Cannabis Oil Users Cafe & Lounge

[94xjjohn]

re: Cannabis Oil Users Cafe & Lounge

Thought I would post this info John found on ISO here as well. Excellent information:
I'll be testing some of this stuff for sure. Guess it's time to get the hydrometer. LOL

The article also distinguishes between ethyl alcohol and isopropyl alcohol (isopropanol). It says the difference is the iso alcohol is toxic.
We (I) need an alcohol 101 college course. Be right back.

 

[Radogast]

re: Cannabis Oil Users Cafe & Lounge

BEWARE: This is a rant.

They call it "denatured" alcohol, but it is really "poisoned" alcohol which was deliberately made toxic by the US government in the alcohol prohibition era. For some insane reason, this is still done and still a legal requirement. Recently, some denatured alcohol is no longer fatal, just very distasteful, but I find the whole idea of selling poisoned alcohol morally corrupt. If I put out poison for my neighbor's dog, it would be a crime. If my neighbor ate the poison, it would be a felony. But when the government ... anyway.

Government mandated poisoned alcohol in pharmacies strikes me as a crime against humanity.

 

[94xjjohn]

re: Cannabis Oil Users Cafe & Lounge

Is this right?:

Denatured alcohol is poisoned "natural" (ethyl) alcohol. We can probably distill purer, if we have to.

Isopropyl alcohol is toxic (poisonous) from the get go. Doesn't sound good, yet.

Rubbing alcohol can be either. Yep.

And here's one your grandma didn't tell you....rubbing alcohol is toxic to human skin. Cannafanny...not for topicals.

Day two of alcohol 101 starts soon.

 

[circuit]

re: Cannabis Oil Users Cafe & Lounge

Be careful with poisonous stuff, words to live by, personally would never ingest anything made with iso. I use iso to clean and sanitize surfaces, but even if I clean a bong with iso, it needs to rinsed with clear water, in order to wash away the poison. Check it out yourself, the smell test. We, us humans, have fragile genes. Breaking certain genes causes cancer tumors to develop. Being careful with our genes is now looking like a good idea.

 

[SweetSue]

re: Cannabis Oil Users Cafe & Lounge

Where's the information about the supposed toxicity of 99% ISO coming from? Seriously guys, I want to see the data. What I'm uncovering is a long, long list of people who have no hesitation in using this grade of ISO. If you drink or ingest 8 ounces of it, yes, it's toxic, but the reality of the situation is that the process of purging the solvent from the oil should make this a non issue.

It's all well and good to jump on this bandwagon when you have a better alternative available, but in a significant number of areas of the world this is the best possible option available, and here we are telling those people it's absolutely off the table.

Please, someone show me or point me to the data that backs up these claims of toxicity, because I've spent a better part of my day searching for it and all I'm finding is people being cured by CCO processed with this solvent, with no documentation of anything negative. One of our own members has bravely stepped into this fray to share his own success using ISO. Something doesn't feel right to me here.

We also have the new factor of the distillers to consider. If it's possible to purify this solvent and make it safe to use then we have the potential to make life a brighter place for those for whom ISO is their only decent option. I'm resistant to the scare tactics. Show me the proof.

 

[Lady Cannafan]

re: Cannabis Oil Users Cafe & Lounge

Sue,
Please keep in mind this is just MY opinion in regards to how I feel about using this in my own case, based on what has been provided and what I've read the last couple of days.

The part that I'm struggling with the most here is what cannot be purged from the oil or during the distilling process. The purposeful addition of contaminants/poison (yes, Radogast was absolutely correct on that) that might not boil out of the process, as it states below "hard to separate toxic substances" scares me. This suggests to me they added it in such a way that the home user or distiller cannot remove it with standard methods.

I, personally, don't want to take a chance. I know there are people who use it, and testimonies of that, but the more I see and read...the more I don't feel I can do this without worrying what long term effect it's going to have on me or someone I love, especially for the diabetics out there.

I've suffered many long term effects from pharma medications due to the unavailability of proper information to the public, as well as the big pharma only listing the side effects they deemed worth mentioning or was required by law. I have red flags here waving at me wildly, which I didn't have on the meds.

I'm trying to fix things in my body, not add more issues that may show up later. Sure, it may cure what I'm using it for right now, but at what expense of something new developing later due to the slow build up of toxins and contaminants? I have found nothing that can answer that with absolutes that it won't happen, if the documentation is out there... someone please show it to us.

I've gone back and forth like a ping pong ball with this the last couple of days, as you well know, but in the end.... It is just too questionable, so I'm going to stay on the side of caution and safety for me and my loved ones.
I'm not going to attempt to tell anyone else this is absolutely a "Don't do", they need to read up and do their due diligence to make their own decisions.


Thanks John.

If we're doing Alcohol 101, might as well start with what the basic differences are in Alcohol. LOL

What is the difference between alcohol, Ethanol, denatured alcohol, rubbing alcohol, methanol and isopropyl alcohol?

Good question – What is the difference between alcohol, Ethanol, denatured alcohol, rubbing alcohol, methanol and isopropyl alcohol? | BrainStuff

And a Denatured Alcohol information sheet from a chemical company stating toxicity:

DENATURED ALCOHOL (TOXIC) | CAMEO Chemicals | NOAA

One line from the above link:

General Description
A clear colorless liquid with a characteristic odor. Consists of ethanol deliberately rendered toxic by the addition of hard-to-separate toxic substances. Less dense than water. Vapors heavier than air. Used as a fuel, solvent, antifreeze, and to make other chemicals.

Another little Tidbit I found in regards to using it in bath items:

By Anne Marie Helmenstine, Ph.D.

Updated December 04, 2014.
I've been asked that question often, so here's the answer: Denatured alcohol is ethanol (ethyl alcohol) that has been made unfit for human consumption by adding another chemical to it. Denaturing refers to removing a property from the alcohol (being able to drink it), not to chemically altering or decomposing it.
There are hundreds of ways ethanol is denatured. Denatured alcohol that is intended for use as a fuel or solvent typically contains 5% or more methanol.

Methanol is flammable and has a boiling point close to that of ethanol. Denatured alcohol for use in cosmetics often contains water and a bittering agent (Bitrex or Aversion which are denatonium benzoate or denatonium saccharide), but other chemicals are sometimes used. Other common additives include (but are not limited to) isopropanol, methyl ethyl Methanol is absorbed across the skin and is highly toxic, so when I recommend people not use denatured alcohol for making perfume or bath products, my reason is that you usually don't know what has been added to the ethanol. ketone, methyl isobutyl ketone, pyridine, benzene, diethyl phthalate, and naphtha.

I also have this new book about cremes and spa items, I will be looking through that this morning to see if the author quotes anything about that subject for making the oil/topicals. I'll post anything I find significant.

Right now everything I'm doing is with the oil made with Everclear.

 

[Dennise]

re: Cannabis Oil Users Cafe & Lounge

Does anyone notice the word keytone in all of that.... If you toxify yourself with this you can cause a condition called ketoacidosis... It causes your body to be more acidic than it should be... The normal pH of the body is 7.4 and a very minimal deviation from that will and can cause death... It is much more prevalent in type 1 Diabetics and I personally have been in DKA more than once... It's a trip to ICU and I can assure you there is no fun involved... The government did do this on purpose and I personally would rather try and improve the proof of my solvent vs using one that I have any question that might be harmful... That just simply defeats the purpose of all of this....

 

[Dennise]

re: Cannabis Oil Users Cafe & Lounge

I also want to say if you choose to use this that is your business but please be careful what you post up here for others to read.... You are being told this can be very dangerous and if you choose to ignore this warning so be it... But please post your comment responsibly.....

 

[Lady Cannafan]

re: Cannabis Oil Users Cafe & Lounge

Does anyone notice the word keytone in all of that.... If you toxify yourself with this you can cause a condition called ketoacidosis... It causes your body to be more acidic than it should be... The normal pH of the body is 7.4 and a very minimal deviation from that will and can cause death... It is much more prevalent in type 1 Diabetics and I personally have been in DKA more than once... It's a trip to ICU and I can assure you there is no fun involved... The government did do this on purpose and I personally would rather try and improve the proof of my solvent vs using one that I have any question that might be harmful... That just simply defeats the purpose of all of this....

Yep, I touched on that as well with this post on the Making Oil thread:

How To Make Concentrated Cannabis Oil

Thank you Dennise, personal experience is incredibly helpful on this.

 

[94xjjohn]

re: Cannabis Oil Users Cafe & Lounge

SweetSue, be as resistant as you like, the proof you need is everywhere.

They poison it on purpose...what the hell proof do you need beyond that???????????????????????????????

Bottom line...if you have cancer or another life threatening illness, and it's ALL you have...use it. It obviously won't kill you right away. "People use it all the time." Think thalidomide. People used it regularly until they found out about how dangerous it was.
If you can't find how toxic it is...you're not trying very hard.

 

[Lady Cannafan]

re: Cannabis Oil Users Cafe & Lounge

Here's some more:

ISO is listed on the Right to Know Hazardous Substance List, because it is cited by OSHA, ACGIH, DOT, NIOSH, DEP, IARC, NFPA, and EPA. It is on the Special Health Hazard Substance List.

Helluva list there.....

Here's some more reading:

https://nj.gov/health/eoh/rtkweb/documents/fs/1076.pdf

 

[SweetSue]

re: Cannabis Oil Users Cafe & Lounge

Thank you for the response guys. I'm busy right now and can't research all this right now, but I'll take the time to follow through later.

Dennise, I see nothing wrong with open debate. I have no desire to stir up controversy or promote unsafe practices. I assure you my intentions are to promote safety in this process at every turn.

 

[circuit]

re: Cannabis Oil Users Cafe & Lounge

The quest for a safe solvent to extract cannabis oil has led to many discussions in forums like this. Typically they end with disagreement and conflict, sometimes referred to as "solvent wars". My research has led me to the conclusion that there is no safe way to perform this type of extraction with iso, at least the 'adulterated' type (the only kind) available in the US. There are people who claim to be able to remove the toxic chemicals, (purging) but I have never seen that process explained in a way that made sense regarding iso. And no, I cannot accept that the benefits of consuming the oil outweigh the toxicity of oil made with iso, that is plain crazy, especially when talking about giving it to a sick person. Please use caution around this stuff. There are people blasting butane to make edible oil, another bad idea for the at home maker, because a lot of the 'tane remains, that can be removed by using an expensive heated vacuum oven, but why? Why would anyone want to use butane to extract an edible oil? The whole plant extract is where the most curative compounds are, so a safe removal and extraction of those compounds is the best way to make edible cannabis oil.

This all seems obvious to me, but there are other opinions for sure. If you think that you can make a safe extraction by using toxic solvents, well good for you, but please do not give it to anyone else. I am not an expert or a chemist, but I have a fair amount of common sense. Rule #1 when playing with this stuff is to do no harm.

I have seen many posts from people who complain that cannabis oil made them vomit and feel sick. That would be expected if you managed to get any iso into your body, the additive is specifically put in it to do that. Several of those people mentioned that iso was used to make the oil. Before jumping on with your proof positive that it is safe, please take a step back and look at the discussion. Our judgement can be clouded by habit and the drive to make a living, which is the type reactions that I keep seeing when this gets brought up, people who have been using iso for years, ethanol isn't available... To me these are BS excuses, brought up by people either too lazy to figure out a better way or people who are so in love with their profits, that they lose sight. If you would like to defend using toxic solvents by engaging in an online argument, please start up a new thread and go for it.

Organic alcohol is available pretty much everywhere, you have it shipped.

 

[SweetSue]

re: Cannabis Oil Users Cafe & Lounge

I live in a state that restricts the shipping of alcohol into the state, so shipping is not an option circuit. I'm looking into whether anything is added to the 99% ISO in the US. This is not denatured alcohol. I'm waiting on a call back from a biochemist and my personal pharmacist. At this point what I've found is that 99% is sold from behind the counter and has no additives. I'm still searching for trustworthy confirmation on this though.

Again, I have no desire to introduce toxicity into my meds or meds meant for anyone else.

 

[Lady Cannafan]

re: Cannabis Oil Users Cafe & Lounge

Thank you circuit.

Thank goodness we are a more mature group of people on this site and can stay away from "wars".

 

[Dennise]

re: Cannabis Oil Users Cafe & Lounge

The quest for a safe solvent to extract cannabis oil has led to many discussions in forums like this. Typically they end with disagreement and conflict, sometimes referred to as "solvent wars". My research has led me to the conclusion that there is no safe way to perform this type of extraction with iso, at least the 'adulterated' type (the only kind) available in the US. There are people who claim to be able to remove the toxic chemicals, (purging) but I have never seen that process explained in a way that made sense regarding iso. And no, I cannot accept that the benefits of consuming the oil outweigh the toxicity of oil made with iso, that is plain crazy, especially when talking about giving it to a sick person. Please use caution around this stuff. There are people blasting butane to make edible oil, another bad idea for the at home maker, because a lot of the 'tane remains, that can be removed by using an expensive heated vacuum oven, but why? Why would anyone want to use butane to extract an edible oil? The whole plant extract is where the most curative compounds are, so a safe removal and extraction of those compounds is the best way to make edible cannabis oil.

This all seems obvious to me, but there are other opinions for sure. If you think that you can make a safe extraction by using toxic solvents, well good for you, but please do not give it to anyone else. I am not an expert or a chemist, but I have a fair amount of common sense. Rule #1 when playing with this stuff is to do no harm.

I have seen many posts from people who complain that cannabis oil made them vomit and feel sick. That would be expected if you managed to get any iso into your body, the additive is specifically put in it to do that. Several of those people mentioned that iso was used to make the oil. Before jumping on with your proof positive that it is safe, please take a step back and look at the discussion. Our judgement can be clouded by habit and the drive to make a living, which is the type reactions that I keep seeing when this gets brought up, people who have been using iso for years, ethanol isn't available... To me these are BS excuses, brought up by people either too lazy to figure out a better way or people who are so in love with their profits, that they lose sight. If you would like to defend using toxic solvents by engaging in an online argument, please start up a new thread and go for it.

Organic alcohol is available pretty much everywhere, you have it shipped.

Without question and without any further mention needed... You are absolutely correct in this matter... I have a degree in nursing and health sciences and the very first thing we are taught... is do no harm.... and literally all we are talking about here is a bit more time to allow the water at the end of the process to cook off... Time is in no way toxic and I have plenty of time to allow for a safe end product.... Thank you very much for your post.......

 

[Lady Cannafan]

re: Cannabis Oil Users Cafe & Lounge

I live in a state that restricts the shipping of alcohol into the state, so shipping is not an option circuit. I'm looking into whether anything is added to the 99% ISO in the US. This is not denatured alcohol. I'm waiting on a call back from a biochemist and my personal pharmacist. At this point what I've found is that 99% is sold from behind the counter and has no additives. I'm still searching for trustworthy confirmation on this though.

Again, I have no desire to introduce toxicity into my meds or meds meant for anyone else.

Hi Sue,

I just read that there are additives by the U.S.

Rubbing Alcohol in the US

In the United States, rubbing alcohol made using ethanol must conform to Formula 23-H, which specifies it consists of 100 parts by volume of ethyl alcohol, 8 parts by volume of acetone and 1.5 parts by volume of methyl isobutyl ketone (MSDS sheet). The remainder of the composition includes water and denaturants and may include colorants and perfume oils.

Rubbing alcohol made using isopropanol is regulated to contains at least 355 mg of sucrose octaacetate (MSDS sheet) and 1.40 mg of denatonium benzoate per 100 ml volume. Isopropyl rubbing alcohol also contains water, stabilizer and may contain colorants.

Rubbing Alcohol Toxicity

Thus, all rubbing alcohol manufactured in the US is toxic to ingest, inhale or apply to your skin. In fact, if you read the product label, you'll see there is a warning against most of the common uses of rubbing alcohol.

 

[circuit]

re: Cannabis Oil Users Cafe & Lounge

I apologize if my post comes across as rude, that is not my intention. As a survivor of several solvent wars, the topic has been beaten to a pulp and, in my mind, is resolved with the conclusion that for people who make the oil at home, ethanol, Everclear, organic alcohol, food grade alcohol, is the best, safest and most practical solvent. If you are in the cannabis oil business to make a profit, there are better ways to go about this, especially if you don't mind a little poison in your oil. If this symbol is on your solvent, it is the wrong one to use for edible oil.

 

[wildjim]

re: Cannabis Oil Users Cafe & Lounge

When we consider distilling, there are very important factors to consider. One, is the boiling point of all of the added chemicals. If the boiling point of those chemicals is never reached during distilling, the chemicals will be left in the bottom of the distiller with the oil mixture waiting to evaporate what is left of the alcohol and water. That doesn't mean the bad stuff will evaporate along with the alcohol. It will be in the CCO and will also be concentrated when the alcohol is removed by the distillation. Anyone that has used the distiller to distill water knows what is left in the bottom. When the added chemicals are concentrated by distilling and removing their carrier, it must be safe to assume the patient is receiving more than a minimal amount of those adulterants.



WJ

 

[Lady Cannafan]

re: Cannabis Oil Users Cafe & Lounge

Okay, I'm going for it! I have all of these jars of mint soaking in vodka to try to make mint extract. I don't like how it smells, kind of minty but more alcohol than anything.
SO.....I'm going to run this through the distiller and see what I get. ;-) Under the exhaust hood, of course.