Building A Better Soil: Demonstrations & Discussions Of Organic Soil Recipes

Alright so I mentioned mixing my own amendments and trying a new base mix a month back or so, I gave it a go and I have a few concerns.

Mainly my base mix, 1/6th peat, 1/6th coco, 1/3 perlite, 1/3 worm castings. Seems to have a compaction issue over the normal 1/3 peat, but it may also be the amendments. It has 1/2 cup per cubic foot of my amendments, and an additional 1/2 cup per cubic foot of azomite. A seed starting mix, I'm seeing compaction and "shrinkage"(space between the fabric and the soil itself) and dying seedlings. Also seeing compaction in soils with higher amendments. Do not see any compaction in the container it's mixed, cooked(cooked 2-3weeks(not ideal I know), and stored.

For my seedlings, I've considered ph an issue also, since the mix wasn't limed and instead less oyster shell powder was amended in it. Gotta get a new ph meter to check it, but I figured it wouldn't be an issue with less peat and coco coir instead.

Amendment mix ratios:
4 Alfalfa Meal
1 Neem Meal
1 kelp meal
1 crustation meal
1 bone meal
1 fish bone meal
1 fish meal
1 oyster shell powder
1 sul po mag
1 glacial rock dust
1 greensand
1 gypsum powder
1 azomite
1 flaxseed meal
.2 humic acid


Could it be the amendments? Going by the Coots nutrients kit I was using before, it's 1.5cups nutes to 4 cups minerals. My amendment mix doesn't reflect this, do I need to up the minerals since its a new soil mix? Could it be the base mix? Coco is the only change and it felt great over peat. The mix after its been in both fabric pots and plastic rootmaker pots feels very dense after about week now, initially it was lose. Top watered the potted soil once and bottom wicked since then.


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Morning Atulip :)

You have a lot of "powder" type amendments in that mix:
1 crustation meal
1 bone meal
1 fish bone meal
1 fish meal
1 oyster shell powder
1 sul po mag
1 glacial rock dust
1 greensand
1 gypsum powder
Click to expand...

This will cause compaction issues, especially gypsum. Gypsum is a good amendment but when moist becomes like glue and needs to be used sparingly. Along with the other fine grained meals and dusts, this is likely the problem.

I would suggest adding a good humus at 1 part to 2 parts of your current soil or making your peat , coco, perlite and EWC equal parts. As you are using fabric bags, you could easily do away with the perlite and use peat 1/3, coco 1/3 and EWC 1/3.

Coco helps with both aeration and water retention and the fabric breathes so aeration doesn't pose the problem like it would in plastic pots.

Just some thoughts to help you out mate :thumb:
 
Watch that sul-po-mag. Just at a glance that looks like a lot. I don't recall ever adding more than 1/4 part as compared to everything else. I've stopped adding it to the mix and using it as a water in or foliar like Epsom when a shot of K is needed. Epsom is your better choice for Mg. Tip: It doesn't dissolve as quick as Epsom, so make a solution at least 2 days in advance. Shake it once or twice a day and you'll notice the larger pieces breaking down. If you are the type who is inclined to give a P/K boost going into flower, this is a good choice for the K side. The Mag and Sul are nice too.
 
Gosh guys, I feel like I just walked out of class. Brilliant work. :bravo: You may teach me how to retain all that some day, but for now, how thankful am I that we have this space where I know I can find it for reference? My heartfelt appreciation for your participation here gentlemen. :battingeyelashes: :Love:
 
Robert Celt said:
Morning Atulip :)

You have a lot of "powder" type amendments in that mix:


This will cause compaction issues, especially gypsum. Gypsum is a good amendment but when moist becomes like glue and needs to be used sparingly. Along with the other fine grained meals and dusts, this is likely the problem.

I would suggest adding a good humus at 1 part to 2 parts of your current soil or making your peat , coco, perlite and EWC equal parts. As you are using fabric bags, you could easily do away with the perlite and use peat 1/3, coco 1/3 and EWC 1/3.

Coco helps with both aeration and water retention and the fabric breathes so aeration doesn't pose the problem like it would in plastic pots.

Just some thoughts to help you out mate :thumb:
Click to expand...

Well the seedling mix is only amended with 1/2 cup per cubic foot, and it's compacting just as bad as the 3 cup mix.

My first thought was the lack of rock dusts, since my amendment mix is 10/17 parts ferts, but if more dusts would make it more compact, then more minerals wouldn't help. I don't think more base would help, since it's compacting at such a small amendment amount already. I was thinking its the base soil or I'm missing something I had before.

Maybe I can whip up another batch with no amendments and toss it in a pot and see how it responds. Maybe a classic 1/3 peat batch to see if it's any different than half coco.


@Heirloom
I figured that small of ratio would be fine, with 1/2 cup amendments, it's only 1 tablespoon per cubic foot, up to 6tbs in the full mix.
 
Soil Project

Thanks for all the replies!
I have gone through everything several times now. Tomorrow is probably the first chance to find anything locally and other commitments are eating up today. I need to do some checking on the internet and put together some orders. So I will ask for a recommendation on the lime source.

Unlike SweetSue, it takes me a while to compose a post. Let me see what I can come up with and I will get back with a new list.

The dialog and a lot of reading is finally kicking in. Well, at least a little of it.

I confess, I am having fun.

Best,
canyon
 
Hello Canyon,

If there are feed mills, farm supply stores or even landscape companies near you, they all should have bags of lime. Just ask for agricultural lime rather than dolomitic lime. Agricultural lime is just calcium carbonate whereas dolomitic has magnesium in it but at the wrong ratios for healthy plant growth.
 
Radogast said:
The Neem cake numbers I saw were 5-1-1 and 6-1-2, so this sounds like a 50% neem cake mix.

I used about 1 TBSP per gallon of neem cake (part of a pre-mixed nutrient it) in my soil started 4/20 last year.
This has kept fungus gnats from hatching for 11 months now. -- I got fungus gnats from fresh soil 5-8 times in the last year. Within 3 days of spotting them, they were gone and did not come back until next time I used fresh soil..... so the stuff works.

Now I pre-moisten my seedling soil and 'cook' out the gnats months before planting. No new gnats!

In my experience, neem cake in the soil does a great job of controlling fungus gnats.
Click to expand...

Quick question....I have neem oil and karanja oil. How can I effectively use them in teas or should I use them as foliar sprays?

YT
 
yankeetoker said:
Quick question....I have neem oil and karanja oil. How can I effectively use them in teas or should I use them as foliar sprays?

YT
Click to expand...

I'd keep them for foliars yankeetoker. Cakes or meals in teas, oils for foliars.
 
Unfortunately I mixed what I had so, I figure I can "amend" it as much as I can with what I have

bobrown14 said:
Up your Kelp meal, to 2 cups, add more hummus - add in 1 more gal of coast of main lobster compost and another gal of EWC

I have kelp meal, lobster compost, and EWC, so I can increase those amounts

I would swap bone meal for 2 cups of alfalfa meal (not a fan of bone meal = GMO feed & antibiotics + general yuk)

Since I already added bone meal, should I just increase by another cup or add alfalfa meal (which I also have)

Don't forget rock dust - a good bit too 2-3 cups to your mix... Basalt brix blend is tops - azomite too.

I added 2 cups of azomite, would you still say 2-3 cups of rock dust (which I still need) as well?

You will be able to re-use the pot with that soil again right away after harvest. Chop and drop a new clone or hardened off seedling.


Make it 1-2 cup of lime - whats your lime source?? Limestone, oyster shell flower, crab shell meal.....???? Dolomite won't break down fast enough to help buffer PH of the peat moss.

I used Espoma Garden Lime....I "bypassed" the crab meal since I am using lobster compost and it is made from and contains lobster shells in the mix....would the additional lobster compost address this need?


Recompile your list again please and lets take another look ....

I advise this basic recipe for the base mix to be the following:

1/3 peat - 1/3 aeration perlite - 1/3 humus (add EWC to compost & your vegan mix = total hummus)

amendments add in to above.

This mix should be LITE - your recipe will be TOO lite without more hummus. It will work but you will have issues with soil drying out fast once the plants get to 1' or more they get thirsty, you dont want to have to water 2x a day. Peat moss does not have any nutritional value for the plants or very little so you want to get your plant nutrition from the hummus portion and amendments.

Edit:
Hey guys almost forgot to mention Neem Cake Meal and Karanja cake meal. Those are available world wide. I don't mix any soil without them and use them in my teas as well.
Neem cake meal is a magnet for micro-organisms AND insects HATE it.
Click to expand...

Don't have neem cake and karanja cake, but do have neem and karanja oils, can they be used as a foliar spray or soil drench?

YT
 
Soil Project
This morning I scored calcium carbonate poultry feed additive 35-40% Ca from high Ca limestone. It is a fine power.

This revision is my best guess on amounts. Please let me know what you think. I am open to change anything.

For the base. It adds up to 24 gallons.
8 gal. peat
7 gal. perlite
5 gal. castings
2 gal. NM Compost Products (Recycled yard trimmings, stable bedding, horse manure. Very woody)
1 gal. Back to Earth Cotton Burr Blend Compost (Feedstock, Hardwood, Cotton burs +)
1 gal. Ferti Lome (Peat, Perlite, Lime, Wetting agent. That is all, mostly peat.)

Amendments Just shy of a Gallon.
4 cups Lime
2 cups alfalfa meal
4 cups kelp meal
1/2 cup Neem pellets
1 cup Crab shell
1 cup Frass
½ cup Diatomaceous earth
1 cup rock phosphate

I have a chance of getting some rock dust tomorrow; otherwise I will order and add in later.

Unless someone has a compelling reason to add gypsum I am going to leave it out.

Bobrown14 suggested leaving out bone meal for yankeetoker's mix. Any ideas for a replacement.

Unused items I have on hand.
Green sand 0-0-3
Guano 10-3-1
Guano 0-5-0
Epsom salt

Thanks,
canyon
 
Bone meal is primarily a source of Phosphorous, the 0-5-0 Guano you have can be used :)

I would also suggest you add in the Epsom salt, as it is a prime source of Mg which your plants need. I see only alfalfa and maybe neem that would contain any quanties of Mg.
 
Robert Celt said:
Morning Atulip :)

You have a lot of "powder" type amendments in that mix:


This will cause compaction issues, especially gypsum. Gypsum is a good amendment but when moist becomes like glue and needs to be used sparingly. Along with the other fine grained meals and dusts, this is likely the problem.

I would suggest adding a good humus at 1 part to 2 parts of your current soil or making your peat , coco, perlite and EWC equal parts. As you are using fabric bags, you could easily do away with the perlite and use peat 1/3, coco 1/3 and EWC 1/3.

Coco helps with both aeration and water retention and the fabric breathes so aeration doesn't pose the problem like it would in plastic pots.

Just some thoughts to help you out mate :thumb:
Click to expand...

^^^ That :thumb:... I don't worry too much about compaction with a new mix as long as I follow the 1/3 aeration- 1/3 CSPM - 1/3 hummus base mix. I grow in plastic pots.


For seedlings just do worm castings a little peat and some aeration = to amount of EWC... what happens to the seedlings is the micro-organisms start working on the delicate roots and they get over whelmed. I usually see stopped growth followed by a slow unfortunate death. You can even start them off in just EWC and a a little pearlite. This happens to me a lot. I found that the only seeds that make it in that soil recipe are seeds I made or from a QUALITY seed company.

Example.. I started 4 auto strain seeds in that recipe mix - all 4 sprouted when I transplanted into the soil mix... 3 out of 4 took the dive. I started 1 HSO chemdawg seed transplanted it - she's in flower already.

^^^ example - 5 seeds is not enough to draw any conclusion. I've seen this happen more times than I like tho so that's an example of many tries. I've got no-til soil that I ran for say 10 runs and dump that into a tote and we use that for all our seedlings... works fine. The fresh mix not so much, but if you have the seeds its a good way to cull the herd and find the keepers. I have a hard time watch $30 worth of seeds take a dive. I move on quick....

AT-
I see you've been warned against the sol-po-mag... that's not necessary in this mix IMHO, and you can skip. If you feel your micro herd needs a boost I suggest making a worm casting tea with some kelp meal added. There's really not much a kelp/worm casting tea wont fix sans over watering. That's good advice later on when anyone starts to feel the ladies are not looking healthy.

*** Easy soil fix - worm casting/Kelp meal tea - aerate over night water in or better spray on and water in.

Remember the goal is healthy living soil = healthy living plants. In organic gardening there are NO short cuts and no super duper bottle of goodness. Do you work getting a good soil mix in the beginning, and we cruise the rest of the way.

Here's a quote from an organic master LD:

" I measure the success of a grow on the overall health of the garden, i.e. no mites, no powdery mildew, gnats, whatever. The less I have to work the more successful the grow went from my perspective."

^^^ That's the way I see it.

It keeps things fun when I don't have to work too hard. FTW

In the beginning:

Leap of faith - yes
results - yes and them some.
 
Good morning Canyon,

Not sure the density of guano, but lets assume it is 300g/cup. From that we can determine that there is 15g of phosphorus per cup. If these are plants you will be tending regularly, I would suggest adding 1/2 cup and then as the plants get older and start into flowering, make teas with the guano, some alfalfa and EWC and feed it to your plants once a week, twice a week if they are really large plants.
 
Heirloom said:
I wonder if course sand would help loosen it up? Sometimes adding not enough sand it will set up like concrete. But find the right amount and it can help. Since you have zero clay in there it just might help.
Click to expand...

Vermiculite helped. 3 cups per cubic foot. I was sitting in my grow room going through my ingredients when the bag of vermiculite reads "reduces soil compaction"

I have s pot with the same mix with added vermiculite now for ~36hours or so, no compaction yet.

@bobrown14 I was concerned about seedlings making it through, my last batch of 8 seeds I have 5 germ so far after 9 days, usually I have 100% up by day 7 from seed(only 1 seed died so far in the last year of starting directly in soil). I also had 2, of the same strain, that look like brown sticks(other 3 look like perfectly healthy seedlings), but one of them is opening up some brown looking codyletons, so it appears there's still life. Not too concerned with lost seeds(buy in bulk, $4 a seed), but empty pots in my tents are wasted light and space. Just one strain doing this, in both fabric pot and plastic propagation pot one of each with a brown stick rising from the dirt.
 
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