Bassman59's 1st Grow - DWC/LED - Pray For Me!

[Mr. Krip]

I just went back and confirmed you are using R/O water. I asked because your plants look like they have a cal-mag deficiency. Note the yellowing between the leaf veins (called "intervenal banding") which is a sign of this. If you're using R/O, you should add some cal-mag.

 

[Bassman59]

Bass, are you using R/O water?

I just made a change to it with this rez change and chiller install. Per suggestion from Advanced Nutrients.

I was using straight R/O water, 6 gals.

The change was 5 gals R/O, 1 Gal 400ppm hard ass tap water. (per tub)

Now I added 1 more gal of tap to make up for the chiller tank.

My PPM's were about 400 in the main tub (both are under same nutrient/water now). The ppm now is about 1000.

My thoughts were nute lockout due to PH swings and/or possibly spraying too often.

Currently I'm thinking with the addition of the hard water I'll get more cal-mag and with the more stable ph it'll uptake and not be in lockout.

Hope that answers ya krip.

 

[Bassman59]

I just went back and confirmed you are using R/O water. I asked because your plants look like they have a cal-mag deficiency. Note the yellowing between the leaf veins (called "intervenal banding") which is a sign of this. If you're using R/O, you should add some cal-mag.

haha, I typed above before I saw this post.

take a look at my previous post. Sounds like I'm on the right track ya?

+rep sir

 

[Mr. Krip]

YES, you are on the right track!

That 400 PPM water should have PLENTY of cal-mag and by diluting 5:1 you'r ensuring it's under 100 PPM to start, which is fine!

 

[Mr. Krip]

BTW...I don't believe nute lockout...there's just NO cal-mag in the R/O water (R/O removes them!) and they don't put them in the nutes, either. So, when using R/O you typically need to add them back in.

 

[4twenty4all]

BTW...I don't believe nute lockout...there's just NO cal-mag in the R/O water (R/O removes them!) and they don't put them in the nutes, either. So, when using R/O you typically need to add them back in.

You are the wise one! So many people that use R/O water forget or don't know this and mistake it for lockout and ruin their harvest. Glad you brought that up!

 

[Bassman59]

The AN nutes do have cal-mag in them. I dont know what the numbers mean in terms of proper amounts though.

Having said that, I only just switched to AN with this res change.

Looking at the GH nutes that that one plant received does show a much smaller number for both cal-mag.

I think the combination of AN nutes and adding some tap is the trick.

I meant lockout on the nutes referring to cal-mag uptake during bad ph swings. However, there probably just wasnt enough in those nutes with R/O water to make a difference either. Interestingly however, the other 3 plants in that tub don't show the signs this one does.

We shall see. The next few days may tell me lots to confirm Krip's thoughts too.

 

[Jozo-sha]

BTW...I don't believe nute lockout...there's just NO cal-mag in the R/O water (R/O removes them!) and they don't put them in the nutes, either. So, when using R/O you typically need to add them back in.

I'm wondering if, with mine, I didn't add enough cal-mag, I'm only dosing 5ml/gal....

 

[4twenty4all]

I'm wondering if, with mine, I didn't add enough cal-mag, I'm only dosing 5ml/gal....

When I did hydro I only gave cal-mag once or twice in veg and then just every-other week in flower.

Bassman59 is also correct.... You can lock out mag with PH swings and too low of a PH. This is where good testing equipment comes in handy as long as you keep it all calibrated!

 

[Bassman59]

Jozo, As you know I'm the nublet here, so take it accordingly.

I dont know diddly about soil as when I decided to go hydro I stopped reading anything to do with soil. That being said, I think having testors is paramount. And from what I understand test strips are not as reliable.

Also as we are learning, nutrients dont have a ton of cal-mag and R/O removes any that was in the water. I have no idea what amount should be added per gal, but I'm sure you can find that info.

I did look at my chart, and for soil, it looks like (I could be wrong) the ph range for cal-mag uptake is 6.5-7.0 or so. Thusly if you are out of that range, it may also be possible your added cal-mag isnt being used up. I'd look into getting the proper testor(s) and keep a good eye on PH. Make sure it's in range. It doesnt matter how much you add if it's out of range, the plants wont take it.

Hope this gives you ideas.

 

[Mr. Krip]

When I did hydro I only gave cal-mag once or twice in veg and then just every-other week in flower.

Bassman59 is also correct.... You can lock out mag with PH swings and too low of a PH. This is where good testing equipment comes in handy as long as you keep it all calibrated!

I agree 100%, although with hydro, it's more likely to "lock out" CA & MN at too HIGH a PH. That being said, as a general rule, if you're using R/O, you should be adding cal-mag. Keeping PH in check is a MUST for all growing conditions, nutes, and mediums (proper PH may vary based on medium!).

 

[Mr. Krip]

Jozo, As you know I'm the nublet here, so take it accordingly.

I dont know diddly about soil as when I decided to go hydro I stopped reading anything to do with soil. That being said, I think having testors is paramount. And from what I understand test strips are not as reliable.

Also as we are learning, nutrients dont have a ton of cal-mag and R/O removes any that was in the water. I have no idea what amount should be added per gal, but I'm sure you can find that info.

I did look at my chart, and for soil, it looks like (I could be wrong) the ph range for cal-mag uptake is 6.5-7.0 or so. Thusly if you are out of that range, it may also be possible your added cal-mag isnt being used up. I'd look into getting the proper testor(s) and keep a good eye on PH. Make sure it's in range. It doesnt matter how much you add if it's out of range, the plants wont take it.

Hope this gives you ideas.

Bass, your doing great for a "nublet"!

Here is a chart showing nutrient availability:

It shows the RANGES that the nutrients are available, and you can see that CA is absorbed in soil right between 6.5 and 7.5 PH. MN is between 5.5 and 6.5, or so.

I'm a big fan of this chart and have showed it to numerous people explaining exactly what you did as a way to emphasize the importance of maintaining proper PH.

However, it takes time for lockout to occur. PH has to be way out of range, or out of range for some period of time before lockout occurs.

Also, most nutrients are "chelated" which allows them to be ingested at a much wider PH range than is shown on the chart.

So, your points are all valid, but under these circumstances I just don't believe it was lockout.

Your PH test strips won't be as accurate as a digital meter (I mean, can you really tell the difference between 6.1 and 6.2 from the test strips? )

But, it should get you close enough to be in the proper PH range, and you don't need to worry about calibrating the strips! (I use a meter, so I'm not recommending the strips, just saying, they'll get you close enough to "rock & roll"!)

As 4twenty pointed out, the need to add cal-mag back to R/O water is pretty well known among growers using R/O (I don't use R/O but am very aware of the issue!).

 

[Jozo-sha]

Jozo, As you know I'm the nublet here, so take it accordingly.

I dont know diddly about soil as when I decided to go hydro I stopped reading anything to do with soil. That being said, I think having testors is paramount. And from what I understand test strips are not as reliable.

Also as we are learning, nutrients dont have a ton of cal-mag and R/O removes any that was in the water. I have no idea what amount should be added per gal, but I'm sure you can find that info.

I did look at my chart, and for soil, it looks like (I could be wrong) the ph range for cal-mag uptake is 6.5-7.0 or so. Thusly if you are out of that range, it may also be possible your added cal-mag isnt being used up. I'd look into getting the proper testor(s) and keep a good eye on PH. Make sure it's in range. It doesnt matter how much you add if it's out of range, the plants wont take it.

Hope this gives you ideas.

I agree 100%, although with hydro, it's more likely to "lock out" CA & MN at too HIGH a PH. That being said, as a general rule, if you're using R/O, you should be adding cal-mag. Keeping PH in check is a MUST for all growing conditions, nutes, and mediums (proper PH may vary based on medium!).

Bass, your doing great for a "nublet"!

Here is a chart showing nutrient availability:

It shows the RANGES that the nutrients are available, and you can see that CA is absorbed in soil right between 6.5 and 7.5 PH. MN is between 5.5 and 6.5, or so.

I'm a big fan of this chart and have showed it to numerous people explaining exactly what you did as a way to emphasize the importance of maintaining proper PH.

However, it takes time for lockout to occur. PH has to be way out of range, or out of range for some period of time before lockout occurs.

Also, most nutrients are "chelated" which allows them to be ingested at a much wider PH range than is shown on the chart.

So, your points are all valid, but under these circumstances I just don't believe it was lockout.

Your PH test strips won't be as accurate as a digital meter (I mean, can you really tell the difference between 6.1 and 6.2 from the test strips? )

But, it should get you close enough to be in the proper PH range, and you don't need to worry about calibrating the strips! (I use a meter, so I'm not recommending the strips, just saying, they'll get you close enough to "rock & roll"!)

As 4twenty pointed out, the need to add cal-mag back to R/O water is pretty well known among growers using R/O (I don't use R/O but am very aware of the issue!).

Thanks for all that; I've been operating under the premise that soil is a great buffer of pH, and water pH isn't as much of an issue, as long as it's not sky high in hardness (60-100ppm). I suppose I'll dig out the cheap ass pH meter I have (the Hanna), calibrate it and see WTF is up.

Thanks again for your help, and for what it's work, I'm more of a nublet than many of you.

 

[Bassman59]

Mr Krip, Thats the chart I was using. I have it tacked to my wall. I was also rounding down since it was just over the line.

That being said, my most important "learn" this week was probably about R/O water, PH lockouts, and cal-mag.

I really do like the idea of adding the tap water at 5:1. Hopefully it saves me from spending more damn $$ on this grow buying Cal-Mag.

As always, thanks for everyones input!

 

[Mr. Krip]

Thanks for all that; I've been operating under the premise that soil is a great buffer of pH, and water pH isn't as much of an issue, as long as it's not sky high in hardness (60-100ppm). I suppose I'll dig out the cheap ass pH meter I have (the Hanna), calibrate it and see WTF is up.

Thanks again for your help, and for what it's work, I'm more of a nublet than many of you.

Jozo, then you may have found your issue! If you haven't been PH'ing, I wouldn't be surprised to see some lockout issues. Your water/nute PH is important, but your soil PH is also important.

You should test the PH of your nute solution, then water, and then test the PH of the runoff. That will tell you if your soil is raising or lowering the PH, and if the PH of the runoff is out of range, you know you have an issue.

I'm not a soil grower, but I believe you can add sulfur or lime to the soil to adjust soil PH, if needed.

 

[Jozo-sha]

Sorry for hijacking this journal. I'll just add that I don't add any nutes to my water. It's just been cal-mag, molasses, and Snow Storm Ultra. Maybe that's my problem; but I thought this soil would be the stuff to use without having to add any nutes.

Any further replies, over in my journal - sorry Bassman!

 

[Bassman59]

Sorry for hijacking this journal. I'll just add that I don't add any nutes to my water. It's just been cal-mag, molasses, and Snow Storm Ultra. Maybe that's my problem; but I thought this soil would be the stuff to use without having to add any nutes.

Any further replies, over in my journal - sorry Bassman!

No worries at all Jozo. I learn from it all too. You're most welcome to chat here as it is on topic anyways.

 

[ggrant]

Hey Bassman,

Amazing setup! I meant to add a comment a couple of days before, but so many people have posted since then, I'm not sure if this is still relevant.

It looks like you've had the girls vegging for about a month. Is that right? Since this is your first grow, you probably want to sample the fruits of your labor as soon as possible.

Let the girls enjoy a couple of more weeks of childhood before you (de)flower them. A 20% increase in height will increase the volume by 70%. Well worth waiting for in my opinion.

I think most people veg their girls for about six weeks. After you flower them, they still grow, but not nearly as much as during the veg stage, and at end end of flowering, they don't grow in height anymore, just in bud volume.

 

[Bassman59]

Thanks for comin in Grant. Enjoy the ride!

The main plant is on day 27 of veg. The rest are at day 13. I just fimmed 5 of the babies and topped one. I may start 12/12 in about 9 days or so. We'll see.

* I also need to decide on clones/seeds and next grow. I want to make sure I'm far enough along on grow 2 when harvest comes on these, that I can drop into the tubs with a head start. But flowering time being 7-9 weeks that makes it tough on cloning.

 

[4twenty4all]

I agree 100%, although with hydro, it's more likely to "lock out" CA & MN at too HIGH a PH. That being said, as a general rule, if you're using R/O, you should be adding cal-mag. Keeping PH in check is a MUST for all growing conditions, nutes, and mediums (proper PH may vary based on medium!).

Isn't it crazy how different hydro and soil are in regards to PH and nutrient requirements? Low PH in soil and High PH in hydro are bad...I love this plant!