Doc Bud: All Organic OG Kush SCROG

Hash Hound said:
Doc, to be honest I don't know the difference in the two, I thought they did the same thing. I saw it used somewhere else

I didn't just add it this time. I have used them either alone or combined in all my grows. Same with the nutes. Only difference this grow is I switched from Gianormous to Dynagro Bloom.

Next batch it's soil and OC+.

Thanks again Doc.
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for future reference, Dolomite is CaMg(CO3)2....Calcium Magnesium Carbonate. (bi-carbonate actually)

It is used in gardening to raise soil pH. It is a nominal source of magnesium as well......but primarily it is used to raise pH.

Limestone is CaC03.....Calcium Carbonate. It is a source of calcium. Hydrated lime is also a very fast means of raising soil pH.

So, when you add both together, you're probably creating a bit of a mess.....


A better approach would be to leave the soil alone, unless you're adding a bunch or organic material, in which case you should add Dolomite to buffer pH.

If you need a Calcium source, there are several methods that work well:

1.)add gypsum. you also get sulfur AND it improves soil structure
2.)add oyster shell meal....needs to be done at least a month before planting assuming active beneficials in the soil
3.)add egg shells from your breakfast eggs
4.)Tap water (depends on the water)
5.)CalMag supplement.

If you need a magnesium source, Epsom salts work well.....and you also get the sulfur.

So, think of Dolomite, not as a source of any nutrient, but as a means of raising and buffering soil pH.

College grads with degrees in soil science are employed by companies to design their soils.....amend soil, etc. These are the folks who formulate the bags of soil we buy.....so I try to defer to their expertise since they know more than I do.

With OC+ it's very simple:

1.)dump soil from bag to pot
2.)mix in OC+
3.)Water

Organics are a bit more complex, but copying is wise until you gain an understanding of what the raw materials do and how they effect eachother and the soil as a whole.
 
Skid Mark said:
Skid's back.....
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A note on strain development:

Hybrids are created to retain desired characteristics from Indica and Sativa lineages. By altering the ratio of sativa and indica influences, it is possible to breed cannabis hybrids for desired ‘highs’, flavors, aromas, and growing characteristics. For example, indica generally exhibits superior indoor growth characteritics. On the other hand, the indica’s narcotic body stone is undesireable to many growers, so breeders may wish to selectively breed their hybrids in order to produce a strain with a sativa ‘up’ high, and indica growth and yield characteristics.

Note: A F1 hybrid (stable crossing/developed strain) can be produced from two landraces or from a hybrid and a landrace. It is not possible to make stable hybrids from two (or more) hybrids. Crossings between already crossed plants are like “mud puppies”. Seeds from these varieties will produce plants with huge fluctuations between them. This is because the genetic combination was scattered when it was reproduced. This means the offspring will look like (any combination of) the different ancestors used when the hybrid was made, and not nessecarily like the hybrid itself.

This is why seeds folks buy from vendors lack stability (not always), a hybrid cross will be all over the map! In general, most so called breeders just back cross others work(Pollen Slinger in the trades). This is why seeds folks buy on line have a variety of different pheno. So when purchasing seeds on line, if you read they are crossed with "this with that" most likley will not be a stable strain. This is okay, for the most part, sometimes having a variety of pheno can be fun! But if you are looking to develop strains, make sure to seek out Landrace strains to work with.
 
Skid Mark said:
A note on strain development:

Hybrids are created to retain desired characteristics from Indica and Sativa lineages. By altering the ratio of sativa and indica influences, it is possible to breed cannabis hybrids for desired 'highs', flavors, aromas, and growing characteristics. For example, indica generally exhibits superior indoor growth characteritics. On the other hand, the indica's narcotic body stone is undesireable to many growers, so breeders may wish to selectively breed their hybrids in order to produce a strain with a sativa 'up' high, and indica growth and yield characteristics.

Note: A F1 hybrid (stable crossing/developed strain) can be produced from two landraces or from a hybrid and a landrace. It is not possible to make stable hybrids from two (or more) hybrids. Crossings between already crossed plants are like "mud puppies". Seeds from these varieties will produce plants with huge fluctuations between them. This is because the genetic combination was scattered when it was reproduced. This means the offspring will look like (any combination of) the different ancestors used when the hybrid was made, and not nessecarily like the hybrid itself.

This is why seeds folks buy from vendors lack stability (not always), a hybrid cross will be all over the map! In general, most so called breeders just back cross others work(Pollen Slinger in the trades). This is why seeds folks buy on line have a variety of different pheno. So when purchasing seeds on line, if you read they are crossed with "this with that" most likley will not be a stable strain. This is okay, for the most part, sometimes having a variety of pheno can be fun! But if you are looking to develop strains, make sure to seek out Landrace strains to work with.
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What up Skid!

Glad to see you're back.
 
Skid Mark said:
Just trying to help. Like always Bud Man, I see you are hard at work and teaching....I love it!
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I got through college leading study groups for exams! I learned the material better by teaching others than by studying on my own....'cuz you get too bored otherwise.

So, I've got a question for you!

Let's say I've got a very stable landrace Pakistani plant....a Kush if you will....and a pure landrace equatorial sativa.

I've also got some hybrids, and stuff like c99, etc.

How does one go about crossing in order to come up with something stable? I know you can just cross, see what comes up and make a mother plant if you hit the motherlode.....but that takes a massive amount of room, and a long, long time.

I want to get the effect of Columbian Gold with growing characteristics that are suitable for indoors.

You have a roadmap?
 
Define "stable" strain for me. I have over the years slung a lot of pollen, generally to make an F1 generation. I pick potent plants that seem to differ a lot with my baseline generally being a strong indica and the other end being a strong sativa or hybrid with good traits. I have in the most part (90%) of the time come up with plants from those seeds that are very similar. Meaning among that community the plants show little variation in what they look like or the stone imparted. I have not ever tried to make an F2 generation and I seldom use the cross for future pollen slinging unless I have something very special to cross into it.
 
Hash Hound said:
Thanks again Doc. I do have to remember to keep it simple.

Any plans on writing a book? Or a instruction DVD? I'd by one.
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No....no plans for that at this time. But thanks!
 
Doc, a root question for you.

I harvested a Kannabia - Original Berry yesterday and noticed the top half of the pot had very little roots in it and the bottom half seemed to have all the root action going on. As a matter of fact the roots seemed to hit bottom then start back up the sides of the pot. I use 4 gl square ones.

I know you use your super soil on the bottom and just soil on top right?
So even when mixing OC+ in to the soil should it all be added to the bottom half of the pot and plain dirt on top, or thoroughly mix the OC+ throughout?
 
DocBud said:
I got through college leading study groups for exams! I learned the material better by teaching others than by studying on my own....'cuz you get too bored otherwise.

So, I've got a question for you!

Let's say I've got a very stable landrace Pakistani plant....a Kush if you will....and a pure landrace equatorial sativa.

I've also got some hybrids, and stuff like c99, etc.

How does one go about crossing in order to come up with something stable? I know you can just cross, see what comes up and make a mother plant if you hit the motherlode.....but that takes a massive amount of room, and a long, long time. I want to get the effect of Columbian Gold with growing characteristics that are suitable for indoors.

You have a roadmap?
Click to expand...



Easy deal you ask Bud Man: Just male up your CG and sex up your Paki. Remember what goes bad with breeding is Hybrid to Hybrid. As I mentioned, all one is achieving with Hybrid to Hybrid breeding is "mud puppies" it's like a box of chocolates you never know what you will get.....

Now this is simplistic but a good start. To stabilize this CG/Paki strain one really needs to grow out many selective trials. It can take many years and thousands of plants to "weed" out what traits you are looking for. Bud Man get on your tissue culture and you can avoid all this mess.....

Note: A common technique to stabilize a cannabis strain is called "cubing", in which the breeder will seek specific traits in the hybrid offspring (e.g. greater resin production, tighter node spacing, etc.) and breed said offspring with a parent plant (your favorite Landrace). The same traits are sought in the new inbred offspring, which are then again bred with the original parent plant. This process is called cubing because it usually repeated across three (or possibly more) generations before a strain can be considered at least somewhat stable.

Seed shops sell both pure strains that have specific aspects stabilized as well as unstabilized hybrids that may be of questionable quality.

Most cannabis strains used today in North America are asexually propagated Sativa strains, that were bred hydroponically to produce large amounts of "bud".

This is a really complicated and time Consuming Endeavor.

Rule of thumb for the novice breeder:

Hybrid to hybrid the worst outcome but can be fun. What ends up happening when using this method is one gets all types of Pheno and possible Hermie. This is why so many so called Breeders hit and miss with strain development. They take others work and cross Hybrid to Hybrid and send these defective strains out to you....Plus get $3-10 a bean in the mean time. You get a few good girls and you forget all about it.

Ladrace to Landrace excellent! Then build off this with hybrid development. Years back the Haze Bros. got lucky and Crossed a Columbian with Thai and holy cow they came up with "Haze," now in most strains folks smoke these days.

Hybrid to Landrace good too. May get to where you want faster.

Landrace to Hybrid another great way to get to where you want faster.

Just remember, find a good variety of Landrace you are fond of and try breeding originally with these. If you can't, that's okay just have fun and cross those Hybrids to your hearts content. Maybe you will get lucky!!!!

For you enjoyment think of the possibilities. A list of Indica Landrace.
Landrace (Pure) Varieties.
■Afghani (Lowland, Highland — Afghan kush)
■Arab
■Chinese
■Iranian
■Lebanese
■Moroccan (Kif)
■North Indian
■New Zealand Sativa
■Pakistani
■Tajikistani
■Turkish
■Uzbekistani

Indica Developed strains from Landrace: INDICA Developed Varieties
■Afghani #1
■Bella ciao
■Butterscotch Hawaiian
■Early Girl
■Kush
■Lightstorm
■Mango
■Mazar
■Northern Lights #1
■Oasis (Northern Lights #2)
■Manghani (A very resinous Mango x Afghan)
■Southern Daze
■Millennium Bud
■Mongolian
■Mother of Mercy*
■Romulan
■Alaskan Thunderfuck
■Mad Shad
■Sour Bubble (ahx1)
■Superglue (SeediSm.nl)
■Taste Bud (SeediSm.nl)


Sativa Landrace strains: Landrace (Pure) Varieties
■African (Durban Poison, Swazi Red, Congolese, Malawi Gold, Angolese, Lesothan, Nigerian)
■Brazilian (Manga Rosa, Santa Maria)
■Burmese
■Cambodian
■Colombian (Columbian Red, Santa Marta Colombian Gold)
■France (reunion island: Zamal)
■Indian
■Japan (Hokkaido)
■Laotian
■Mexican (Acapulco gold, Oaxacan, Zacatecas Purple, Guerrero Gold, Michoacan)
■Nepalese
■Panama (Panama Red)
■Paraguayan
■Swaziland (Swazi Gold,Swazi Red "redbeard", Swazi)
■Thai (Juicy Fruit Thai, Chocolate Thai, Golden Triangle Thai)
■Vietnamese
■Pakistani
■Paraguayan

Sativa Developed Varieties:
■Appl
■Bambata (tikiseedbank)
■Big Mother Sativa
■Haze
■Kali Mist
■Koon Sucker
■Silver Haze
■Super Silver Haze
■Silver Sage
■PG-13

Now think of the possibilities if you take on a real deal breeding project!?!?! the options are endless......
 
Skid Mark said:
Easy deal you ask Bud Man: Just male up your CG and sex up your Paki. Remember what goes bad with breeding is Hybrid to Hybrid. As I mentioned, all one is achieving with Hybrid to Hybrid breeding is "mud puppies" it's like a box of chocolates you never know what you will get.....

Now this is simplistic but a good start. To stabilize this CG/Paki strain one really needs to grow out many selective trials. It can take many years and thousands of plants to "weed" out what traits you are looking for. Bud Man get on your tissue culture and you can avoid all this mess.....

Note: A common technique to stabilize a cannabis strain is called "cubing", in which the breeder will seek specific traits in the hybrid offspring (e.g. greater resin production, tighter node spacing, etc.) and breed said offspring with a parent plant (your favorite Landrace). The same traits are sought in the new inbred offspring, which are then again bred with the original parent plant. This process is called cubing because it usually repeated across three (or possibly more) generations before a strain can be considered at least somewhat stable.

Seed shops sell both pure strains that have specific aspects stabilized as well as unstabilized hybrids that may be of questionable quality.

Most cannabis strains used today in North America are asexually propagated Sativa strains, that were bred hydroponically to produce large amounts of "bud".

This is a really complicated and time Consuming Endeavor.

Rule of thumb for the novice breeder:

Hybrid to hybrid the worst outcome but can be fun. What ends up happening when using this method is one gets all types of Pheno and possible Hermie. This is why so many so called Breeders hit and miss with strain development. They take others work and cross Hybrid to Hybrid and send these defective strains out to you....Plus get $3-10 a bean in the mean time. You get a few good girls and you forget all about it.

Ladrace to Landrace excellent! Then build off this with hybrid development. Years back the Haze Bros. got lucky and Crossed a Columbian with Thai and holy cow they came up with "Haze," now in most strains folks smoke these days.

Hybrid to Landrace good too. May get to where you want faster.

Landrace to Hybrid another great way to get to where you want faster.

Just remember, find a good variety of Landrace you are fond of and try breeding originally with these. If you can't, that's okay just have fun and cross those Hybrids to your hearts content. Maybe you will get lucky!!!!

For you enjoyment think of the possibilities. A list of Indica Landrace.
Landrace (Pure) Varieties.
■Afghani (Lowland, Highland — Afghan kush)
■Arab
■Chinese
■Iranian
■Lebanese
■Moroccan (Kif)
■North Indian
■New Zealand Sativa
■Pakistani
■Tajikistani
■Turkish
■Uzbekistani

Indica Developed strains from Landrace: INDICA Developed Varieties
■Afghani #1
■Bella ciao
■Butterscotch Hawaiian
■Early Girl
■Kush
■Lightstorm
■Mango
■Mazar
■Northern Lights #1
■Oasis (Northern Lights #2)
■Manghani (A very resinous Mango x Afghan)
■Southern Daze
■Millennium Bud
■Mongolian
■Mother of Mercy*
■Romulan
■Alaskan Thunderfuck
■Mad Shad
■Sour Bubble (ahx1)
■Superglue (SeediSm.nl)
■Taste Bud (SeediSm.nl)


Sativa Landrace strains: Landrace (Pure) Varieties
■African (Durban Poison, Swazi Red, Congolese, Malawi Gold, Angolese, Lesothan, Nigerian)
■Brazilian (Manga Rosa, Santa Maria)
■Burmese
■Cambodian
■Colombian (Columbian Red, Santa Marta Colombian Gold)
■France (reunion island: Zamal)
■Indian
■Japan (Hokkaido)
■Laotian
■Mexican (Acapulco gold, Oaxacan, Zacatecas Purple, Guerrero Gold, Michoacan)
■Nepalese
■Panama (Panama Red)
■Paraguayan
■Swaziland (Swazi Gold,Swazi Red "redbeard", Swazi)
■Thai (Juicy Fruit Thai, Chocolate Thai, Golden Triangle Thai)
■Vietnamese
■Pakistani
■Paraguayan

Sativa Developed Varieties:
■Appl
■Bambata (tikiseedbank)
■Big Mother Sativa
■Haze
■Kali Mist
■Koon Sucker
■Silver Haze
■Super Silver Haze
■Silver Sage
■PG-13

Now think of the possibilities if you take on a real deal breeding project!?!?! the options are endless......
Click to expand...

Great info! Thanks, I did a hybrid cross of hashberryxog kush and got crap. Makes since why!! Now
 
Hash Hound said:
Doc, a root question for you.

I harvested a Kannabia - Original Berry yesterday and noticed the top half of the pot had very little roots in it and the bottom half seemed to have all the root action going on. As a matter of fact the roots seemed to hit bottom then start back up the sides of the pot. I use 4 gl square ones.

I know you use your super soil on the bottom and just soil on top right?
So even when mixing OC+ in to the soil should it all be added to the bottom half of the pot and plain dirt on top, or thoroughly mix the OC+ throughout?
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OC+ releases nutrients when water comes in contact with the prills. As the water moves downward, through the soil towards the drain holes, it brings nutrition with it.

So....if you have your OC+ on the bottom, the water only travels a couple inches and the nutrients spend less time in the soil and are concentrated at the bottom of the pot.

That creates several problems:

1.)roots above the OC+ don't get much nutrition
2.)Nitrogen leaches out more rapidly due to being closer to the drain
3.)the perched water table effect usually means the least healthy roots are the lowermost roots. This means the least healthy roots are being tasked with feeding the whole plant.

Proper use of OC+:

1.)Incorporate throughout the media if possible
2.)Next best thing, incorporate OC+ into top several inches of soil
3.)Top Dress

Putting it at the bottom is counter productive, but it will still work.....just not very well.

Also, I recommend using large pots when it comes to soil.....3 gallons at a minimum. I use mostly 7 gallons.

When I do use a 3 gallon pot, I use a wick to mitigate the Perched Water Table.

Take 10 inches or so of cheap, polypropylene rope, 3/8 is fine.
Tie a knot in the middle of the rope and feed one end out the bottom of the pot from the inside.
Stand up the end of the wick that is inside the pot by holding it up and filling dirt in around it.
Grow as usual.

The wick reduces moisture in the lower half of the pot which allows the roots to grow much better, basically making a 3 gallon pot grow like a 5 gallon. You just need to water more often.

IMG_18134.JPG

IMG_18125.JPG
 
Ty again Doc.

One more question before I take a break from class.

I harvested a Original Berry (10 wks 12/12) this Saturday which I stopped feeding last Saturday and flushed. By the way, she is probably the stickiest and resiniest plant we have grown so far.
The dirt was fairly dry, but the buds were still very wet.

Even though they haven't had water for a week, they are the most moist buds I have harvested. Some times they are dry enough to test smoke in 3 or 4 days. Two days on these and they seem wetter than when we picked them. Temps in the house are like 65 and humidity is about 45%. Also had 2 minor spots of bud rot, nothing drastic.

How soon do you stop watering before you harvest? Do you let them dry out a little first, or flush 2 or 3 days before harvest?

Pics are on the OC thread
Osmocote Plus Plant Food: Discuss Its Use With Cannabis Here!

I can not emphasize enough how much I appreciate being able to visit threads and learn from others like yourself Doc. Although mine is a small time grow compared to others, my passion for growing is as big as the next guys.
 
Hash Hound said:
Ty again Doc.

One more question before I take a break from class.

I harvested a Original Berry (10 wks 12/12) this Saturday which I stopped feeding last Saturday and flushed. By the way, she is probably the stickiest and resiniest plant we have grown so far.
The dirt was fairly dry, but the buds were still very wet.

Even though they haven't had water for a week, they are the most moist buds I have harvested. Some times they are dry enough to test smoke in 3 or 4 days. Two days on these and they seem wetter than when we picked them. Temps in the house are like 65 and humidity is about 45%. Also had 2 minor spots of bud rot, nothing drastic.

How soon do you stop watering before you harvest? Do you let them dry out a little first, or flush 2 or 3 days before harvest?

Pics are on the OC thread
Osmocote Plus Plant Food: Discuss Its Use With Cannabis Here!

I can not emphasize enough how much I appreciate being able to visit threads and learn from others like yourself Doc. Although mine is a small time grow compared to others, my passion for growing is as big as the next guys.
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I don't flush, but I do like to keep the plant well hydrated right up until harvest, so I usually do a light watering on Wednesday, if I'm going to chop on Friday. Stressing the plant via flushing is risky if you've got rot.

Now, your observation on the bud moisture brings up another thing many hobby/stoner growers overlook:

Brix

Google it! Study it! Learn how to increase Brix in your produce!

Brix is a measurement of sugars and minerals in fruits and produce. High Brix=better taste, more nutrition, disease resistance, longer shelf life, etc. It's not as simple as adding molasses or some stupid "Sweet" product at the hydro shop. (those products are nothing more than sugar and epsom salts) You need healthy, living soil to bring up the brix.

My growing style is all about maximum brix. This means:

1.)an abundant supply of calcium
2.)an abundant supply of all micronutrients and minerals
3.)quality organic matter
4.)massively healthy microbial action in the soil.

Do this and your flowers will have higher carbohydrate levels, mineral levels, weight, nutrient density, etc.

So....I suspect that your most recent harvest included a bit more care and attention to micronutes and healthy microbe cultures.....you probably dumped less salt into the pots. (nutes=salt) Subsequently, your end product was high brix!

Congrats!
 
DocBud said:
It's really hard to say what it is.....my best guess is normal senescence. You have 2 more weeks to go?

NO PROBLEM!

I'd give them a big PK spike, let the buds harden up and swell, and just don't worry! You've got more than enough green, productive leaf to see you through.

In the future, I'd consider not using both limestone and dolomite. You could be overdone on calcium, which can interfere with Mg uptake. You could also have too much magnesium, which interferes with calcium and potassium uptake......you could also have both going on at the same time!

Where did you get your soil recipe from? How did you arrive at including both limestone and dolomite?

Having said all that, I wouldn't worry. The picture you show above is a plant that is quite healthy enough to finish.
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I think you got it Doc, in my experience going just based on the photo, I have had similar issues in flower. The culprit was potassium each time for my grows. My mind always drifted to Ca/Mg issues till I learned some differences. The kicker is it will hit the lower fan leaves first and progressively get worse. You will notice early faint discolorations and spotting prior to it yellowing the edges. They will grow necrotic and die. So the issue at hand is, is it lockout or lack of. The do consume it greatly in flower. Will they make it to harvest? Most certainly.
 
SmokzAlot said:
I think you got it Doc, in my experience going just based on the photo, I have had similar issues in flower. The culprit was potassium each time for my grows. My mind always drifted to Ca/Mg issues till I learned some differences. The kicker is it will hit the lower fan leaves first and progressively get worse. You will notice early faint discolorations and spotting prior to it yellowing the edges. They will grow necrotic and die. So the issue at hand is, is it lockout or lack of. The do consume it greatly in flower. Will they make it to harvest? Most certainly.
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That's why it's so important to have a well balanced, living soil. There is no such thing as "lock out," in decent soil.

The more crap you start adding, the more things can go wrong and you really need to know what you're doing! That's why I always start off by copying someone who is successful, and then learning the science behind the success.

But organic gardening doesn't deal with such issues like lockout. Our challenges are keeping the soil alive and healthy and making sure the microbes have enough of what they want so they can make food.

There's plenty to learn!
 
Hey Doc,

Just thought I'd say :thanks: and +Reps for spending more time answering questions and helping people than you spend talking about your own garden! :thumb:

:Namaste:
 
Beat me too it Frat, but that's okay. I too will say THANK YOU Doc for sharing all your expertise. :thankyou:

I'd buy your book if you wrote one, just saying...
 
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