Building A Better Soil: Demonstrations & Discussions Of Organic Soil Recipes

Afternoon Radogast :)

I had a hellava problem with gnats as well last year, buggers are hard to control because they can live just about anywhere, sink drains, damp basements, garbage cans etc.

I now put about a 1/2" of stone dust (crusher dust) over the soil in all my pots. The stone dust dries out too quick for gnat eggs to hatch and the larvae to live.

Any covering you can put on top of the soil that drains quickly and dries out will control gnats :)
 
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Any covering you can put on top of the soil that drains quickly and dries out will control gnats :)

I hesitate to ask because I don't want anyone to get an incorrect idea. Just thinking out loud. Would old newspaper work on top of soil?

I don't have any old newspapers.
I don't have gnats just my wacky flight of ideas interjecting without a filter. Again. Sheesh.
Grate day all.
 
I hesitate to ask because I don't want anyone to get an incorrect idea. Just thinking out loud. Would old newspaper work on top of soil?

I don't have any old newspapers.
I don't have gnats just my wacky flight of ideas interjecting without a filter. Again. Sheesh.
Grate day all.

Old newspapers on top of soil sounds like worm food to me - it should be safe for the soil and plants.
 
I have a tub of neem fertilizer 2.75-1-1 and 1% calcium. For potted plants, the label says 10 gram for 5 gallons. It is in pellet form. Is this a good substitute for cake or meal?

Also, some here are adding ground or chopped alovera to soil mixes. I am curious as to how much is added to a mix.

Yesterday a refractometer came Prime shipping. The first leaf I took from a plant 4 nodes from the top was three days into flower. Everything went smooth and I got a disappointing 9.5 reading. When I tried other plant they mostly came apart and I could not get drops. Tomorrow I will try a garlic press. Maybe some cheese cloth is worth a try.

Frankly the quantities of amendments some of you are able to add is amazing to me. For about six or eight months I have been changing mixes around, adding new things, as well as doing a lot of reading. In the past I have avoided peat. I have started using mixes with more now. I don't have a good feel for it yet.

So far I have been amending recycled soil and new bags with small quantities of what I have.

It is time to jump in and makeup something that is high brix from the start. I want to cook a batch soon but need to gather some things first. It would be nice to have something ready in time to final pot some plants soon. For now I am cycling eight 15 gallon pots to finish plants. I only flower two or three and I stagger them, so it is an ongoing project.

Thanks,
I never know
 
I have a tub of neem fertilizer 2.75-1-1 and 1% calcium. For potted plants, the label says 10 gram for 5 gallons. It is in pellet form. Is this a good substitute for cake or meal?

Also, some here are adding ground or chopped alovera to soil mixes. I am curious as to how much is added to a mix.

Yesterday a refractometer came Prime shipping. The first leaf I took from a plant 4 nodes from the top was three days into flower. Everything went smooth and I got a disappointing 9.5 reading. When I tried other plant they mostly came apart and I could not get drops. Tomorrow I will try a garlic press. Maybe some cheese cloth is worth a try.

Frankly the quantities of amendments some of you are able to add is amazing to me. For about six or eight months I have been changing mixes around, adding new things, as well as doing a lot of reading. In the past I have avoided peat. I have started using mixes with more now. I don't have a good feel for it yet.

So far I have been amending recycled soil and new bags with small quantities of what I have.

It is time to jump in and makeup something that is high brix from the start. I want to cook a batch soon but need to gather some things first. It would be nice to have something ready in time to final pot some plants soon. For now I am cycling eight 15 gallon pots to finish plants. I only flower two or three and I stagger them, so it is an ongoing project.

Thanks,
I never know

The Neem cake numbers I saw were 5-1-1 and 6-1-2, so this sounds like a 50% neem cake mix.

I used about 1 TBSP per gallon of neem cake (part of a pre-mixed nutrient it) in my soil started 4/20 last year.
This has kept fungus gnats from hatching for 11 months now. -- I got fungus gnats from fresh soil 5-8 times in the last year. Within 3 days of spotting them, they were gone and did not come back until next time I used fresh soil..... so the stuff works.

Now I pre-moisten my seedling soil and 'cook' out the gnats months before planting. No new gnats!

In my experience, neem cake in the soil does a great job of controlling fungus gnats.
 
Thanks, Rad,
I was afraid of adding too much. I rotate neem oil and Monterrey garden spray for the above ground part of pest problems. If things get real bad I go with Azitrol. It stinks for days and is creepy to apply. I try to stay with neem most of the time.

Most of my pest problems came in something I bought.

Best


For Spider Mite control, I spray 1% neem oil (1 tsp in one pint warm water + soap) once every 3 days. It works!

The key is to make the mix up fresh for each use. After mixing with water, neem oil loses effectiveness in under a day.


If you are good at following a schedule, Doc Bud's kit is hard to beat ( and difficult to equal. )
 
So Radogast, you think the soil mix I adapted looks pretty good? Gonna get off my butt in a few and get mixing...lol

How long should I let it "cook"?

I think it looks great! More importantly, since you have the approval of Robert Celt, KelticBlue (heck probably any celt), you are golden.

Have you made a compost tea before?

It might be reckless of me, but if I were you I would mix, moisten with a well-brewed tea, and start using the next time you need to repot.
 
Rad,
No, I am not good at flowing schedules. Though, I am considering Doc's kit . Everybody says get the kit, no one says get it here.

My thoughts for the short term are to make a base mix of about four bags of four brands of good store bought soil with a bag of good compost, a bag of castings and an unknown amount of lime. Maybe add some reused soil. This much I have on hand and I may as well get it started. I am going to need to up pot some plants and this should be safe used as is.

Beyond that I have or can get most of the amendments discussed here. Maybe I should do a list of what is on hand.

Thanks
 
Canyon, this may come in handy for getting the Brix readings. This is Graytail's tutorial. I wouldn't use any kind of cloth.

How to take Brix measurements
 
Thanks Sue,
I had read the thread, and I checked it again looking for something I missed. I tried a few more this morning, almost got enough to read one.

That room is incredibly dry this time of year. The outdoor humidity is 11% today. I can start running an evaporative cooler in a few weeks. It's probably best to let the plants grow more leaves for now.

I am looking for ideas for the soil project.

I have these additives on hand.
Crab shell 3-2-0
Kelp meal 1-0-2
Bone meal 0-10-0
Alfalfa meal 2-0-0
Alfalfa meal 2-0.5-2
Green sand 0-0-3
Guano 10-3-1
Guano 0-5-0
Epsom salt
Diatomaceous earth
Insect frass
Meko start packs ( small pouches of 5-2-3 plus a bunch of stuff)
I am out of blood meal but should be able to get it locally.

For the base mix I want to use gallons for units. Mixing more than 20 gallons at a time is more trouble than it is worth. (I can store more) 20 is a good amount to start with for my needs.

All of the commercial soil has amendments.

Stuff I have in bags.

Batch 64 Moon Shine (Rice, Coir +)
Bush Doctor Coco Loco
HF soil conditioner (Humus, Castings, Dolomite Lime +)
FF ocean forest (peat,castings +)
NM Compost Products (Recycled yard trimmings, stable bedding, horse manure. Very woody)
Back to Earth Cotton Burr Blend Compost (Feedstock, Hardwood, Cotton burs +)
Ferti Lome (Peat, Perlite, Lime, Wetting agent. That is all, mostly peat.)
Lime
Dolomite Lime
Peat
Perlite
Castings

Well that is about it. No wonder it is so crowded.

There should be some combination of the odds and ends that would make a good mix. If there is anything I should look for to add let me know.

Best
canyon
 
20160323_111841-1.jpg


So here is what I came up with...after some exhaustive research,I think the numbers are right....

Up your Kelp meal, to 2 cups, add more hummus - add in 1 more gal of coast of main lobster compost and another gal of EWC

I would swap bone meal for 2 cups of alfalfa meal (not a fan of bone meal = GMO feed & antibiotics + general yuk)

Don't forget rock dust - a good bit too 2-3 cups to your mix... Basalt brix blend is tops - azomite too.

You will be able to re-use the pot with that soil again right away after harvest. Chop and drop a new clone or hardened off seedling.


Make it 1-2 cup of lime - whats your lime source?? Limestone, oyster shell flower, crab shell meal.....???? Dolomite won't break down fast enough to help buffer PH of the peat moss.


Recompile your list again please and lets take another look ....

I advise this basic recipe for the base mix to be the following:

1/3 peat - 1/3 aeration perlite - 1/3 humus (add EWC to compost & your vegan mix = total hummus)

amendments add in to above.

This mix should be LITE - your recipe will be TOO lite without more hummus. It will work but you will have issues with soil drying out fast once the plants get to 1' or more they get thirsty, you dont want to have to water 2x a day. Peat moss does not have any nutritional value for the plants or very little so you want to get your plant nutrition from the hummus portion and amendments.

Edit:
Hey guys almost forgot to mention Neem Cake Meal and Karanja cake meal. Those are available world wide. I don't mix any soil without them and use them in my teas as well.
Neem cake meal is a magnet for micro-organisms AND insects HATE it.
 
bobrown,
From your reply to yankeetoker I worked up a list for about 20 gallons of mix with mostly what I have on hand. I would appreciate your thoughts.

From Yanke's modified list plus recommendations from you.

For the base.
7 gal. peat
7 gal. perlite
3 gal. castings
1 gal. NM Compost Products (Recycled yard trimmings, stable bedding, horse manure. Very woody)
1 gal. Back to Earth Cotton Burr Blend Compost (Feedstock, Hardwood, Cotton burs +)
1 gal. Ferti Lome (Peat, Perlite, Lime, Wetting agent. That is all, mostly peat.)

Amendments.
4 cups alfalfa meal
2 cups kelp meal
For the rock dust, is rock phosphate a suitable substitute?
I checked and the lime I have is dolomite. I will change that out and plan for 4 cups.
I do not have any gypsum. I will order. Worst case Wednesday Prime shipping.
I want to add some neem pellets, crab shell and insect frass, but not sure how much. I don't know what Karanja cake meal is, but I will look for it.

This leaves a few unused items I have on hand.
Green sand 0-0-3
Guano 10-3-1
Guano 0-5-0
Epsom salt
Diatomaceous earth

I will place an order tomorrow evening or Monday morning.

Thanks
canyon
 
For the rock dust, is rock phosphate a suitable substitute?

I want to add some neem pellets, crab shell and insect frass, but not sure how much. I don't know what Karanja cake meal is, but I will look for it.

I'm just going to chime in and say that a general rule of thumb is 2-3 cups of fertilizer amendment max per cubic foot of soil base. This does NOT include other amendments like gypsum, lime and rock dust. By fertilizer amendments I mean alfalfa, neem, karanja and crustacean meals, guanos, kelp, rock phosphate, epsom etc. 2-3 cups per cubic foot TOTAL, not each. This is close to, but not as strong as 'super soil'. And depending on the fert recipe, plant genetics and pot size, it should be close to carrying an average plant through a normal cycle.

I have found that about 1/2 of the 2-3 cups ends up being kelp.



Rock dust and rock phosphate are not the same and not interchangeable. The rock dusts are mineral rich stone grindings. Common varieties are glacial, volcanic basalt and volcanic granite. BB14 mentioned Brix blend basalt, it's volcanic basalt from CO if I remember right. Others are cascade minerals, CBD, gaia green glacial, azomite and more...

Regional Rock

What Wikipedia says about rock dust....

Rockdust - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

With rock dusts you are after the silica and slow release of micro nutrients.


Rock Phosphate is different in mineral content and particularly high in phosphorous. Chemically treated it becomes super phosphate and further processing it becomes triple super phosphate.

What wiki says about rock phos.....

Phosphorite - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

With rock phosphate you get just phosphate.

Hope this helps some.

:circle-of-love:
 
Good morning all :)

I thought I would pop in and offer some extra information concerning the organics many of us are using/converting to.

Many growers have been conditioned to think in terms of hydro and/or traditional greenhouse methods, although nutrient uptake is similar in all grow methods, it is the nature of the nutrients provided that is different.

Having come to this hobby late in life (both growing and using cannabis), 45 yrs old to be exact, I had no preconceived notions of soil and plants. Wanting to grow organically from the outset, and having a background in chemistry and biology (from my engineering studies) I dove straight into the science of soils and how they support our plants.

We all know what NPK is, but many do not realize the scientific difference between organic sources and traditional sources.

I am sure many have heard others, maybe even experienced it themselves,talk of nutrient burn. A "burn" in its simplest definition, regardless of whether its from heat, chemical or some other reason, is the de-hydration of tissue. Nutrient burn is the de-hydration of plant tissue, and this only occurs in methods that use "salts" as a nutrient source. A "hot" soil, has excess nutrient salts in it.

Now I said you can't cause nutrient burn with organic soils, which is true, but you can still burn your plants with organics if you don't "cook" the soil long enough. This is because as the organic matter breaks down, it creates heat, enough so that it can literally "cook" your plants. As a general rule, cook your soil in a pile, container, whatever, until you can put your hand into the center of the pile and it feels cool to the touch. Once the center is cool, you can use the soil without concerns of burning your plants.

As Bob mentioned above, mix humus in with your soil. Humus is full of micro-nutrients and has great exchange capacity.

To give you an idea, the CEC of coco is about 100 meg/100mg, peat is 100-200 meq/100mg and humus is 100-300 meg/100mg. The higher the 'meq' the greater the number of sites for nutrients that are available to your plant, meaning faster, healthier growth.

Don't be overly concerned about over doing it with amendments. Unlike salt based nutrients,which are immediately available, most amendments you will be using will require 4 months or more to completely break down. So long as your soil is cool when you use it, your plants won't burn.

Now a note on perlite. If you are using plastic pots to grow in, then I highly recommend using it to aid in aeration. On the other hand, if you are using fabric pots, then it is not required. Fabric pots (most types) breathe well, allowing good oxygen exchange into the soil, and perlite takes up space while offering little to plant growth as it has a low CEC.
 
bobrown,
From your reply to yankeetoker I worked up a list for about 20 gallons of mix with mostly what I have on hand. I would appreciate your thoughts.

From Yanke’s modified list plus recommendations from you.

For the base.
7 gal. peat
7 gal. perlite
3 gal. castings
1 gal. NM Compost Products (Recycled yard trimmings, stable bedding, horse manure. Very woody)
1 gal. Back to Earth Cotton Burr Blend Compost (Feedstock, Hardwood, Cotton burs +)
1 gal. Ferti Lome (Peat, Perlite, Lime, Wetting agent. That is all, mostly peat.)

Amendments.
4 cups alfalfa meal
2 cups kelp meal
For the rock dust, is rock phosphate a suitable substitute?
I checked and the lime I have is dolomite. I will change that out and plan for 4 cups.
I do not have any gypsum. I will order. Worst case Wednesday Prime shipping.
I want to add some neem pellets, crab shell and insect frass, but not sure how much. I don't know what Karanja cake meal is, but I will look for it.

This leaves a few unused items I have on hand.
Green sand 0-0-3
Guano 10-3-1
Guano 0-5-0
Epsom salt
Diatomaceous earth

I will place an order tomorrow evening or Monday morning.

Thanks
canyon

Good morning Canyon :)

Definitely add DE to your soil mix, it is one of the best sources of silicone for your plants. Silicone is used to promote strong stems in plants.
 
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