maybe can account for all the issues (stunting, slow growth and poor mineral uptake?).

I also can confirm that the environment was within spec for the most part throughout the grow. Sometimes lower temps overnight, but never below 62ºF (and usually about 65-66ºF).

I realise all the problems could be just the gnats interfering with the hook up between roots and soil biota. But the hollow and weak stems make me (and others - neiko was curious too) wonder if my soil mix is not quite right - and this is where that thinking led me:

I had to amend pure peat moss for my base mix, which i did as per Doc’s recommendation at the time of 1/2cup calcitic limestone powder for the whole bale (I had 3.8cu ft compressed Peat Moss).

So, this may not be relevant or my calculations might be off, but;
  • Pro Mix HP (myco) has 100-180 mg/l calcitic limestone (according to the spec sheet)
  • Back in 2014 Doc recommended to another grower that 1/2lb of calcitic limestone to a 3.8cu ft bale of Peat Moss should be about right.
By my (very loose) calculations both of those come out to about 1 to 1.5 cup (final volume of soil is about 60gal which is about 220l.).

I don’t know how much difference that extra .5- 1 cup would make at our quantities, but do you think it might be worth me blending through another cup or so through the cooked soil?

Also, Doc recommended that same grower back in 2014 to add about 1/3 of the supplied Roots! powder to the mix for cooking too. I didn’t do that. I did end up top dressing Roots! and watering it in occasionally tho (because I was worried bout the gnats eating the root hyphae and wanted to keep ‘replenishing’) and it seemed to help a bit.

So I am asking here - might it be a good idea to add a cup or so of limestone powder AND 1/3 of the supplied Roots! to the mix? I figure, if I did that I’d at least be eliminating another possible point of concern (in my mind) with the soil mix.

Something definitely isn’t right and I realise that I shouldn’t change too many things at once trying to sort it out. So I’m suggesting I try those things and see how it grows in the pots outside this year (I should be close to up-canning in a few weeks). And then take it from there.

The current grow is perhaps already a bit compromised as I have very, very slow growth on the new seedlings in 1gals and not a lot of vigour. I know the gnat problem got worse as these were coming up so am hoping its just that. I have physical barriers now with some Gnat nix and am blocking the holes on the pots with a fine mesh to keep the li’l suckers out.

It’s also possible, I should mention, that the worm castings are an issue. I definitely have too much in there and that will hopefully improve for the second run, when I will likely add no extra (just rootballs). And I have no idea of the NPK of the castings - the producers (4 different places I asked) of the castings were all shocked by that question. They have no idea.

So I realise I could try this slight adjustment I’m asking about and still have an issue if the gnats are still a problem and the worm castings are/were bad. But we should at least try... Hollow stems just wont do at all! I’m sure you agree :D

Thanks Doc! :Namaste:
Click to expand...

Hi Amy,

As you know, we did our best guess with your situation. It's impossible to tell exactly what to do without a soil test, as you know.

Having said that, I'd add just a bit more CaCo3 to the mix....half of what you think should be added with your math. The amendments will do the rest.

BTW, 62 degrees is TOO COLD and will stunt growth on its own.

Your raised beds will rock. I recommend heading in that direction in the future.
 
Thanks Doc, will do!

I have one raised bed so far. More to build down the track. But for indoor I may always need the SPM mix. It’s so lightweight it really suits me. I can’t move even small pots on my own when they’re full of regular dirt ;).

I have this current soil mix that I’ve only grown one plant in so far so that’s an investment I’ll be sticking with for the usual 3-4 runs. I’ll only grow 2-3 plants in it per run, 2x runs per year. So it’s gonna take me a few years to cycle it out. By then everything could have changed:)

Thanks Doc - and thanks for helping me sort out my latest order too. Almost there. ... :Namaste:
 
Hey Doc and gang I have been having a few issues in flower lately and I was wondering if anyone could help point me in the right direction on how to fix this. First a little back ground. I am in second run soil that was amended and mixed with 30 pounds of EWC for the first cook. The second cook it was amended and mixed with about 20 pounds of EWC and cooked for another 30 plus days. I always transplant and flip the same day. My tent has been running between 65 and 83 lights off and lights on respectively and rh has been between 40 and 60%. The plants are in my tent that is sitting on top of 2 inch insulation that is on top of a concrete slab. Both plants are a couple of weeks post flip and have started showing these symptoms on some of the leaves. The stems are also on the purple side of things. Thanks in advance for any input.

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These crappy leaves happen to be on the plants furthest from where the warm air is coming in. The other thing I have been wondering is if my water is maybe too cold and that is hurting the micro herd. I keep my spare water jugs on an inch of rigid insulation sitting on top of my cement floor and then the water to be used sits up a couple of feet off the ground with a nice air gap below it. Still the water is cool to the touch. I bought a 100 watt aquarium heater and decided to put that in the jjug of to be used water. I am hoping that tomorrow I can give a rescue drench to the two plants these leaves came from. One had a GE last though so that may get water and then rescue while the other got water last and was going to get GE next. I am thinking I will just give her a rescue using warm water and hope for the best.
 
TheGreenYeti said:
These crappy leaves happen to be on the plants furthest from where the warm air is coming in. The other thing I have been wondering is if my water is maybe too cold and that is hurting the micro herd. I keep my spare water jugs on an inch of rigid insulation sitting on top of my cement floor and then the water to be used sits up a couple of feet off the ground with a nice air gap below it. Still the water is cool to the touch. I bought a 100 watt aquarium heater and decided to put that in the jjug of to be used water. I am hoping that tomorrow I can give a rescue drench to the two plants these leaves came from. One had a GE last though so that may get water and then rescue while the other got water last and was going to get GE next. I am thinking I will just give her a rescue using warm water and hope for the best.
Click to expand...
Hi Yeti,

What has the drink/drench schedule been? Are the leaves from different plants, different strains? Are the other plants in the room fine?

I keep my water in buckets in the room too, on a cart, off the floor, so it’s the same temp as the plants. When I was not doing this, and using cold RO water, some plants did not like it at all.
 
TheGreenYeti said:
These crappy leaves happen to be on the plants furthest from where the warm air is coming in. The other thing I have been wondering is if my water is maybe too cold and that is hurting the micro herd. I keep my spare water jugs on an inch of rigid insulation sitting on top of my cement floor and then the water to be used sits up a couple of feet off the ground with a nice air gap below it. Still the water is cool to the touch. I bought a 100 watt aquarium heater and decided to put that in the jjug of to be used water. I am hoping that tomorrow I can give a rescue drench to the two plants these leaves came from. One had a GE last though so that may get water and then rescue while the other got water last and was going to get GE next. I am thinking I will just give her a rescue using warm water and hope for the best.
Click to expand...

Try just warm water and no rescue. let it get good and dry. That's likely the problem because everything else is perfect.

As their metabolism catches up the issue should clear up.
 
dajerm119 said:
Yep... I make sure my water is around 78f before use. I just use a bit of hot out of the water dispenser and then fill the rest with RO from a jug that sits in the kitchen. And I can definitely tell if I forget to do this... plants can take days longer to want feeding again, leaves droop a bit too.
Click to expand...

Yep. If the temperature of the soil gets below 65 degrees there's a marked decrease in microbial activity.

Our wimpy indoor lighting just doesn't warm up the air enough to combat a gallon of frigid water fast enough. The damage is then done.
 
Thank you guys for the responses! @DopyLemontree it is from 2 different plants that are two different strains. Half of the tent looks pretty good considering the lack of attention I have given them and then the other half kind of looks like this. The half that looks good is the half that is next to the intake that is bringing in warm air. My temp gauge sits more on the side of the tent that I am having issues with. I up-potted with water, I give a half gallon per pot when I transplant because the pots were taking too long to dry out when I gave a full gallon, then I gave them a trans drench, then water then GE for one of them. The second water they got re-charge and some EWC as a top dressing.
 
TheGreenYeti said:
Thank you guys for the responses! @DopyLemontree it is from 2 different plants that are two different strains. Half of the tent looks pretty good considering the lack of attention I have given them and then the other half kind of looks like this. The half that looks good is the half that is next to the intake that is bringing in warm air. My temp gauge sits more on the side of the tent that I am having issues with. I up-potted with water, I give a half gallon per pot when I transplant because the pots were taking too long to dry out when I gave a full gallon, then I gave them a trans drench, then water then GE for one of them. The second water they got re-charge and some EWC as a top dressing.
Click to expand...

Interesting, sounds like the temps are the culprit. Do you circulate the air with a fan?
 
DopyLemontree said:
Interesting, sounds like the temps are the culprit. Do you circulate the air with a fan?
Click to expand...
There are a few fans in the tent moving air around. There is not one right by the intake moving that around. I could try and sneak one over there if I can find the floor space. Thanks for the idea.
 
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