Decoding The Holy Grail: Terpene & Cannabinoid Retention: Decarb to Extraction

Here's a post from a few pages back discussing saturation points. Still a bit of a mystery in my mind.

Bucudinkydow said:
a little something else to ponder, kickn.

I've seen this saturation ratio referenced on several sites but have yet to see where the data is derived. I saw a very in depth discussion using some highly technical computations breaking the ratio down from moles to a saturation point of 23.6mg/ml BUT this discussion was referencing the actual ethanol extraction capabilities rather than the ability to hold the given amount in a stable mixture.

I recollect (beware; never trust my memory!) a commercial processor explaining his method. He used 1 gal of 190 ethanol per pound of trim, generally running 3-5 lb batches at a time. After extraction he temporarily halted evaporation at 16 oz and allowed it to rest for (don't remember number) of hours and noticed no separation. When he completed evaporation, he said he had harvested 240 grams of cco. Using trim, that ratio is a bit of a stretch for me to swallow, but for the sake of argument and if my math is close to accurate, that would be about 200mg/ml (maybe?).

Ethanol seems to be miscible with most substances, possessing the properties of forming an homogeneous mixture at any proportion.

I'm wondering if this saturation ratio we're seeing isn't referring to the point at which ethanol will no longer extract cannabinoids rather than the ability to hold in homogeneous solution. In the words of a wise gentleman among us, " I never know".
Click to expand...
 
Kicknitup1 said:
Another toy to buy: OldBear, I bet a vacuum setup pulling on the mash would help.....??? thoughts? I was thinking of using one for ethanol but you need a certain type that will not let the fumes into the motor.
Click to expand...
That's what I've set up for my EtOH extractions. The chiller is filled with dry ice or liquid nitrogen to condense and reclaim the alcohol, but also to prevent alcohol contamination of the vacuum oil.
Vacuum extraction with recovery tank.

Vacuum extraction with recovery tank.

  • Media owner Rider509
  • Date added
 
This is a repost for Bluenoser.
This is what my wife is taking pluss some extra CBD that was added after this test. She is only taking about 5mg total cannabinoids at night and 2.5 in the morning. I want to have a terpene test run on the extract when I can justify the trip. It was a modified QWET extraction and ambient air dried.

I never know

SteepHill-Chris_Special-cannabinoids

SteepHill-Chris_Special-cannabinoids

  • Media owner Canyon
  • Date added
 
Canyon said:
This is a repost for Bluenoser.
This is what my wife is taking pluss some extra CBD that was added after this test. She is only taking about 5mg total cannabinoids at night and 2.5 in the morning. I want to have a terpene test run on the extract when I can justify the trip. It was a modified QWET extraction and ambient air dried.
I never know
Click to expand...
With the oil already at 5.2/0.42 CBD/THC and then the additional CBD in the mix, is the THC there primarily for the entourage effect?
 
Shed,
The oil as tested had the concentrations listed in the 'Compound Profile' column. The 'Decarboxylated Values' column is a computed value that the carrier oil would have if it was all decarboxylated. The extracted concentrate was about 71% cannabinoids. CBDA is the main ingredient. I wanted a higher concentration of CBD. The easeist way was to add it as an isolate to the carrier oil.

Yes, the THC is there for the entourage effect. It is intentionally small because my wife does not want a continuous high from the THC. The idea was to get as much of a mix of cannabinoids as I could with a focus on the acids. She is responding rather well after about 6 weeks, more sleep, less anxiety, improved motivation. There is most likely better combinations to use as well as different combinations for specific needs.

All I can say is that I did not expect as positive of a result from such low dosing.

I never know
 
Canyon said:
Shed,
The oil as tested had the concentrations listed in the 'Compound Profile' column. The 'Decarboxylated Values' column is a computed value that the carrier oil would have if it was all decarboxylated. The extracted concentrate was about 71% cannabinoids. CBDA is the main ingredient. I wanted a higher concentration of CBD. The easeist way was to add it as an isolate to the carrier oil.
Yes, the THC is there for the entourage effect. It is intentionally small because my wife does not want a continuous high from the THC. The idea was to get as much of a mix of cannabinoids as I could with a focus on the acids. She is responding rather well after about 6 weeks, more sleep, less anxiety, improved motivation. There is most likely better combinations to use as well as different combinations for specific needs.
All I can say is that I did not expect as positive of a result from such low dosing.
I never know
Click to expand...
Thanks Canyon!
 
Canyon said:
Shed,
The oil as tested had the concentrations listed in the 'Compound Profile' column. The 'Decarboxylated Values' column is a computed value that the carrier oil would have if it was all decarboxylated. The extracted concentrate was about 71% cannabinoids. CBDA is the main ingredient. I wanted a higher concentration of CBD. The easeist way was to add it as an isolate to the carrier oil.

Yes, the THC is there for the entourage effect. It is intentionally small because my wife does not want a continuous high from the THC. The idea was to get as much of a mix of cannabinoids as I could with a focus on the acids. She is responding rather well after about 6 weeks, more sleep, less anxiety, improved motivation. There is most likely better combinations to use as well as different combinations for specific needs.

All I can say is that I did not expect as positive of a result from such low dosing.

I never know
Click to expand...
I have so much to learn!
 
OMG, @Bucudinkydow! Your name finally clicked! LMAO. My only excuse for not seeing it right away is that I might have had my tinfoil beanie on a little too tight.
edit: or it could be that I'm old AF and the synaptic connections are suffering a bit of corrosion, lol
 
Anyone have experience with decarbing a still liquid EtOH mixture under pressure? I'm trying to avoid having to decarb the flower due to the smell. It seems like it'd be possible to decarb in an autoclave in a sealed container using the liquid cycle. I just had another autoclave given to me, along with a Harvey Chemiclave.
tuttnauer-ez10-autoclave-steam-sterilizer.jpg

tuttnauer-ez10-autoclave-steam-sterilizer.jpg

  • Media owner Rider509
  • Date added
 
Rider509 said:
Anyone have experience with decarbing a still liquid EtOH mixture under pressure? I'm trying to avoid having to decarb the flower due to the smell. It seems like it'd be possible to decarb in an autoclave in a sealed container using the liquid cycle. I just had another autoclave given to me, along with a Harvey Chemiclave.
tuttnauer-ez10-autoclave-steam-sterilizer.jpg

tuttnauer-ez10-autoclave-steam-sterilizer.jpg

  • Media owner Rider509
  • Date added
Click to expand...

Rider, I know nothing about autoclaves. I found this at one of the lookup places on the net.

"Under these conditions, steam at a pressure about 15 psi; attaining temperature (121oC) will kill all organisms and their endospores in about 15 minutes."

If you seal up your tincture in a chamber, any pressure from the autoclave would not effect the material in the chamber.

The sealed chamber work I did was with dry flowers. Somewhere back in this thread I posted the time, temperature and pressers in a chart. It was a rather crude setup, however I did document what I did. You may get some ideas. The best I can remember I was getting around 37psi at 140f with 20g of dry flowers in a 330ml chamber. Depending on the run, when it cooled I had pressures of 4-7psi. 4-7psi was higher than the math if you are only accounting for the CO2 alone. It could be water vapor or some of the lighter volatiles or who knows what. The weight loss was a little more than I expected.

How would the alcohol act alone? I don't understand vapor pressures well enough to know? Is there a way to check the chamber pressure?

What are/would you use for a chamber to hold the oil? What I have been using is a 3 inch pipe nipple with end caps and a pressure gauge in a doubble oil bath, very crude.

You have far better toys than I do. Most of mine are 50+ years old.

Would you please stick around.

This is one of the tests from what I did. The max temperature was the lower temperature of two runs. Both had were close to each other. Note that the CBDA conversion was only about 24%. The inside temperature was probably lower than I thought at the time. Another note, with the low percentage of decarb, the ending pressure would be even lower than the math for a complete decarb.
I never know
SteepHill-Thunderstruck_2nd_Decarb-cannabinoids

SteepHill-Thunderstruck_2nd_Decarb-cannabinoids

  • Media owner Canyon
  • Date added
 
After running the numbers I don't see it working unless a pressure-rated container was used. I don't think I'd like to try it with a glass Ball jar. Pure EtOH boils at 78.3C at sea level. A steam-clave liquid cycle is typically 250F/121C at 15psi/775.7Torr. At 15psi above atmospheric pressure the boiling point of pure EtOH is 98.1C. So at decarb temps of 121C the alcohol will be boiling violently in an unsealed container. If I get stupid this weekend I may try it with a Ball jar and just alcohol, outside away from flammables. At worst the jar will break and the escaping gases will ignite. Less troublesome would be the jar breaking and making a mess in the autoclave. At best, the jar doesn't break and it works. But then the addition of the extract throws another wrench in the works because decarboxylating releases CO2 which will increase the pressure inside the vessel. Damn.
Or... I could decarb the flowers late at night when the neighbors are (hopefully) sleeping.
 
Canyon said:
If you seal up your tincture in a chamber, any pressure from the autoclave would not effect the material in the chamber.

How would the alcohol act alone? I don't understand vapor pressures well enough to know? Is there a way to check the chamber pressure?
Click to expand...
Canyon, I'm right there with you. I know just enough to be dangerous. Initially I thought that an open jar exposed to the higher pressures might prevent the alcohol from boiling. Not so. With a sealed jar the steam pressure would at least offset the internal jar pressure. Would it be enough to prevent the jar or lid from failing? I don't know. And I doubt Ball has published specs on pressure failure rates.
If a pressure transducer could be sourced with very thin wires it could be passed through the door seal and monitored, but my fear is that we'd just be determining those pressure failure rates. It'd be nice to have a temp transducer inside the jar to ensure proper decarb temps and time, assuming the jar didn't fail. If you were getting 37psi at 140F I'd hate to think what the pressures would be at 240F. I need to do some studying on vapor pressures.
Then again, sometimes you just have to do the experiment and let empirical evidence be your teacher.
 
"Or... I could decarb the flowers late at night when the neighbors are (hopefully) sleeping."

Or decarb in a sealed container and avoid the smell altogether. Make sure you have a new lid to avoid leaks. When I first open the jar after it lives in the freezer for a while, it does have a horrible smell but not at all discernible as cannabis; more like a really raunchy fart left in a closed car on a hot summer day! I've learned to take it outside when I crack the jar and it dissipates quickly.
 
Rider509 said:
Canyon, I'm right there with you. I know just enough to be dangerous. Initially I thought that an open jar exposed to the higher pressures might prevent the alcohol from boiling. Not so. With a sealed jar the steam pressure would at least offset the internal jar pressure. Would it be enough to prevent the jar or lid from failing? I don't know. And I doubt Ball has published specs on pressure failure rates.
If a pressure transducer could be sourced with very thin wires it could be passed through the door seal and monitored, but my fear is that we'd just be determining those pressure failure rates. It'd be nice to have a temp transducer inside the jar to ensure proper decarb temps and time, assuming the jar didn't fail. If you were getting 37psi at 140F I'd hate to think what the pressures would be at 240F. I need to do some studying on vapor pressures.
Then again, sometimes you just have to do the experiment and let empirical evidence be your teacher.
Click to expand...

This may save you some time. This calculator has the most options to convert to different measures that I have found. Near the bottom of the page there are links for other gas law calculators.
Ideal gas law calculator
Warning: Even skipping the math, I found it confusing.

I never know
 
The vapor pressure of EtOH at 121C is 49.5psi. The offset pressure would be 34.5psi. I see no reason why a Ball canning jar wouldn't remain intact at that internal pressure. Time to break out the pump and rig up a test.

edit: I'm going to install a Schrader valve in the lid, enclose the 1 gallon jar in a bag to capture the shrapnel, and test to failure. Any guesses how much pressure it'll take and whether the lid or glass fails first?
 
Canyon said:
This may save you some time. This calculator has the most options to convert to different measures that I have found. Near the bottom of the page there are links for other gas law calculators.
Ideal gas law calculator
Warning: Even skipping the math, I found it confusing.

I never know
Click to expand...
Ha! That would have been easier! I used the Clausius-Clapeyron equation:
ln(P2/P1)=ΔHvapR(1/T1–1/T2) given the knowns.
I tried doing it on my phone then gave up and dug out my ancient HP15C. I think math in Reverse Polish Notation.
 
Back
Top Bottom