DobeWan's First Grow! LA Confidential & 24K Gold - LED - 3x3 - Coco

[Old TimingMan]

I think the back-building will help, how can it hurt at this stage? If you had a cola that was steady building up, then maybe not, but encouraging it to fill out below is win-win!

Is all that pearlite on top helping?

 

[DobeWan]

I think the back-building will help, how can it hurt at this stage? If you had a cola that was steady building up, then maybe not, but encouraging it to fill out below is win-win!

Is all that pearlite on top helping?

The idea with the top layer of perlite was really to address the springtails, and it does seem to be helping. I used to see them on the top layer while I was watering / handling each plant but now I only see whatever I see at runoff. The population seems much smaller as well - I have to look for them to spot them now, and only in the runoff.

It seems to help the top layer keep its shape too rather than taking on a look like a trench. I assume this helps somewhat.

I added a layer to the bottom as well which definitely seems to help with drainage and preventing a layer of water that never seems to dry at the base of the pot. I haven't noticed the sulfur smell I associate with unhealthy roots since a couple of weeks into adding H2O2 and this feels like another addition to the arsenal of preventing issues with rot and fungus. It even made potting up simple.

I'll be sticking with it I think.

 

[DobeWan]

Looking like some early signs of perhaps a P deficiency showing this morning. A few brown spots on leaves on the LA Confidential. Likeliest culprit is my flush and using non RO water - I suspect the pH crept back up in the last few days, causing problems with P being absorbed. I'll probably adjust pH down lower than usual (5.6ish) in an attempt to correct things tonight.

These LA ladies are unexpectedly touchy late in flower.

 

[DobeWan]

pH has been an issue from start to finish. More than once I've put water in at 5.8 only to have it raise by 0.5 after the fact, causing me problems.

I think I might have to get a RO solution before round 2 - I don't want something so simple causing so much havoc.

I knew this could be a problem from flushing but didn't feel like I had a lot of choice given the rapidly worsening K lockout.

I'm so close, I just went to get these ladies over the finish line and adjust for next round of flower.

 

[DobeWan]

I took some photos tonight (44F) with the iPhone but they didn't come out well at all, and I'm too lazy to go take more with the camera. So we'll have to wait until tomorrow! But a few quick updates.

LA1 - Solo cup for scale!

Saw my first amber trichome! LA's trichomes are looking far more cloudy - I think the majority are now cloudy with some still glassy. All LA2 top colas now have the dark purple / black on the leaves and top of the bud sites, which looks really cool - but will be better when I have fatter bud sites next round! :: It's feeling like I'm not far from starting flush.

LA2

LA2 has classic P deficiency signs, LA1 has a little of it, and the 24Ks have almost none of it. I put 5.55 pH'ed water, a gallon each, through the LAs and let it sit for ~10 minutes before watering normally with nutes at my usual 5.8. Figured that'd help get some of the higher pH water out. Runoff was just above 6 so I may continue to have lockout issues for another day or two. Hopefully the damage to LA2 doesn't become too great, but sadly I can see brown spots on a leaf or two on all tops, so she's pretty ugly looking! Only has to survive another couple of weeks though, and I don't mind ugly!

24K1

The 24Ks are looking pretty solid considering - not a lot of effect from the earlier K deficiency, and little sign of the current P deficiency. Still a lot of light coloured hairs, so these ladies are definitely a few weeks out.

I'm going to need a RO system before starting round 2, that has become clear.

24K2

Finally - I can't water the plants without coming out of my work room stinking. The smells are fantastic right about now - LA2 with its strong classic indica smell, and 24K with its strong smell of fresh oranges.

 

[Old TimingMan]

This first run has taught everyone here a lot, it a prime example of how not all plants are created equal, some need more than others and some need less, in Coco you can tailor those needs better once you get to know the strains.

That is why I would recommend to any new grower of this plant...Coco Coir is the way to learn.

 

[DobeWan]

This first run has taught everyone here a lot, it a prime example of how not all plants are created equal, some need more than others and some need less, in Coco you can tailor those needs better once you get to know the strains.

That is why I would recommend to any new grower of this plant...Coco Coir is the way to learn.

I'm with you there - coco has been a fantastic tool for understanding how this all works. While I've definitely had plant specific issues, it's better for me in the long run to have had plants sensitive to those issues so that I could learn! And coco gives me the platform to respond and see the effect. It sucks to see that my harvest will be impacted but it's not like I don't have another shot at these strains in the works - and a bunch more seeds for the future. It's easy for me to see the success others have and feel some frustration - but of course I follow some amazing growers and need to realize Rome wasn't built in a day! I'm just lucky to have another shot at it so quickly, for many finishing their first grow they'd have to wait for another veg period first.

 

[Lady Antheia]

Please don't be disappointed. Your first grow is amazing! I've been so impressed with your desire to learn and willingness to jump in and try new things. Your girls look great!

Yeah, I agree with you and OTM about coco as a good starting point. It is so easy to make adjustments and corrections. Just change the next feeding recipe and water your plants. Now that I have a good foundation, I'm branching out to hempy so that I don't have to water as often.

 

[DobeWan]

Please don't be disappointed. Your first grow is amazing! I've been so impressed with your desire to learn and willingness to jump in and try new things. Your girls look great!

Thanks! I'm very happy with how much I learned, I just wish I wasn't having issues now after generally having a good run on all but the LA1 until now. It makes me sad to see my plants look sad, and not really make a big dent in fixing the issues. I can't help but worry about my 24Ks too seeing how things have gone lately on the LAs. I'm the worrying type, I guess. I'll be really happy when I harvest, I just wish I could be happier now rather than concerned. I should be excited, and when I think about opening the tent the last few days, I'm hoping the damage is minimized rather than hoping the bud growth is big. I want to be excited to open the tent again.

Yeah, I agree with you and OTM about coco as a good starting point. It is so easy to make adjustments and corrections. Just change the next feeding recipe and water your plants. Now that I have a good foundation, I'm branching out to hempy so that I don't have to water as often.

Watering is definitely something for me to address in time. I love the time with my plants, I just can't afford to spend as much as I have in round 1. So I'll be looking at automation options in time. I kind of looked at it like I should get a handle on the basics, then I can look at building on the basis.

 

[DobeWan]

I need help.

LA2's P deficiency caused by excess pH level locking out P intake is spreading fast. Most of the main colas have affected leaves on the top around the cola, and most low fans are also impacted. LA1 has it but to a lesser extent. 24K doesn't appear to have it, but the leaves have noticeably lightened so I wonder if it's coming.

Flushing to stabilize pH isn't a true option - flushing put me in this position in the first place when the pH of the water in the pots climbed over the course of a few days after pouring a bunch of tap water through the plants. Reserving 3.5L per plant of stable water wasn't enough.

Best I can come up with - I put about 10L of water pHed to 5.00 through LA1, then watered with the regular flower nutes pHed to 5.6. Runoff is still above 6.0.

Any suggestions whatsoever would be much appreciated. At this rate, there won't be nitrogen left in the leaves to support my final flush.

 

[Pennywise]

Love the Kushy, they have really nice structure.

 

[Old TimingMan]

I need help.

LA2's P deficiency caused by excess pH level locking out P intake is spreading fast. Most of the main colas have affected leaves on the top around the cola, and most low fans are also impacted. LA1 has it but to a lesser extent. 24K doesn't appear to have it, but the leaves have noticeably lightened so I wonder if it's coming.

Flushing to stabilize pH isn't a true option - flushing put me in this position in the first place when the pH of the water in the pots climbed over the course of a few days after pouring a bunch of tap water through the plants. Reserving 3.5L per plant of stable water wasn't enough.

Best I can come up with - I put about 10L of water pHed to 5.00 through LA1, then watered with the regular flower nutes pHed to 5.6. Runoff is still above 6.0.

Any suggestions whatsoever would be much appreciated. At this rate, there won't be nitrogen left in the leaves to support my final flush.

I don't know what to tell you, Is there a way you can poke a hold in the bottom of your pot and stick your finger in to feel if it is slimy at the bottom? Root rot is my first guess, I am running around 800 PPM at 5.8 PH with no issues at all with the Coco gals. I am using a Microbial tea and Z7 with the mix to prevent root rot in both the Coco and RDWC.

What brand of perlite did you use? Miracle Grow brand has some added nutes to it.

 

[Pennywise]

Mix a reduced strength solution and ph to 6.0-6.2 and go with that. Make sure the solution has NPK all 3. Even in hydro NPK is taken up best at ph levels of 6.0 or higher.

 

[DobeWan]

I'm using Holiday brand horticultural perlite. Not sure of the brand I had prior to this, but it was another horticultural perlite from the hydro shop so I'd be surprised if it was a root cause of problems.

I'm also not thinking it's root rot given that I added H2O2 and haven't noticed the sulfur smell in what feels like a couple of weeks. I think I largely addressed that issue.

The bottom leaves were first affected with blotchy brown spots different from the K deficiency's yellowing. It started to appear a couple of days ago. When I took shots 2 days ago, there was 1 top cola leaf in the photo on the LA2 that I posted 2 days ago that was affected. Now, almost all are, multiple leaves per cola.

Several lower leaves are affected, and several top leaves, mostly on LA2. The others have some indication, but less with the LA1, and far less with the 24Ks.

A P deficiency is often seen late in flower due to pH imbalance from what I could find. I had pH issues in early veg when I wasn't checking my pH before watering, and it crept up over days. Last week, when I had the K deficiency coming on, I ran water through all of the plants to flush, and had to use tap water which I pHed to 5.8. I reserved 3.5L per plant of water that had been let stand and used it last. I should have pHed to much lower to be safe, knowing my pH would rise.

My runoff pH before I started tonight was around 6.2. I put water dropped to about 5.0 through all 4 plants - about 10L through the LAs and about 5L through the 24Ks, and let them stand in runoff for a while. Then I watered using 5.6 pH flower nutes, about a litre each (the roots were saturated by that point anyway). Runoff from the 5.6 feed was about 5.8 on the LAs, about 5.95 on the 24Ks.

I think this is the best I can do for now. I'll water at 5.6 for the next few days and check runoff. I just hope LA1 survives the next few days - the issue progressed extremely fast and I'm afraid of where it goes from here.

I'm really pissed off that this is jeopardizing all of my hard work. I honestly think pH has been my main thing holding me back all along -
I could never get my nuts as high as everyone else - but never expected these issues so late in the game. I'm guessing upgrading my lights so significantly sped things along too.

I go away Friday morning until Monday and I'm worried. Between work and family I'm super busy trying to get things clued up before I go and I really don't have time to get a RO system bought, installed, and water poured. I'm going to have to wing it for this weekend with what I have (I filled all buckets tonight so the water could stand a few days). But I will not attempt round 2 flower without an RO system after this experience.

 

[Pennywise]

Dobe i use tap that isnt the greatest, i ph a little higher than you are and it seems to work well.

 

[Old TimingMan]

I'm using Holiday brand horticultural perlite. Not sure of the brand I had prior to this, but it was another horticultural perlite from the hydro shop so I'd be surprised if it was a root cause of problems.

I'm also not thinking it's root rot given that I added H2O2 and haven't noticed the sulfur smell in what feels like a couple of weeks. I think I largely addressed that issue.

The bottom leaves were first affected with blotchy brown spots different from the K deficiency's yellowing. It started to appear a couple of days ago. When I took shots 2 days ago, there was 1 top cola leaf in the photo on the LA2 that I posted 2 days ago that was affected. Now, almost all are, multiple leaves per cola.

Several lower leaves are affected, and several top leaves, mostly on LA2. The others have some indication, but less with the LA1, and far less with the 24Ks.

A P deficiency is often seen late in flower due to pH imbalance from what I could find. I had pH issues in early veg when I wasn't checking my pH before watering, and it crept up over days. Last week, when I had the K deficiency coming on, I ran water through all of the plants to flush, and had to use tap water which I pHed to 5.8. I reserved 3.5L per plant of water that had been let stand and used it last. I should have pHed to much lower to be safe, knowing my pH would rise.

My runoff pH before I started tonight was around 6.2. I put water dropped to about 5.0 through all 4 plants - about 10L through the LAs and about 5L through the 24Ks, and let them stand in runoff for a while. Then I watered using 5.6 pH flower nutes, about a litre each (the roots were saturated by that point anyway). Runoff from the 5.6 feed was about 5.8 on the LAs, about 5.95 on the 24Ks.

I think this is the best I can do for now. I'll water at 5.6 for the next few days and check runoff. I just hope LA1 survives the next few days - the issue progressed extremely fast and I'm afraid of where it goes from here.

I'm really pissed off that this is jeopardizing all of my hard work. I honestly think pH has been my main thing holding me back all along -
I could never get my nuts as high as everyone else - but never expected these issues so late in the game. I'm guessing upgrading my lights so significantly sped things along too.

I go away Friday morning until Monday and I'm worried. Between work and family I'm super busy trying to get things clued up before I go and I really don't have time to get a RO system bought, installed, and water poured. I'm going to have to wing it for this weekend with what I have (I filled all buckets tonight so the water could stand a few days). But I will not attempt round 2 flower without an RO system after this experience.

Its a bad time to have it happen with the big weekend planned, and as Penny suggested raise your PH to 6.0 with reduced nutes may help...that is what Skunk Labs suggested when I was having problems with one of my RDWC gals...you know your plants better than any of us, but veg and bloom are a different combination/quantity of goodies.

Maybe the H2O2 is doing something?

 

[Pennywise]

When you get into trouble always go back to basics, eliminate as many variables as you can.

 

[DobeWan]

Does anything jump out to you about how I prep? My tap water comes out around 8. I usually let it sit for 2-3 days to be safe. If I'm adding nutes, I add them in the recommended order, then pH down to 5.8. I go Potassium Silicate, then Micro (which I've stopped using in the second half of flower), then Bloom, then H2O2. I had been starting with Epsom Salts and letting them stand for 15 minutes in the past. I had been doing the silicate at the end, but moved it to the front recently after I'd seen people say it doesn't mix well if you wait until after the GH nutes, and just swirls around in foam at the top. If I'm not adding nutes, I just pH down to 5.8. I usually see it creep up by .1/.2 after it has stood for a day or two after I pH it down. If I pH it down after initially pouring, without letting it stand first as well, it will creep up by .5+, to 6.3+ after a day or two. My nute combo is pretty common - modified "lucas formula" with added silica and H2O2, and until recently epsom salts. I recently added CalMag in a small dose, and only in 1 feeding prior to tonight (last night), so I can't see its presence being an issue.

I figure flushing meant I saturated the roots with a bunch of 5.8 water that rose to 6.3 in a few days, and then a couple of days later, I started to see the effects with a P deficiency due to the pH increase causing it to lock out.

Here are a couple of shots of the damage.

The first shot is the bottom half of LA2. The newer interior growth looks good - sad, but coloured well. Keep in mind some of this damage - the initial yellowing - was a result of the K deficiency that I was able to slow down (but not completely solve yet). But the blotchy brown damage is through about half of that bottom left fan, and the entirety of the fan in the light on the right - its ends have gotten brown and curled as well, but not like the inward burn of the K deficiency. There's another fan in the back (top left side in the photo) like it as well - blotchy brown damage with parts of the "fingers" curling up. And that's halfway up the plant. So it started at the bottom and on the top almost instantly, then crept up quickly to the middle from the bottom. This almost all came in the last 2 days - if you look at my 6/30 photo, it shows only the yellowing from the K deficiency and some initial hints of the coming P deficiency symptoms in the bottom fan in the foreground. The progress in the last day has been striking, which is why I'm worried about stopping it quickly.

If you look at the LA2 top photo I posted 2 days ago, you can see a leaf damaged by what I think is the P deficiency. There were a couple of other leaves with these early indications but you had to look closely. This is how it looks now. This is typical of the tops - they all have similar damage to some extent. This almost entirely came in the last 24-48 hours.

My hope is that dropping the pH down closer to my usual 5.8 will allow things to be absorbed correctly and nip this in the bud. I'm hoping that if I diagnosed correctly and my resolution works, I can avoid major damage to anything beyond LA2. But LA2 was already lagging and this is probably going to be the final nail in the coffin for her delivering me anything close to what I'd hoped for in yield. Now I'm just hoping I can get the course corrected and she survives!

 

[DobeWan]

Love the Kushy, they have really nice structure.

Yes! On a more positive note, Kushy is looking very much ready to go into flower. Both she and LA2 are getting bushier by the day. I had no expectations for her and I've been really impressed so far. Have you grown any Canuk Seeds before PW?

 

[Pennywise]

Looks like a couple of different things going on. Drop the H2O2 for now. Use calmag every watering. If you ph to 5.6-5.8 and goes up as high 6.3 in 2-3 days just ph it back down but 6.2-6.3 isnt too high. Dose micro and bloom as you normall do. Silica has nitrogen in it so you'll have to factor that when you feed.