Building A Better Soil: Demonstrations & Discussions Of Organic Soil Recipes

TheMadDabber said:
Meh he's okay... van the man, van the man!

Hey so I've been waiting for this thread to pop up....

So @Blew Hiller hooked me up with some worms and I started a vermi-compost. My plan is to create a self-sustainable medium recycler.

Van was helping me understand some stuff in blew journal about building a soil.

Initially my plan was to try the hi brix "kit" and I probably still will but I'm kinda a do it myself person who really wants to understand the science behind it all.

Anyways, the thing I hear most is how soil is harder than most people expect. I feel like I'm just really learning coco after starting with coco hempy, but I really like to try everything and feel like it helps me learn more.

I guess my concern is... i.... don't Ph now. I know don't judge me. But is that something I'll need to do regardless of whether I choose a water only soil or an organic type nutrient
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For someone growing with living organic soil the kit will be disconcerting. The medium doesn’t support worms. Think of what that means.

The kit keeps the micro herd going with the drenches, but it’s such a fine line that I don’t consider it on the same plane as LOS.

Just a heads up for those thinking of the change. You grow sweet produce with Doc’s method, but it’s a different energy than you get with LOS.
 
Van Stank said:
Thats really a good description of me as well...someone that likes to do it himself. I have been asked a few times by some folks that use Docs kit as to why I don't just use the kit, "it will be easier".

For me its not the destination, it's the journey. I love to tinker with the soil and learn more and more about it and how everything works. Having been a gardener for years prior to starting to grow Cannabis was a huge help. Now learning how to grow good cannabis is making me a much better gardener in the other areas! Ain't dirt cool!
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Hey, speaking of growing other plants, what would you suggest I plant into this mix I made to see if it's good for cannabis? Was thinking tomatoes since everyone seems to say those are pretty alike.

As for Doc's kit, it's just never been appealing to me because I don't like the idea of having to buy/ship a big "kit" of stuff, and then on top of that need to mix up soil anyway. Figured I had to mix up soil, I might as well just get stuff to put into the soil, and get what I can locally too. I mean I know everyone praises how much better the bud will be and all that, but for $100 plus what you gotta spend on the soil material to put it all in, it just seemed iike another method that was too expensive for me to really try.
 
Hell why not try a cannabis plant?? Thats the best determination! Your coffers are still pretty full from your harvest I assume. If you can deal with the train possibly coming off the tracks a bit early, why not put it straight to the test.

In absence of a cannabis plant, I would probably say maters are a good fill in. Calcium issues will show up on end rot. But again, I say test what you intend to grow in it. Hell throw one of them Stank Genetics seeds in there and see what it does. No shortage of them if it don't work out!
 
Van Stank said:
Hell why not try a cannabis plant?? Thats the best determination! Your coffers are still pretty full from your harvest I assume. If you can deal with the train possibly coming off the tracks a bit early, why not put it straight to the test.

In absence of a cannabis plant, I would probably say maters are a good fill in. Calcium issues will show up on end rot. But again, I say test what you intend to grow in it. Hell throw one of them Stank Genetics seeds in there and see what it does. No shortage of them if it don't work out!
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Eh, limits, both tents in 11/13, and too cold to find a place to put them outside somewhere. I have a grower buddy who has a backroom he hardens clones off in, but it's unheated so I think even that is too cold for them right now. I'm honestly not even sure where I'd put the tomatoes.

I basically just wanted to plant something in it to make sure it didn't nuke seedlings. I'm fairly confident it has enough nutrients, just worried that it may have too much. Not to mention I'd like to see any problems with pH ahead of time.

The last soil test I got kind of disappointed me because it didn't show nitrogen. I'm thinking about trying one of those Soil Savvy kits instead, but I figure throwing some cheap tomato seeds in there to see if it nukes them would be a far cheaper way to see if it's too rich.
 
Throw the mater on the window ledge! Thats where I keep my Mango tree, my rosemary plant, my two pineapple plants and my dwarf lemon tree (its like a nook window so the ledge is like a foot deep)
 
Van Stank said:
Throw the mater on the window ledge! Thats where I keep my Mango tree, my rosemary plant, my two pineapple plants and my dwarf lemon tree (its like a nook window so the ledge is like a foot deep)
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Well when I say a CFL, I actually mean one of those big 100 watt ones, so it's pretty decent lightwise, but would the window sil keep them warmer? I have a heating mat I was gonna try to put them under too, but I mean, that's not really going to produce much heat for the rest of the plant once it starts growing.
 
The heating mat will help keep the roots warmer. If you are inside, the maters will be fine for another month before its warmer there.
 
Evening everybody, time to stop lurking and start learning and putting into practice, I've been following this thread since last year quietly taking notes and general lurking on most likely everyone's journal that contributes to this thread....

I have so many things I want to ask about LOS. I've been attempting to grow my meds as I have a back issue which some of you might know ( have a squizz at my journal if I haven't made your aquaintance yet as more knowledge more power )

So let's start with what I have in regards to soil using what I have available in south africa....

200ml mycoroot - liquid version of mycorrhizal I'm assuming.
200g dolomite lime ( lots of differing opinions on its use )
2.2kg of kelp meal ( farmers trading )
1kg rock phosphate
1kg turbo grow rock dust
I will be ordering coco coir as that is mentioned through out most of the recipes I've been examining/ scrutinizing to see what I can use availability wise.
I can get palm-peat as a local supply but also found mixed reviews on the use of it in a LOS soil due to the water retention capabilities.
Fresh aloe I have in abundance to use as a " wetting/adherence agent " if my memory serves me correct.

I do have access to 50kg ewc from my understanding which is a % of the mix, serves a purpose as it is humous based and nutrient rich from the wriggly guys. Compost of my own is in the process of being achieved but won't benefit till next spring ( going into winter )
I can get organic bagged compost but I've found it not cooked enough and lost a plant or 3 due to that.

Unfortunately when I purchased those amendments last year in those quantities I believed it was a pinch of this and a drop of that to " feed the soil and not the plant " needless to say that version of soil didn't quite work out....

Alfalfa which I searched low/high for and couldn't find it, is actually " Lucerne as it known here " so I've had under my nose but didn't understand what it was .....lol

I'm even willing to eat prawns and crabs and such for the chitin and chitinese it contains
So due to the medical vacation I'm forced to take, I would greatly appreciate any and all advice your fine minds may contain in helping me achieve my goal in being self-sufficient in growing my meds...

I have the cement and mortar and hopefully you guys will help out with the building blocks....

apologies bout the long explanation but have to ask for help as my family's behind me all the way, it's just they already panicky over my doc visit this morning and panic stations are rising and don't want them worried more than need be. I've come to terms with myself about my back problems so ready to conquer the soil world with you fine folk....:thanks:
 
Van Stank said:
The heating mat will help keep the roots warmer. If you are inside, the maters will be fine for another month before its warmer there.
Click to expand...

Sweet. I think I'll feel better trying it out on tomatoes just to make sure it won't nuke seedlings before trying anything else. But I do have a mind for trying that ATF in it!

Smeegol said:
Evening everybody, time to stop lurking and start learning and putting into practice, I've been following this thread since last year quietly taking notes and general lurking on most likely everyone's journal that contributes to this thread....

I have so many things I want to ask about LOS. I've been attempting to grow my meds as I have a back issue which some of you might know ( have a squizz at my journal if I haven't made your aquaintance yet as more knowledge more power )

So let's start with what I have in regards to soil using what I have available in south africa....

200ml mycoroot - liquid version of mycorrhizal I'm assuming.
200g dolomite lime ( lots of differing opinions on its use )
2.2kg of kelp meal ( farmers trading )
1kg rock phosphate
1kg turbo grow rock dust
I will be ordering coco coir as that is mentioned through out most of the recipes I've been examining/ scrutinizing to see what I can use availability wise.
I can get palm-peat as a local supply but also found mixed reviews on the use of it in a LOS soil due to the water retention capabilities.
Fresh aloe I have in abundance to use as a " wetting/adherence agent " if my memory serves me correct.

I do have access to 50kg ewc from my understanding which is a % of the mix, serves a purpose as it is humous based and nutrient rich from the wriggly guys. Compost of my own is in the process of being achieved but won't benefit till next spring ( going into winter )
I can get organic bagged compost but I've found it not cooked enough and lost a plant or 3 due to that.

Unfortunately when I purchased those amendments last year in those quantities I believed it was a pinch of this and a drop of that to " feed the soil and not the plant " needless to say that version of soil didn't quite work out....

Alfalfa which I searched low/high for and couldn't find it, is actually " Lucerne as it known here " so I've had under my nose but didn't understand what it was .....lol

I'm even willing to eat prawns and crabs and such for the chitin and chitinese it contains
So due to the medical vacation I'm forced to take, I would greatly appreciate any and all advice your fine minds may contain in helping me achieve my goal in being self-sufficient in growing my meds...

I have the cement and mortar and hopefully you guys will help out with the building blocks....

apologies bout the long explanation but have to ask for help as my family's behind me all the way, it's just they already panicky over my doc visit this morning and panic stations are rising and don't want them worried more than need be. I've come to terms with myself about my back problems so ready to conquer the soil world with you fine folk....:thanks:
Click to expand...

Peat moss is generally a pretty big ingredient in most mixes I've seen discussed, but I'm not sure every peat moss is the same, and I know most mixes I'm talking about used Canadian Spaghnum Peat Moss. Maybe palm peat holds more water than that?

There are other things you can use besides coir for your aeration. Perlite and pumice are good substitutes.

We've been talking a lot about vermicomposting in the last few posts, and that sounds like something you might be interested in terms of creating more self-sufficiency and not having to rely on bagged compost.

Aloe is also good to apply to the plants after you prune or take cuttings to help them heal.
 
morning everyone I hope it's turning into a mighty fine day for all of you, got some promising rain clouds on the horizon.....:surf:

@TheFertilizer thanking you for helpin... I can get spaghnum peat moss 50kg here in south africa but it's on the pricey side. Coco coir I believe has ( correct me please if I'm mistaken ) the same water retention capabilities to facilitate /hold nutritional elements that we feed the soil with which the plants can thereby use... and 5kg coco coir makes +-70lts...

Palm peats water retention from what I can understand/researched is not as great as the above 2....

have a great day:thanks:
 
guess whose back, with questions.....?:hmmmm::goodluck:

So my intro to soil revolved around c.coots recipe. most of the stuff is hard to come by.
@420sa had a recipe based on coots with ingredients that ( South Africa ) has at hand.

Base mix - 20lt coco coir ( replaces spaghnum )
20lt perlite
15lt ewc
5lt compost and 2lt topsoil

Ammendmants.... 1 cup kelp meal
1 cup flax seed meal 6-1-1 ( similiar to Neem seed meal 6-1-2 )
( not sure about pest prevention )
1 cup shrimp/prawn crab meal ( better start eating...lol )
4 cups basalt ( turbo grow )
1 cup soft rock phosphate
2 cups gypsum
1 cup dolomite lime ( a difference in opinions regarding the use versus agri lime )

And egg shells I have a collection going...lol

Another recipe that would work in my favor is also from a member here, but I feel I haven't got to know them as well as I'd like to mention them by name yet....

It's a smorgasboard of ingredients all chucked together....

5kg coco coir
30lt leca balls
30lt ewc
10lt chicken manure
10lt mushroom compost ( difficult to get )
10lt alpaca poop ( low npk)
2kg bone meal
2kg kelp meal
10 fish heads alternative to crab/shrimp meal
1kg gypsum
500g Epsom salts
1 bag red wrigglers

This is also what I can work with. I am only learning as I go and still wrapping my head around NPK nevermind the micro herds I still got to meet....lol

Compost is in the works - green/orange/mix and my worm garden....

thankyou kindly and I look forward to learning/benefiting from everyone's trials and tribulations...:thanks:
 
Smeegol said:
morning everyone I hope it's turning into a mighty fine day for all of you, got some promising rain clouds on the horizon.....:surf:

@TheFertilizer thanking you for helpin... I can get spaghnum peat moss 50kg here in south africa but it's on the pricey side. Coco coir I believe has ( correct me please if I'm mistaken ) the same water retention capabilities to facilitate /hold nutritional elements that we feed the soil with which the plants can thereby use... and 5kg coco coir makes +-70lts...

Palm peats water retention from what I can understand/researched is not as great as the above 2....

have a great day:thanks:
Click to expand...

Here's a good read on this choice. I use peat moss.

Peat moss vs coco cior:

Peat vs Coco Coir


Economics may play a role in your decision here. Not sure of prices in SA

IF you're growing in containers skip the dolomite lime. Since you're mentioning Coots mix.. he never used dolomite lime.. The reason is Ca:Mg ratio..

Dolomite lime has a 2:1 Ca:Mg ratio - what happens when you run out of Ca?

Chlorophyll - molecular formula = C55H72O5N4Mg <-- 1molecule Mg

1 Mg molecule on the end there... the plant will use up Ca much faster than Mg then you end up with Mg toxicity. Looks like Ca deficiency so people use Cal/Mag to treat plant with. That ruins the soil for the next round.

You should be able to source Crustacean meal in SA.. you won't be able to create your own in the time frame for your grow. Sure compost the shells .. they will need time to break down. A long time.

Another source for Calcium besides dolomite lime.. Calcium Carbonate. That's 1 thing that you should be able to get pretty much anywhere. You need the fine powder version - the crustacean meal is the long lasting version for your Ca source... and there's also Oyster Shell flour. You may not be able to source the Oyster shell flour.

Your list:

5kg coco coir - see above
30lt leca balls - don't know??
30lt ewc - good use this all day
10lt chicken manure - too hot needs to compost more
10lt mushroom compost ( difficult to get ) - go to local nursery for compost source
10lt alpaca poop ( low npk) = good much better than chicken - I'd use this all day
2kg bone meal - YUK factor ... antibiotic free animals??
2kg kelp meal - I use this all day
10 fish heads alternative to crab/shrimp meal - find the meal & skip fish heads
1kg gypsum - I use this all day
500g Epsom salts - what this for?? Skip... magnesium - see above
1 bag red wrigglers - I use this all day

Basalt rock dust (flour fine grind)
Neem and Karanja cake .. look for it.. you're much closer to India that the USA..

I think you mentioned Rock Phosphate but not in the list... skip not required.

Coots mix is pretty basic.. not a lot of ingredients and so not a lot of substitutes.

"Coots inspired" soil recipe...

This VVVV

Think baking a cake.. sub in several ingredients - you won't have a cake and likely something that doesn't resemble a cake either... same thing here.


Best effort made finding the proper ingredients.

If you can source Alpaca poop... that is one manure you can use straight into soil mix without need for compost. That shit is VERY similar to Rabbit manure and rare as hens teeth here in the USA. The Alpaca farmers know what they have and use it directly onto their soil beds for organic veggie gardens. This can be mixed with your EWC to make up our humus portion of your soil mix.

Then just find your amendments..

For reference - this a good Coots mix that can be used no-til for several runs (years). You're in SA - so there's kelp meal from down where the cold water is ... go to your local farm supply store or Ag supply.. they likely will have several of these ingredients and they are fed to the animals as feed (and why its called MEAL).

G/L - ask away with any questions... no dumb question.

Coots Mix:

Acadian Kelp Meal @ 1/2 Cup per cubic foot
Neem Cake and Karanja Cake 50/50 Mix @ 1/2 to 1 cup per cubic foot
Crustacean Meal @ 1/2 Cup per cubic foot
Malted Barley @ 1 Cup Per Cubic Foot (ground fine in a coffee grinder)

Gypsum Dust @ 1 Cup Per Cubic Foot
Brix Blend Basalt @ 1 Cup Per Cubic Foot
Glacial Rock Dust @ 1 Cup Per Cubic Foot
Oyster Flour @ 1 Cup Per Cubic Foot

Mix with:

Quart of EWC (can be as much as 25% of the humus portion)
EWC = earth worm casting

1/3 humus = Compost/EWC/Vermicompost
1/3 aeration = Rice hulls or Perl-lite
1/3 CSPM = Canadian Spagnum Peat Moss
 
thankyou kindly @bobrown14 and thankyou to everyone else for any and all knowledge offered as I greatly appreciate it. I'm sure the dumb questions will be plenty....lol I will most certainly ask many while I track down ingredients.

If I may pose another question , instead of dolomite lime would I achieve the same intent by using fine ground eggshells...... as its a source of cal/mag in one if I've understood correctly.. Would it be beneficial in a no till set up as a long term amendment, or due to being powder form it's available sooner.....

:thanks:
 
Smeegol said:
would I achieve the same intent by using fine ground eggshells
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Egg shells do indeed have Calcium Carbonate.

I am never sure about posting links, but this is educational....
ttp://www.....marric.us/files/HS_Chem_Egg_labpdf.pdf

Put a h in front of it and removve excess periods after www ( just one period will suffice)

or copy &nd paste second result was what I got....


Now from my opinion oyster shell flour is easier because it is very hard to get the egg shell ground to flour 'fine'.
Egg shells maye break down at a different rate. I dunno?
That being said I do use ground egg shells with mortar and pestle.
....I also like to use coffee grounds after the grow and let the soil sit for 2 weeks, if i can.
But sometime you just gotta grow, grow, grow....
I have to try to be disciplined and just let it run and not add anything outside the recipe. After the grow and 2 inch of ewc and re amendment.
I am using a US commercially available source for all my soil.
. . . But am moving toward building my own soil. Gotta stop being lazy bones sleeping in the sun.:goodluck:



EDiT: I make sure to wash out the white filament inside the egge shell, it is organic but i dont think it adds to the soil recipe.

edit 2: I ave not read through this yet but looked good enough to post....https://www.agronext.iastate.edu/soilfertility/info/eggshell-lime.pdf

It seems the soil has to be on the acid side to decompose egg shell???:Namaste:
 
Afternoon @kelticBlue also thankyou kindly for responding regarding the egg shells, have jotted down the link as I'm meeting so many people here todayand your journals also there just haven't had a chance to formerly introduce myself after lurking as I'm snowed under trying to keep up with everyone's warm welcomes.......:thanks:
 
This is what i find on Oyster shell flour as a lime 'agent' o 'replacement'
This product is not what it would appear from the name, i.e. it's not a product made from crushed oyster shells but rather it's a particular oyster shell mined from the San Francisco Bay from ancient sea deposits made up of very tiny and fragile oyster shells.
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in addition:
Oyster Shell Flour A high quality soil conditioner which consists of 96% calcium carbonate and many micronutrients, Oyster Shell provides a long-lasting, steady release of nutrients to help regulate pH levels, improve fertilizer uptake, promote healthy cellular structure and enhance soil tilth. Oyster Shell is also helpful in creating more active habitats for soil microbes in compost piles and worm bins.
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:goodluck:
 
So regarding lime vs oyster shell, the major difference is that the lime will include Mg which will not degrade as fast as the calcium, upsetting the Ca:Mg ratio?

Well, if one were to use Oyster shell, and have another source of Mg, what is keeping the Ca from the oyster shell from degrading just as rapidly and leaving your other source of Mg to mess up the Ca:Mg ratio as well?

Just trying to understand this better. I've been reading up a tiny bit of why lime pH buffers, and it seems that the Ca and Mg are positive charged and get H exchanged with them, which makes less H available and therefore drives the pH down? Hoes it it bring the pH up in an acidic soil then?

Does oyster shell basically accomplish the same type of hydrogen exchanging ( whatever is going on there ) on its own without the Mg added?

Anyway, curious about this. Suppose someone would ordinarily follow the common rule of thumb of 1-2 TbSp of dolomite lime per gallon of soil, what would the alternative oyster shell treatment be? Can it be used as a substitute at the same rates?
 
So much good information on this thread, seems like y'all might bring me out of the "no app darkness" I've been in these past few months! Slowly been reading up on organics, wanting to switch from DWC. So...... I built my own bed outside, about 1 cubic yard total, using 1/3 CSPM, 1/3 EWC/COMPOST(mushroom compost, fish compost, EWC), 1/3 AERATION(rice hulls, lava rock, biochar) two bags of the 3.8 cu ft mix CC complete soil building kit; also got a worm factory 360 with a mix of red Wiggler's and earthworms. Have everything mixed up and wrapped with a tarp, will uncover in another week or two. Anyways, thanks for all the knowledge that continues to drop! Maybe I'll get another journal up and running again, if I can get comfy with all the "newness"
 
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