Want work with ocean forest. Got to use happy frog. But can't first 2 weeks of life
Aspen's Alaskan Purple In Soil - 2022
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AspenCultivator
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Thanks for coming in 7Dust. I always appreciate everyone's opinion! So you're only using calmag twice or so during a grow? Once in the middle and then again at a higher dose towards the end?
Right now I've been waiting for the cups to weigh as much as a dry cup I have in the tent. I use my kitchen scale and when it's around 10-20 grams from the dry cup weight I water. I was more asking for in this particular situation where everyone is agreeing they need nutes, would I wait until they need watered again (dry cycle) to feed, or since they're behind in nutes instead of waiting this time for the cups to go dry, should I feed early? Then go back to the wet/dry cycle.
I appreciate that! If I run into any issues I'll definitely give you a tag, thanks! When do you start feeding nutes in FFHF soil using the Dirty Dozen?
I was of the same impression. @Emilya Green mentioned this in her watering thread as well that testing soil runoff isn't necessarily needed, but I did it anyway as a way to find out how hot the soil actually is.
As far as feeding according to the schedule, it would appear there are so many differing opinions on this I can't pin down a solid answer. Some say to wait 2-3 weeks before first feed, some say to start the schedule immediately but at 1/4 dose. I was trying to wait until " she tells me what she needs" so here we are.
I don't do complicated. Bro . I mean that laughing.. FF is pH balanced. Only PH need to worry is water PH. Normal plant will take all nutes in a cup in about 7-9 days u give it what it needs in bigger pot. Say 5 gallon. Which is plenty of nutes for a natural no need chem grow for about 2 months . Just watering it. No chems at all. Add calmag twice say 30 days. At flip to flowering again in middle of flowering an again few weeks before it's done at 60. If 79 days add a dose to reach 79. And ur golden. I use 1/4 bag of ocean to 1 bag of happy. It's perfect.mix. but seedling will not grow in anything higher of ocean forest. Alone. It will burn it or u might get lucky once.
So, you have two conflicting issues.
One is your soil is wet which can lead to rotting roots if it doesn't dry out quickly enough. If the roots die they can't supply the plant with whatever food is in the soil.
But, the second is you have a hungry plant that is being fed with liquid fertilizer so watering them in exacerbates the wet soil issue.
If it were an organic grow you could just top dress with some dry nutes and let the microbes do their thing, but it's not.
I see a few things you could do.
One is to foliar feed some diluted nutes which would be the quickest solution without compounding the wet soil issue.
Two, you could put the pots on a heat mat which will dry out the soil faster,
Or three, you could water in your nutes and just reset the clock. If you did this, just do a little bit, not soaking the pot entirely as your roots can't handle that yet.
And all of this is yet another reason I like growing in SIPs. The soil stays wetter but the extra air eliminates the problems that often come with that.
If it were me, I'd start with a foliar feed and put the pots on the heat mat until the soil is dry enough to water properly.
One is your soil is wet which can lead to rotting roots if it doesn't dry out quickly enough. If the roots die they can't supply the plant with whatever food is in the soil.
But, the second is you have a hungry plant that is being fed with liquid fertilizer so watering them in exacerbates the wet soil issue.
If it were an organic grow you could just top dress with some dry nutes and let the microbes do their thing, but it's not.
I see a few things you could do.
One is to foliar feed some diluted nutes which would be the quickest solution without compounding the wet soil issue.
Two, you could put the pots on a heat mat which will dry out the soil faster,
Or three, you could water in your nutes and just reset the clock. If you did this, just do a little bit, not soaking the pot entirely as your roots can't handle that yet.
And all of this is yet another reason I like growing in SIPs. The soil stays wetter but the extra air eliminates the problems that often come with that.
If it were me, I'd start with a foliar feed and put the pots on the heat mat until the soil is dry enough to water properly.
lootznbootz
Well-Known Member
Plants in Hydro or Soil have a PH range that they uptake nutrients in.
lockout can happen in a soil grow or a hydro grow.
The reason for checking the PH range of your runoff is to see if you have a lockout same as you would in hydro
the only difference is that you can't adjust it in soil as you can with hydro.
This is why I say hydro is so unforgiving. If your soil is out of range, you can correct it at the next watering.
It also like azi said gives you an idea of what the plant is up taking as far as nutrients.
I'm working on my own massive update I know I left you hanging looking for information. But I've had ALOT going on.
You SHOULD be adjusting your water just before watering whether you're in soil or not if your using bottled nutes you should especially be adjusting.
This is from a local shop owner of 12+ years. If after you mix up your nutes your PH is in range, then no adjustment is necessary (which is what I found I did in previous grows where I didn't PH). But regardless you should always be adjusting for PH.
I took this from a website I found online
If runoff pH is…
Looking at those runoffs your right where you want to be.
I also looked back over your journal. Your water source that's out the tap?
For me those numbers seem very low in ppm practically as low as my R/O water...
I saw someone say Cal/mag. maybe your water source needs to be supplemented a bit?
I usually don't feed this early as like you said the soil should have enough in it based on the ppm of your runoff.
But as I forgot with my own grow when using R/O (I am, you're not) and LED you should be supplementing Cal/mag
Again, testing the runoff has given you another tool in figuring out what is going on in the soil.
It seems to be NOTHING with what or how you're doing it. But were missing something to tell the entire picture.
lockout can happen in a soil grow or a hydro grow.
The reason for checking the PH range of your runoff is to see if you have a lockout same as you would in hydro
the only difference is that you can't adjust it in soil as you can with hydro.
This is why I say hydro is so unforgiving. If your soil is out of range, you can correct it at the next watering.
It also like azi said gives you an idea of what the plant is up taking as far as nutrients.
I'm working on my own massive update I know I left you hanging looking for information. But I've had ALOT going on.
You SHOULD be adjusting your water just before watering whether you're in soil or not if your using bottled nutes you should especially be adjusting.
This is from a local shop owner of 12+ years. If after you mix up your nutes your PH is in range, then no adjustment is necessary (which is what I found I did in previous grows where I didn't PH). But regardless you should always be adjusting for PH.
I took this from a website I found online
Soil
Water going in should be 6-7 pHIf runoff pH is…
- 6-7 pH – in the right range, no changes needed.
- Less than 6 – provide next watering at pH 7
- More than 7 – provide next watering at pH 6
- Continue this formula with each watering.
Looking at those runoffs your right where you want to be.
I also looked back over your journal. Your water source that's out the tap?
For me those numbers seem very low in ppm practically as low as my R/O water...
I saw someone say Cal/mag. maybe your water source needs to be supplemented a bit?
I usually don't feed this early as like you said the soil should have enough in it based on the ppm of your runoff.
But as I forgot with my own grow when using R/O (I am, you're not) and LED you should be supplementing Cal/mag
Again, testing the runoff has given you another tool in figuring out what is going on in the soil.
It seems to be NOTHING with what or how you're doing it. But were missing something to tell the entire picture.
See I don't do that. I put dirt in and add pH water of 6.3 and repeat. If water runs off. I clean it up so my humidity don't go threw the roof. U do that all the time.
All I use it's happy frog. From pop to chop
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- #68
AspenCultivator
Well-Known Member
That definitely doesn't sound complicated haha. I've read about ocean forest being really hot for seedlings so that's why I'm in happy frog right now. When I transplant I'm going to do bottom 2/3rd of pot ocean and top 1/3rd happy, both mixed with 20% perlite.
Azimuth, thank you! Should I be doing the spray at lights off? Or I can spray now and just raise the light/turn off for an hour or something? If I'm overthinking it just tell me!
On the heat mat they go, as well.
Doing it with lights on under a HPS light can burn the plants as the little drops can act as a lens. I grow under LEDs and don't really worry about it.
You could always pull the plants out from under the direct light, spray and wait an hour for the spray to dry before putting them back in if you're worried about it.
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- #70
AspenCultivator
Well-Known Member
Thanks Lootz, and no worries on your update!
In my quest for knowledge I've come across two schools of thought: every watering should be at 6.3, regardless of veg or flower, because of PH drift in the soil (over time?). Then you have: every watering should be a different PH as long as it's between 6.3-6.8. So with those two being said, which is correct?
That's interesting about the way to correct PH in runoff...I thought about that just last night when I saw #2 is at 6.2. I was thinking "Hmm, if I water with a higher PH next time, would that balance it out?!?" haha. So it's cool you posted about it today.
Yes, the water source is straight out of a tap. I have a unique situation where I'm in a neighborhood outside of a small country town, so we aren't on city water. Technically it's well water, but our neighborhood owns it's own water company so it gets treated before it reaches the homes. I'd have to dig back into the quality reports to see what they're putting in it.
As for the calmag, I didn't think I'd be needing it this early because the nute schedule includes that, starting at week 2 of veg. But I also don't exactly know if it's being provided in my water, so I didn't want to start using it and over-do it.
Emilya Green
Well-Known Member
As far as feeding or not, there are two different ways to go. You can either be a timid grower or you can garden like a boss. Your plants will respond accordingly, and if you aggressively feed right from the start, you will have bigger stronger plants than you would without doing that. That choice is totally up to you.
Lmao is that work. I hear. Oh heck nah. I'm retired I don't work.
heya friend,, wow,, you are gettin the advice here, indeed,, full monty for sure,,
i can see why you might be a bit confused, i can see cuz i am always confused so i can spot it
first pic i saw of the saturated solo cup i was perty sure i was gonna see some problems here. and i do
right from the get go,, a watering issue. forget the nutes,, a whole separate issue and not at all important to the cure without fixing the watering issue first.
throw away the syringe for watering,, the whole container must be watered for the roots to search and grow.
it truley is as simple as water fully, let drain and dry, and repeat when needed,, every three days or so,, when drained and dried properly
the soil has some nutrients already, least i think they are nutes,, hard to nail that down at the fox farm website,,
watering is a skill not easily mastered if it ever does get mastered. practice,
karma sent friend
i can see why you might be a bit confused, i can see cuz i am always confused so i can spot it
first pic i saw of the saturated solo cup i was perty sure i was gonna see some problems here. and i do
right from the get go,, a watering issue. forget the nutes,, a whole separate issue and not at all important to the cure without fixing the watering issue first.
throw away the syringe for watering,, the whole container must be watered for the roots to search and grow.
it truley is as simple as water fully, let drain and dry, and repeat when needed,, every three days or so,, when drained and dried properly
the soil has some nutrients already, least i think they are nutes,, hard to nail that down at the fox farm website,,
watering is a skill not easily mastered if it ever does get mastered. practice,
karma sent friend
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- #74
AspenCultivator
Well-Known Member
Thanks Emilya! It's a learning experience, so next time I'll be more diligent on the nutes.
Hey Nivek, thanks for dropping by! I have to disagree on it being a watering issue. I have a solo cup in the tent that's just soil, nothing growing, so it doesn't receive any water. It weighs 166g completely dry, depending on the humidity in there when I measure it. I wait until the cups weigh near the same...like, 180g or less before I water. They dry out completely before I water.
I only use the syringe so I can control the rate of water into the soil. I slowly press the plunger while circling around the plant, and also in different areas of the cup (tight to the stem and then out towards the rim of the cup). This is to make sure the entire container is full and saturated of water. I also wait some minutes (3-5 or so) before each syringe to give the soil time to soak up the water as opposed to it running straight out of the cup. Whether I use a syringe or a small cup, the method is the same in that I water, wait, water, wait, water, wait, until I get some runoff out of the cups. It usually takes 30-45 minutes to water both plants right now.
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- #75
AspenCultivator
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Day 15
I took @Azimuth 's advice and they received their first feed today in the form of a foliar spray. I posted the FF nute schedule (page 3 I believe) and started at a 1/4 dose. I also added calmag.
I mixed this in a 1/2 gallon container.
FF Big Bloom: 4ml
FF Boomerang: 1ml
FF Kangaroo: 0.3ml
Calmag: 1ml
PH Down: 0.5ml
PH before nutes: 8.2
PPM before nutes: 127
PH after nutes: 7.5
PH after PH down: 6.3
Total PPM: 300
I raised the light a foot and will keep it there for an hour or two, then lower back to where it was at 30". I also put them on a heating mat so I can try and dry them out faster for a proper water feeding next water.
I'm hoping to see some improvement in the next couple of days with this feed. Once they're completely dry and ready for water I'll feed them again and then go to feeding every other watering.
I took @Azimuth 's advice and they received their first feed today in the form of a foliar spray. I posted the FF nute schedule (page 3 I believe) and started at a 1/4 dose. I also added calmag.
I mixed this in a 1/2 gallon container.
FF Big Bloom: 4ml
FF Boomerang: 1ml
FF Kangaroo: 0.3ml
Calmag: 1ml
PH Down: 0.5ml
PH before nutes: 8.2
PPM before nutes: 127
PH after nutes: 7.5
PH after PH down: 6.3
Total PPM: 300
I raised the light a foot and will keep it there for an hour or two, then lower back to where it was at 30". I also put them on a heating mat so I can try and dry them out faster for a proper water feeding next water.
I'm hoping to see some improvement in the next couple of days with this feed. Once they're completely dry and ready for water I'll feed them again and then go to feeding every other watering.
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- #76
AspenCultivator
Well-Known Member
Day 18
Hi everyone. Growth is super slow, but still happening. There's nothing I can do here other than wait for them to dry out so I can properly feed via watering. As a reminder they haven't been water-fed yet, but did receive a foliar feed with 1/4 strength nutes from the Seedling week on the FF Soil nute schedule. That happened 3 days ago.
My empty soil cup weighs 155 grams, #1 weighs 220g, and #2 weighs 216g. Not ready for watering yet, even with the heat mat under them.
I don't really know what I'm going to do with these. I'm not in a position to buy new seeds yet, so these will just stay in the tent and I'll check on them every once in a while. Otherwise it is what it is and if they grow, great, if not, great.
The only other thing I did was lower the lights to 250 ppfd yesterday morning. They don't seem to be stressed from the light, so it'll stay there.
I'm hoping to water them in the next 2-3 days. Which is odd, because it's day 4 since they were last watered so I expected them to need it today. Nope, looks like a few more days before they're completely dry. This tells me they aren't drinking very much, which means they aren't growing. Pretty obvious when you compare pics from today to 3 days ago.
Thanks for coming in and all the advice everyone has given so far. I certainly appreciate it! I don't have high hopes for this grow but I'm not going to throw them out quite yet. I'm also not going to be checking them 2-3 times a day. I'll update when they receive their next watering in a few days.
Hi everyone. Growth is super slow, but still happening. There's nothing I can do here other than wait for them to dry out so I can properly feed via watering. As a reminder they haven't been water-fed yet, but did receive a foliar feed with 1/4 strength nutes from the Seedling week on the FF Soil nute schedule. That happened 3 days ago.
My empty soil cup weighs 155 grams, #1 weighs 220g, and #2 weighs 216g. Not ready for watering yet, even with the heat mat under them.
I don't really know what I'm going to do with these. I'm not in a position to buy new seeds yet, so these will just stay in the tent and I'll check on them every once in a while. Otherwise it is what it is and if they grow, great, if not, great.
The only other thing I did was lower the lights to 250 ppfd yesterday morning. They don't seem to be stressed from the light, so it'll stay there.
I'm hoping to water them in the next 2-3 days. Which is odd, because it's day 4 since they were last watered so I expected them to need it today. Nope, looks like a few more days before they're completely dry. This tells me they aren't drinking very much, which means they aren't growing. Pretty obvious when you compare pics from today to 3 days ago.
Thanks for coming in and all the advice everyone has given so far. I certainly appreciate it! I don't have high hopes for this grow but I'm not going to throw them out quite yet. I'm also not going to be checking them 2-3 times a day. I'll update when they receive their next watering in a few days.
I've lost track. Are these autos or photos?
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- #78
AspenCultivator
Well-Known Member
Feminized photos. At least 2 year old seed (I've had them for 2 years, no idea how old they were before I got them from the bank).
The theory I have that I can't find evidence for is this is happening because the enzymes within the cotyledons aren't as viable as fresh/properly stored seed. The seeds were in a pine box I built, 6" x 4" x 4" dimensions on the inside with a tight fitting lid at room temp. I imagine they've experience temp and humidity swings even inside the box through the seasons.
Maybe they'll take off after the first proper feed, so we'll see how they go when they need watered again as I'm going to feed them 1/2 strength for veg week 1.
The theory I have that I can't find evidence for is this is happening because the enzymes within the cotyledons aren't as viable as fresh/properly stored seed. The seeds were in a pine box I built, 6" x 4" x 4" dimensions on the inside with a tight fitting lid at room temp. I imagine they've experience temp and humidity swings even inside the box through the seasons.
Maybe they'll take off after the first proper feed, so we'll see how they go when they need watered again as I'm going to feed them 1/2 strength for veg week 1.
Well as least you can give them time to figure it out..
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- #80
AspenCultivator
Well-Known Member
Day 20
Hi everyone! I have a water update today, and I could finally feed properly. It's been 6 days since they were last watered and there isn't a whole lot of growth going on (or so it seems) so hopefully this feed will wake them up and get them going.
As a reminder: I'm dealing with 2 year old seed, not properly stored. Instead of feeding at day 14 I watered to collect enough runoff to test for problems as they were so small. I believe, seeing where they are now, they should have been fed during that watering. But hey, that's the cool thing about growing and experiencing this, so now I know next time that they most likely will need fed at day 14 watering and to just do it and not wait/waste so much time.
They received half strength veg week 1 nutes in a 1/2 gallon container. I still had a ton leftover and while it's a shame to pour it out, I only mixed 1/2 gallon so I'm not wasting an entire gallon.
FF Big Bloom: 7.5ml
FF Boomerang: 1.25ml
FF Kangaroots: 1.25ml
PH: 6.3
PPM: 350
Same watering technique as before, 10ml at a time and wait 4-5 minutes. Circling around the stem, then middle of the cup, outside of the cup, and back to the center with every 10ml. It took 90ml to get some runoff.
I've removed the heat mat from under them and now we wait to see how they respond to being fed.
Thanks for coming in!
Hi everyone! I have a water update today, and I could finally feed properly. It's been 6 days since they were last watered and there isn't a whole lot of growth going on (or so it seems) so hopefully this feed will wake them up and get them going.
As a reminder: I'm dealing with 2 year old seed, not properly stored. Instead of feeding at day 14 I watered to collect enough runoff to test for problems as they were so small. I believe, seeing where they are now, they should have been fed during that watering. But hey, that's the cool thing about growing and experiencing this, so now I know next time that they most likely will need fed at day 14 watering and to just do it and not wait/waste so much time.
They received half strength veg week 1 nutes in a 1/2 gallon container. I still had a ton leftover and while it's a shame to pour it out, I only mixed 1/2 gallon so I'm not wasting an entire gallon.
FF Big Bloom: 7.5ml
FF Boomerang: 1.25ml
FF Kangaroots: 1.25ml
PH: 6.3
PPM: 350
Same watering technique as before, 10ml at a time and wait 4-5 minutes. Circling around the stem, then middle of the cup, outside of the cup, and back to the center with every 10ml. It took 90ml to get some runoff.
I've removed the heat mat from under them and now we wait to see how they respond to being fed.
Thanks for coming in!