Building A Better Soil: Demonstrations & Discussions Of Organic Soil Recipes

[Robert Celt]

Morning Heirloom

Yes Acadian Seaplants is actually next door to where I used to work LOL I emailed them and about a month later they got back to me LOL They have one retailer that I can buy from

Sweet feed I would be careful of Heirloom, I worked in a feed mill in the late 80s and prepared feeds often have added supplements such as antibiotics and hormones that you don't want in your soil. If you are interested in trying it, ask the mill if they add an medications to the feed you want.

Other things you can source at feed mills are things like: Bone meal, blood meal, fish meal, feather meal etc. All things that we can use as amendments but are also used in making animal feed. They tend to come in 25 or 40Kg bags though and stink like you wouldn't believe LOL

Most feed mills will also sell you black strap molasses as well, take a 5 gal pail and the will fill it for you quite cheaply.

 

[Heirloom]

LOL, right next door...go figure.

Yeah, I'm aware of additions like Ractopamin and Chlortetracyclin. It's why I buy bulk cracked corn, soy meal and supplements for my bulk pig and chicken feeds, medicating only if there is need. Thanks for looking out. I wouldn't use products with that stuff in it.

Same here on the molasses. I'm set for a while. A neighbor gifted me 55 gallons. I have 10.5 five gallon buckets left lol.

 

[Robert Celt]

After our discussion about root mass the other day, I thought I would post some pictures of the pot from an outdoor girl that I broke up today so I can recycle the soil.

The pot was 14" diameter and 12" of soil so about 8 gallons.

Here is a look at the bottom after removing the grow bag. A number of large tap roots, approx. 3/16" in diameter, but mostly fine hair roots.

And a close up of the roots in a piece I broke off

The roots are woven through the soil very much like a mass of steel wool and gets denser the closer you move towards the stump. I took about a 1/2 hour to break apart with much of the fine roots breaking off into the soil which is OK as they will break down to feed the next plant

 

[Emilya Green]

After our discussion about root mass the other day, I thought I would post some pictures of the pot from an outdoor girl that I broke up today so I can recycle the soil.

The pot was 14" diameter and 12" of soil so about 8 gallons.

Here is a look at the bottom after removing the grow bag. A number of large tap roots, approx. 3/16" in diameter, but mostly fine hair roots.

That is the nature of and the main selling point of the cloth smart pots, and a very good view of what happens because of the air pruning that results. In a hard side container, without that pruning, you get the roots wrapping on the sides and bottom in the hard sided pots, but I have also dissected my rootballs and know that just under that outside edge, my roots look just like yours do, a fine mesh of very healthy roots. Both methods seem to work, and the plants simply adapt to the many strange things that we do to them.

 

[bobrown14]

Kelp meal actually has a pretty insignificant amount of any NPK's. If anything it's generally highest in Potassium, but it's really used for it's micro-nutrients and growth hormones. I wouldn't add it with the expectation of getting a good N boost with it.

EDIT: If you want the K boost from kelp. A soluble kelp is better than kelp meal. Soluble kelp is made from dehydrating the kelp juices during the processing of kelp meal.

Here's how I use Kelp:

It's in my soil mix from the beginning, I also use it along with neem regularly as a foiler spray.

Since you mentioned NPK, kelp meal is a 1-0-2 so it has readily accessible N (by the plants roots and micro-organisms). If it was HIGH in N I would not be able to use it as a foiler spray or top dress on mix in with soil as it would burn the plants leaves and micro-organisms. As mentioned yes kelp meal also has many micro-nutrients beneficial to the soil microbes.

How I use it is; 2 tbs in a quart jar of RO water - 1 tbs of neem cake meal and re-hydrate and let sit and shake it every once in a while. Add this mix to a gallon of water strain and foiler spray and/or water in unfiltered. If your energetic you can re-hydrate the kelp meal (takes about an hour or so) and then put that in a blender and chop chop and into water for a tea.

The foiler spray is also for pest control (form the neem cake meal) but its also beneficial for an N boost - immediately available thru the leaves.

Kelp meal is a 100% must have ingredient in my soil. There is no substitute. I could list all the reasons why, it will be a long list!

 

[SweetSue]

BB, you could not have been more timely. Can you foliar spray with kelp in flower?

 

[Radogast]

+reps on the kelp meal share BoBrown.

I am using Water/Neem Oil/Soap(as surfactant) for a foliar spider mite control. The neem oil in water seems to have a shelf life in hours, so I mix and use right away.

If I mix up a kelp meal tea and strain it, can I mix a Kelp Tea/Neem oil/Soap(as surfactant) foliar spray?
Will the soap block the kelp meal effects?
How long a shelf life can I expect from a kelp meal tea? A week?

 

[Heirloom]

Whoa, WTH??? ROBERT CELT....MODERATOR???

Congratz Celt

 

[bobrown14]

+reps on the kelp meal share BoBrown.

I am using Water/Neem Oil/Soap(as surfactant) for a foliar spider mite control. The neem oil in water seems to have a shelf life in hours, so I mix and use right away.

If I mix up a kelp meal tea and strain it, can I mix a Kelp Tea/Neem oil/Soap(as surfactant) foliar spray?

Will the soap block the kelp meal effects?

How long a shelf life can I expect from a kelp meal tea? A week?

You can do that but only foilar spray oil when lights are out, why I use the neem cake meal instead as I spray with lights on. The neem cake meal tea is about 1/2 the strength of the oil so I get the results I want for IPM with the neem cake meal. I have the oil too but never have a need for it yet. Also for soap (saponins) I have soap nuts on hand. The soap nuts have lots of saponins with the addition of also beneficial for soil, more so that soap.

The soap nuts I use also when mixing soil - it helps get the CSPM wet, saponins work great as a wetting agent as well

Shelf life is a few days, if that. I have lots of kelp and neem cake meal so no need for me to store it really. I'll add to worm bin or flower gardens if I have extra. Its good to add both kelp and neem cake meal to worm bins and your outdoor gardens, win win.

We use that stuff everywhere in our gardens.

 

[bobrown14]

BB, you could not have been more timely. Can you foliar spray with kelp in flower?

I do but not after 2 weeks before harvest... don't want fishy tasting buds eh?

 

[Radogast]

You can do that but only foilar spray oil when lights are out, why I use the neem cake meal instead as I spray with lights on. The neem cake meal tea is about 1/2 the strength of the oil so I get the results I want for IPM with the neem cake meal. I have the oil too but never have a need for it yet. Also for soap (saponins) I have soap nuts on hand. The soap nuts have lots of saponins with the addition of also beneficial for soil, more so that soap.

The soap nuts I use also when mixing soil - it helps get the CSPM wet, saponins work great as a wetting agent as well

Shelf life is a few days, if that. I have lots of kelp and neem cake meal so no need for me to store it really. I'll add to worm bin or flower gardens if I have extra. Its good to add both kelp and neem cake meal to worm bins and your outdoor gardens, win win.

We use that stuff everywhere in our gardens.

When I ordered the CC mix from build-a-soil I thought the nnem cake would be a seperate, mix-in ingredient but it came pre-mixed. I THOUGHTIwas ordering exra neem cake but it seems I ordered a quart of neem oil, so that is what I am using. I'm too frugal to order something similar when I have something almost as good on hand.

My favorite time to visit the garden is just before lights out, so I just switch off the lights after I foliar spray with oil.

Soap nuts is a good idea, just not on hand like soap.

Thanks for the guidance

 

[Heirloom]

Well, I stopped in at a hydro store yesterday. I called ahead to get a few items in store since I knew he would not have what I needed in stock.

We talked for maybe an hour about soil. Of course he doesn't know much. I could tell about 10 words into me explaining something he would glaze over. He wishes (as do I) more people around here would grow organic. He opened in Feb 2015 and I am only the second customer to ask about things like rock dust, oyster shell, neem etc. Sad, sad state of affairs. Tried to sell me a pretty bag of forest humus . I declined because I have 26 acres of it already. The best, most surprising thing he had in stock was Bio-Ag Ful-Power and Cytoplus.

I did end up with a pretty decent haul by the end of the day. Finally got some shrimp meal and langbeinite. Picked up a little more azomite, kelp, neem and crab too. Even though his catalog has Cascade Minerals 44lb listed, he could not get it. So today I order CBD and cascade rock dusts from boogiebrew.com

I'm curious what some of you would do. I could help him mold the organic side of things. Point him in the right direction, make supplier contacts and have more of the right products available. Or I could forget it and simply order everything online. The store is 80 miles away (one way). Do I try to help the small business owner and maybe other people looking for organic amendments, or admit that it's not going to make much difference, there's probably not enough customers and it's too far away?

 

[ClosedCircuit]

Well, I stopped in at a hydro store yesterday. I called ahead to get a few items in store since I knew he would not have what I needed in stock.

We talked for maybe an hour about soil. Of course he doesn't know much. I could tell about 10 words into me explaining something he would glaze over. He wishes (as do I) more people around here would grow organic. He opened in Feb 2015 and I am only the second customer to ask about things like rock dust, oyster shell, neem etc. Sad, sad state of affairs. Tried to sell me a pretty bag of forest humus . I declined because I have 26 acres of it already. The best, most surprising thing he had in stock was Bio-Ag Ful-Power and Cytoplus.

I did end up with a pretty decent haul by the end of the day. Finally got some shrimp meal and langbeinite. Picked up a little more azomite, kelp, neem and crab too. Even though his catalog has Cascade Minerals 44lb listed, he could not get it. So today I order CBD and cascade rock dusts from boogiebrew.com

I'm curious what some of you would do. I could help him mold the organic side of things. Point him in the right direction, make supplier contacts and have more of the right products available. Or I could forget it and simply order everything online. The store is 80 miles away (one way). Do I try to help the small business owner and maybe other people looking for organic amendments, or admit that it's not going to make much difference, there's probably not enough customers and it's too far away?

Did you end up with the Ful-Power? I'm on the fence about those products. At first they seemed like a great idea to me...but using them is actually a great way to create deficiency and just generally fudge up (if not administered sparingly). I've considered...cant make up my mind

 

[Heirloom]

I do have the ful-power. I've used it once during germination (100:1 water/ful) and once when transplanting from cup to 1 gallon pot. However I have no way to quantify effects as the soil, most all amendments, seeds and...well...everything is new. I have no constant to compare against, yet.

This 3 wk old blue dream has received it. Mix is peat, ewc, hydroton, oyster shell, neem, kelp, crab, SRP & cascade minerals. Has had 1 weak dose of cytoplus and 2 ful-power (germ, transplant). No issues yet. Leaf spots are my own carelessness.

 

[Robert Celt]

You pose a good question Heirloom. I guess it would depend on whether the store owner has enough customers looking for organic amendments and if he is interested in your help.

80 miles is quite a run to get supplies, but then again, I guess I have made even longer trips to get things I wanted or needed LOL

 

[ClosedCircuit]

Man I feel spoiled - my local hydro store is like 6 blocks away and they are extremely knowledgeable about everything is seems.

 

[Heirloom]

Hi Celt. 80 miles is quite the distance. I can incorporate supply runs with trips to the airport or big costco type shopping trips, but I'm not just dropping by casual. Buying stuff by the 25-50lb bag is what I'll be doing. He took a picture of my notes and list of various amendments/supplies. Customers is the sticky part. People really like their solution in a bottle. Hard to use valuable shelf space on stuff that barely moves.

Sigh. There are no good organics OR hydro stores near me. I'm covered if I want tons of super phosphate, urea and sulfate of potash. And the monsanto solutions in bottles to go with them. :rolleyes3

6 blocks and knowledgeable. Score for you!

 

[Robert Celt]

Not being interested in hydro, and wanting a low maintenance organic medium, is why I put so much time into researching plant needs. From there I looked into what kinds of amendments I could use and source locally to build my soils. that in turn lead me to setting up my own composting piles and worm bin so I would have my own supply of castings for amendment and AACTs

Hydro stores around here focus almost entirely on hydro and don't even bother catering to soil growers.

 

[SweetSue]

I do have the ful-power. I've used it once during germination (100:1 water/ful) and once when transplanting from cup to 1 gallon pot. However I have no way to quantify effects as the soil, most all amendments, seeds and...well...everything is new. I have no constant to compare against, yet.

This 3 wk old blue dream has received it. Mix is peat, ewc, hydroton, oyster shell, neem, kelp, crab, SRP & cascade minerals. Has had 1 weak dose of cytoplus and 2 ful-power (germ, transplant). No issues yet. Leaf spots are my own carelessness.

The value of the Ful-Power is in its long-term usage. Light applications over time to build healthy soil. When you look at this soil after a year it's going to amaze you. I hadn't considered that when I started this little adventure, but the thrill of that no-till I have off to the side, churning out plant after plant is in the rich soil that fills it. It surprised me how much worms can do in a year.

That Blue Dream is a pretty thing.

 

[bobrown14]

I think the tide is going to change to organic once folks get smart and start reading the canna testing results. The testing process is just getting started so it may take a bit of time (year or so), but once folks start to see what they are ingesting as "medicine" from the hydo grows there will be a change to organically grown.

The process has already happened with veggies...

Healthier, tastes better, and the most important part, cost will change how the market reacts to organically grown in the near future.

Funny I got called "old school growing methods" the other day for growing organic.. Yep just like mother nature I'm "old school" and staying that way too.

I'm all about feeding the soil and get out of the way....

My friends that call me old school order from the dispensaries, then try and compare to organics, I don't even think they know what "curing" means tbh, and the canna smells like chemical candy from 7-11; "smell that, you weed doesn't smell like that". Hahaha thank you very much, I'm glad for that and OH I guess they didn't try any organically grown Blackberry Kush or Purple Kush or whatever berry strain I have in my jar.

My point is, organics will grow in popularity just like organic veggies and grass fed beef did. Sooner than later, did you take a look at the prices for that "juice" at the hydro store? I'd be having to pay $700-$1000 a round for that crap, unless it's going to make a 3-4 fold increase in yield (and it wont), no way no how is this financially sustainable, and that's not mentioning bio-sustainability.

With that margin in cost of chems/hydro (not counting all the extra work) in comparison to organics its just a matter of time, at the end of the day costs of operation will run the market. We already have stores selling stuff for soil growers. It's called the feed store or your local garden nursery. I can get most everything I need to grow locally, if we lived farther out in the country there's even more options at the feed stores. I do have to send out for neem tho!! neemresource.com way cheaper and better than local so worth it for me.