Bagseed Grow - TD Hydro under LED's

[Tead]

Day ~30Veg 31Flowering

Mother and Ice

Mother Bud1

Mother Bud2

Ice

Overview1

Overview2

Clone1

Clone2

Clone3

Notice the slightly curled leaf edges?

Cheers!

 

[Tead]

Just got my airpump and airstones. I'll be very curious to see what difference they make.

Cheers

 

[TorturedSoul]

A story of PH, pens, and juice

So, I was measuring PH with papers. Then I got a PH Pen and some "Earth Juice Natural Down (granular).

Since I've started using the PH pens (yes, I ordered 2 different ones... never order after product testing), I've been making PH down adjustments at least daily, sometimes 3 times a day, in various amounts, ranging from a "pinch" to a tsp.

It sure seems to me like I'm doing allot of PH adjustment.

Is this normal? Have I got some sort of imbalance somewhere?

Thoughts? Comments?

Wow, that's an awful lot of pH fluctuations. Might fix up a couple of things that you know WON'T change pH-wise and check them a couple of times per day for a week to make sure that your meter isn't off in its own little world.

If it checks out as being stable then... WOW, that's an awful lot of pH fluctuations lol.

You might consider going with General Hydroponics' three-part Flora series (Micro, Grow, and Bloom). I know there have been many, many more nutrients hit the market since GH and I suppose that some may well be better - they sure seem to sell a lot of them - but a person can manage on just them and a little cal-mag (although you may well find that things go even better with certain additives). I've read that GH is used all over the world (including Antarctica) and in space. Whether that's true or not, I don't know.

What I do know is that there isn't much in the way of pH fluctuations with GH. Sure, you'll notice a gradual shift as your girls consume nutrients, but a little bit of Bloom tends to pretty much offset that while it extends the longevity of your nutrient solution (someone was heard to say that they would alternate a mild Bloom solution and plain water when they topped off their recirculating reservoir and that they doubled the time in between reservoir changes that way).

Just a thought.

Even if you don't give GH a try, you should be able to find a set of nutes/additives that act more-or-less the same way. That is to say that the only fluctuations you should get is a gradual change (in the same direction each time) as your plants use the nutrients - and that change should be correctable by adding a mild solution to your reservoir.

While pH modifiers have their place, if you are having to use them more often than when you mix up each fresh res, that would be a problem in my book.

Of course, all of that is just my opinion lol.

BtW - Your airpump/stones ought to make a difference. I don't think it's possible to give roots too much O2 (in any normal practical setup I mean lol). Someone used to think that his roots tried to eat every air stone/wand that he stuck in his reservoir.

EDIT: After you mix your solution, are you letting it set for a few hours (or even 12) before trying to adjust pH? If you are mixing it up, immediately adjusting pH, and then immediately using the mix... THAT might have something to do with it.

 

[Tead]

TorturedSoul...
I am having and awful lot of PH flux.
I added 2 tsp of PH down yesterday, and already this morning I've added another tsp of ph down.
My meterS (did I mention that it's a bad idea to order gear after product testing?)
are on track. I've checked and adjusted them using a PH7 buffer solution.
I'm really thinking that the PH issue is not married to the neut levels. They don't seem to have a relationship, and when I study the numbers and charts, I see no relationship (neither direct nor inverse).
My real suspicion is that the PH issue is being caused by the small reservoir size. The working capacity is only about 5 to 6 gal.
Your edit mentions an interesting note... I have, in fact, been applying the PH down directly to the water in the tank. I'm using Earthjuice. Should I be mixing the ph down into water before I put it in the tank? If so, why.... seems like the same thing. Perhaps there are some finer points I'm missing.
I'm also adding neuts directly into the tank.
Am I somehow shooting myself in the foot?


Cheers

 

[Tead]

further thoughts....

I have not been using any CalMag. I've read everywhere about folks using it, and I've just ordered some. I also picked up some "Flora Shield" system rinse and some "Awesome Blossoms" bloom booster (2-11-11).

Currently, the only substances going into my water are "Ionic Bloom" and "Earth Juice PH Down" .

I think I'm going to dump the tank and start with fresh water. I'm very unsure about how to mix the Ionic Bloom (3-2-6) and the Awesome Blossom (2-11-11). Does anyone have any input here?

Right now, I'm planning to dump the tank, refill with fresh water, adjust PH, add Flora Shield (1part to 100parts), run the tank for 4 hours, add neuts (both base and Awesome Blossoms). Tho I'm not sure how to mix the neuts, I'm thinking that for every 4 tsp of base neut (Ionic Bloom) and 1 tsp of bloom booster (Awesome Blossoms).

Thougts or opinions?


Cheers!

 

[TorturedSoul]

I am having and awful lot of PH flux.
I added 2 tsp of PH down yesterday, and already this morning I've added another tsp of ph down.

I'm really thinking that the PH issue is not married to the neut levels. They don't seem to have a relationship, and when I study the numbers and charts, I see no relationship (neither direct nor inverse).

That's pretty crazy, I can't help but wonder if you followed the exact same procedure that you've been following with the single exception being that you didn't stick your plants in it, would you still be having this pH nightmare?

Things like pH have a relationship with whatever causes them. In my mind it would generally be one of three things: Your plants are feeding off of the solution, causing the ratio of nutes::solution to change; the water in the solution is evaporating, causing the ratio of nutes::solution to change; the solution is unstable and changing over time.

My real suspicion is that the PH issue is being caused by the small reservoir size. The working capacity is only about 5 to 6 gal.

That is pretty small. The again, someone was heard muttering in line at the Quickie Mart that when they used to run a recirculating setup - basically a 9 gallon tote with enough airstones, bubblers, and one of those aquarium pump things that sucked up water and spat it back into the tank with lots of bubbles/O2 - that they never had any fluctuations like that other than the previously mentioned gradual shift as the girls fed (and that being quickly and easily corrected with GH Bloom). And that 9 gallon tote, as it was being used to host plants growing in a rather large SCROG, got so full of roots that by the 75% mark it probably WAS a 5-6 gallon res (if that lol)

Your edit mentions an interesting note... I have, in fact, been applying the PH down directly to the water in the tank. I'm using Earthjuice. Should I be mixing the ph down into water before I put it in the tank? If so, why.... seems like the same thing. Perhaps there are some finer points I'm missing.
I'm also adding neuts directly into the tank.
Am I somehow shooting myself in the foot?

I have not been using any CalMag. I've read everywhere about folks using it, and I've just ordered some. I also picked up some "Flora Shield" system rinse and some "Awesome Blossoms" bloom booster (2-11-11).

Currently, the only substances going into my water are "Ionic Bloom" and "Earth Juice PH Down" .

I think I'm going to dump the tank and start with fresh water. I'm very unsure about how to mix the Ionic Bloom (3-2-6) and the Awesome Blossom (2-11-11). Does anyone have any input here?

Right now, I'm planning to dump the tank, refill with fresh water, adjust PH, add Flora Shield (1part to 100parts), run the tank for 4 hours, add neuts (both base and Awesome Blossoms). Tho I'm not sure how to mix the neuts, I'm thinking that for every 4 tsp of base neut (Ionic Bloom) and 1 tsp of bloom booster (Awesome Blossoms).

Thougts or opinions?

Always lots of the latter, occasionally a few of the former lol.

Unless your water's pH is SO BAD that if you didn't adjust it before adding any nutes you would have problems with your nutes precipitating out of solution if you tried to mix things up without doing so, I would stop doing it that way (at least try it once). In my mind you are shooting yourself in the foot but as always, I could be wrong.

For one, you aren't giving any time at all for things to stabilize. That's why I made the comment about doing everything the way you are doing now with the exception of the plants & wondering if you'd notice the exact same problems.

Also, at least with some nute mixtures, mixing things in the wrong order can cause things to precipitate out of solution and it's practically impossible to get them to redissolve on their own.

Try this:

Say you have a 6 gallon reservoir. Go get a container big enough to hold the entire 6 gallons. If you can't find one you can probably come up with a couple of 3 gallon water jugs, whatever.

Add the amount of water that you would need to change your res. If using straight tap water, allow it to set uncovered for 12 hours so the chlorine and any other dissolved gasses can evaporate (very important). If using pure H2O, you can skip the wait.

Mix your nutes into the water before trying to adjust for pH. Always keep in mind that anything you add to water is going to affect its pH. Remember to shake the daylights out of it as you are mixing it up.

Then allow your mixed nute solution to just sit there for several hours (overnight wouldn't hurt).

While it is "aging," now would be a good time to flush your reservoir (don't forget the root medium that your plants are sitting in, there could possibly be some salts getting into the solution from your "cups." 12 hours with no nutes isn't going to kill them, IMHO, especially after the abuse they've been suffering (not that you've been purposely hurting them, but those mad pH fluctuations... whenever it shifted out of the golden range the plants were unable to eat lol).

So... Your nute solution has sat long enough to stabilize. NOW is the time to make your pH adjustment. Make SMALL adjustments, again shake the crap out of your solution and let it set for a bit (hour or two at least) before trying to make more of an adjustment. You can of course check the pH right away but don't assume the measurement you get is the final pH of the solution.

Ok, so your reservoir AND the plants' roots/cups have been flushed of any salt buildup that might have been there. Your nutrient solution was made with stabilized water and it itself was allowed to stabilize before you tried to adjust it. You used a very gentle hand when making the adjustments and allowed for stabilization when you did so as to get true readings and make true adjustments.

Dump your "flushed" reservoir and fill it with your solution.

Report back and let us know how that worked for you.

NOTE: I agree, the above procedure seems like a royal pain lol, but you of course won't need to do the flushing every time - and they probably needed it this time. Also, mixing up your solution in something besides your actual reservoir will end up having benefits. You can do it before you actually need to make the change.

In addition... If you are topping off your res in between changes (I would assume so), keep in mind that since everything affects pH, you can actually make small changes with your nutes/additives. That of course takes trial and error but if you get it figured out for your particular nutes, you can do a lot to avoid the pH rebound affect.

Yeah, cal-mag is a good thing if your plants are using more mag then your nutes supply but keep in mind that the "cal" in cal-mag is calcium and if you've already got a bunch then it could cause problems. Just something else to keep in mind lol.

Sorry I wrote "War and Peace" here. I haven't gotten around to reassembling my mind after last night yet.

I hope this helps, and Good luck!

 

[Tead]

Thanks TorturedSoul!!!
No need at all to apologize for the epic novel... more info is almost always better than less.
I am using RO water, so I don't feel the need to wait for JUST the water. The water has a PH of 7.5 and a TDS of 200(ish) coming out of the tap.
I set up a water change this morning by adding the appropriate amount of Flora Shield to a bucket of water. I added a little bit of PH down to drop the ph to the lower 6's. I added the Flora Shield mx to the tank.

The directions on the Flora Shield say to let it run thru the system for a few hours, then add neuts. I've decided to dump the Flora Shield water and go with a fresh fill and I've got a bucket of water curing with neuts in it as I write. I'm going to let the Flora Shield run thru for 6 hours while the neut water settles. Currently, I've put 5 tsp of the Awesome Blossom to the mix and it's at 460 TDS with a PH of 7.7. I'm planning to add some of my Ionic Bloom to the mix to bring it up to 975ish TDS in an hour or two and adjust the PH. Then, later this evening, I'll dump the Flora Shield water and replace it with the neut water.

I like your idea about the dry run, but it's not really practical unless you have a 2nd setup or you're between grows. I'll try it when this grow has ended. I've always been a fan of imperical scientific data rather than hunches and intuition. As such, I'll be very curious to compare the situation to a dry run. Seems like the only way to get real data.

Thoughts on CalMag.... is there an easy way to determine how much calcium is already in your water? I'm using RO, so I'm not sure if the water would have anything in it, but my TDS says 200 for tap, so something has to be in there... perhaps I've found the source of Dark Matter!!!

Cheers.. and thanks again!!!

 

[Tead]

Here's a copy of my PH chart. I switched from paper to PH pens at point 34. Each number on the bottom of the charts represents 1/3 of the daily sample. I sample 3 times a day, morning, noon, and night.

Cheers

 

[Tead]

Status.... Neut water that will go in later this afternoon is currently at 1000 TDS and a PH of 6.4.
We'll see where the numbers are at after a few hours and then swap the water.

Cheers!

 

[TorturedSoul]

I am using RO water, so I don't feel the need to wait for JUST the water.

Make sense to me.

The directions on the Flora Shield say to let it run thru the system for a few hours, then add neuts. I've decided to dump the Flora Shield water and go with a fresh fill and I've got a bucket of water curing with neuts in it as I write. I'm going to let the Flora Shield run thru for 6 hours while the neut water settles

Again, makes sense to me. If the stuff is supposed to dissolve salts from your setup, why keep them in there by adding nutes lol?

Assuming that any ongoing pH fluctuations in your "stabilizing" solution don't become so extreme that they cause a precipitation (and I doubt that they will), I'm hoping that when you finally DO adjust the pH of it - and let it set for a while after that - and add it to your res that you won't have nearly as much fluctuation afterwards.

Currently, I've put 5 tsp of the Awesome Blossom to the mix and it's at 460 TDS with a PH of 7.7. I'm planning to add some of my Ionic Bloom to the mix to bring it up to 975ish TDS in an hour or two and adjust the PH. Then, later this evening, I'll dump the Flora Shield water and replace it with the neut water.

Keeping things slow and steady allows you to measure what adding each component does to your pH. Who knows (not I, I have not used your particular recipe), you might even figure out what affect each component has on your pH and be able to use the knowledge to make things go longer, smoother, and healthier for the plants in between changes.

I like your idea about the dry run, but it's not really practical unless you have a 2nd setup or you're between grows. I'll try it when this grow has ended. I've always been a fan of imperical scientific data rather than hunches and intuition. As such, I'll be very curious to compare the situation to a dry run. Seems like the only way to get real data.

You kind of already ARE doing the "dry run" by mixing your stuff ahead of time lol. Think about it. You could even drop an airstone into whatever you've got them sitting in if you want to add O2. The voice that I hear muttering about this stuff whenever I am in fast food joints and convienence stores never did because his "jugs" were large enough that he could fill them halfway and then shake the daylights out of them (causing much surface to air disturbance). Then again, he might have once let one of those jugs slip out of his hand mid-shake and I don't need to tell you what 2 1/2 gallons of solution weighs or what it can do when the jug it is in is launched at the little lady's floor-to-ceiling (glass) display shelves full of her most prized "nick-nacks" lmfao!

Thoughts on CalMag.... is there an easy way to determine how much calcium is already in your water? I'm using RO, so I'm not sure if the water would have anything in it, but my TDS says 200 for tap, so something has to be in there.

Be glad your water source isn't a 100-year old well in bad condition lol.

You can do a fleabay search for Hannah hardness - seems like there's a buy it now item for like $11. I think most of the "hardness" would be calcium and the like but I'm no scientist even though I've had my moments.

 

[TorturedSoul]

Oh, if you are getting municipal water as opposed to getting it from a well on your property, you should be able to take a sample to them and get it tested either for free or for just the cost of the test.

Actually, that's something that I recommend EVERYONE do since while not everyone grows, most everybody drinks (or at least washes dishes/clothes/themselves) the stuff.

You can have a look at... water dash research dot net slash hardness dot htm if you like. Hope that one didn't break the rules. They definitely aren't selling a product that would be in conflict with a sponsor lol.

 

[Tead]

In the middle of a water change... pardon the brevity.
Interesting to note that the PH of the water/Flora Shield mixture before I put it in the tank was 6.2
The PH of the mixture when I dumped the tank was 7.5
TDS stayed in the low 200's

Cheers

 

[Tead]

allllllllrighty then....
water changed. PH of water before it went in the tank was 6.2. PH of water in tank 1/2 after it was filled is also 6.2. So far, so good.

Process....
Dumped tank. Mixed Flora Shied per directions (1 part per 100). Added 5 Gal of mix to tank and ran it for several hours while the neut mix cured.
Added 4 Gal RO tap water to empty/clean 5 gal bucket.
Added Awesome Blossom to bring TDS from 250 to 550. Adjusted the TDS up from there to 950 with Ionic Bloom. Let the mix set for a few hours.
Dumped Flora Shied mix
Put 4 Gallons of neut mix into tank. Topped off with PH adjusted tap water (4qts) to bring the tank to 5 Gal. Adjusted TDS with some additional Awesome Blossom and Ionic Bloom.

TorturedSoul... you raise a good point about the test run, but I don't think I'd have any faith in the results unless the test was a full on replication of the real setup. I'm kind of a data-snob. I'm really hoping that the new mix applied post system flush will stabilize the situation without me trying to track down some wierd issue. Perhaps a bit optomistic.... but it sure would be nice.

"when the jug it is in is launched at the little lady's floor-to-ceiling (glass) display shelves full of her most prized "nick-nacks"
Nice! I dropped an open jar of Mayo on the floor once and the concussion on the jar propelled the contents (almost entirely!) directly onto the ceiling. It was one of the strangest things I'd ever seen. No real damage, but it sure was a classic moment.


Cheers!

 

[Tead]

A note about the previous tank of water...
When I first setup the last tank of water, I over PH Downed it because I'm new to all this and I had my head up my rectum. Anyway, I adjusted it back up with baking soda in a frantic frenzy. I wonder if that somehow caused my PH issues. Is it possible that the baking soda didn't all disolve into the water and being released over time? Perhaps baking soda is evil.
hmmmmmmm.... curiouser and curiouser.

Cheers.

 

[Tead]

Yet another random thing I feel I should mention....
I have a light layer of brownish algea over the surface of the tank. I assume this is the normal result of combining neuts, water, and heat. It's very light, except at the water line where it tends to build up as it dries out. It's barely noticable visibly against the white background of the tank, but you can feel it's slipperiness with your fingers.
Seems like a natural thing to me... yes?

 

[Tyrone Hamilton]

Yet another random thing I feel I should mention....
I have a light layer of brownish algea over the surface of the tank. I assume this is the normal result of combining neuts, water, and heat. It's very light, except at the water line where it tends to build up as it dries out. It's barely noticable visibly against the white background of the tank, but you can feel it's slipperiness with your fingers.
Seems like a natural thing to me... yes?

I'd change the water and wipe down the tank if it was anything but clear, clean, and sweet smelling...

 

[Tead]

Final check for the night... PH at 5.9, TDS at 969.
I'll be very curious to see what tomorrow will bring.

Obxgardener, I just did a run of Flora Shield. It's supposed to take care of algea and what not. I'll keep an eye out to see if it returns. Do you think that algea growth would have a dramatic effect on PH levels?

Cheers

 

[TorturedSoul]

I'd recommend anything that's not supposed to be there. Then again, I happen to know someone who once used a clear (except for the lid) res and due to circumstances he never really got around to removing his rather healthy crop of algae lol. His roots seemed to like the company (not really, more like they didn't really notice). Final harvest might have been affected, who knows? At the time I'd guess that it was just a hobby.

 

[Tyrone Hamilton]

Final check for the night... PH at 5.9, TDS at 969.
I'll be very curious to see what tomorrow will bring.

Obxgardener, I just did a run of Flora Shield. It's supposed to take care of algea and what not. I'll keep an eye out to see if it returns. Do you think that algea growth would have a dramatic effect on PH levels?

Cheers

The algae might be a complete non-issue, or it could be some strain that affects your plants... I'd just clean the system.

 

[Tead]

Thanks all. I'm in a very warm and humid climate. Things just grow like crazy, including mosses and algeas. I suspect I'll always have some sort of algea issue, but I'm armed with the Flora Shield to take an occasional shot at the growing demons.

On a related note, we're very early in the year, and I'm already concerned about the issues related to heat (like algea growth). This is a soft cabinet in an outside, way non-isulated out-building. I imagine that the overall best way for me to cool my setup (with the small res and the inability to stop heat transfer) would be to chill the water. I might put together a creative cooling device... hmmmmmmm...

alas I ramble....

Cheers