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I am gonna park these here so I can read em at will



Autoflower breeding

Plant breeding is the science of manipulating and changing various different traits and characteristics of a plant in order to get a more desirable outcome. This process in it’s simplest form is a selective plant cross-breeding to get an offspring with the traits that the grower wants. This process can happen over multiple generations with in-breeding and cross-breeding as well as backcrossing multiple offsprings to lock in those traits that the grower wants in his plants. We need to learn how this process happens because the autoflowering trait or gene in most cases is a recessive trait and that means it is less likely to get passed and expressed in the offsprings. And because of that fact you need to understand how genes are passed and how can you create a strain that expresses this recessive autoflower trait.

Th easiest way to express how gene inheritance works is to study Mendel’s First Law of Genetics and to draw a Punnett square diagram that expresses one or multiple genotype expression ratios. To simplify the matter lets create a Punnett square with the autoflowering and non-autoflowering genetics as well as with two stable autoflowering plants.
first-three-generation-autoflower-punnett-table-768x172_1_.png





In the diagrams above you can see tree breeding variations where the “AA” stands for the dominant photo-sensitive trait but “aa” stands for the recessive autoflowering trait. In genetics usually a capital letters(A) means a dominant trait but a lower case letters(a) means a recessive trait. If we examine these tables then we can see that there are 3 breeding cycles where in the first phase there is a cross between an autoflower plant (aa) with stable recessive trait and a stable photo-sensitive strain (AA) which has a stable dominant trait. In the second cycle there is a cross between two first generation (F1) offsprings but in the third table there is a cross between two fully autoflowering genetics.

Autoflower X Autoflower breeding

If you want to create your own autoflowering seeds the easiest method is to cross two stable autoflowering plants and preferably both from the same species. In this way you will have very stable offsprings because there is no new traits being introduced and that means all those desired plant characteristics would be Homozygous(stable) and you will not need to worry about multiple cross-breeding cycles. If we look at the third table above we can see that there is a cross between a stable recessive autoflowering trait plant (aa) and another stable recessive plant (aa) and that means that 100% of those offsprings will also be autoflowering and that is great for seed production. You can just order any regular autoflower seeds and grow them out, pollinate those females with the male pollen and get hundreds and hundreds of new regular autoflowering seeds. Because autoflowers usually take less than 70 days to flower theoretically you can start growing your next batch or home grown seeds in less than three months from ordering those first beans. And because you can get more than a 1000 seeds from one autoflower plant you will have a huge inventory of beans to keep your continuous grow operation going and every time you plant those seeds around half of those plants will be males. From those males you can manually pollinate a couple of branches on some female plants and get a continuous supply of, not just a decent home grown cannabis, but also home grown seeds that can be used for future grows. At first this method of creating your own seeds feels a bit tricky but when you get the hang of it you can save a lot of money because autoflower seeds are not cheap and especially those feminized seeds as they can cost as much as 10$ for one bean. But when you make your own seeds the only expenses will be electricity, growing medium and nutrients but that is nothing compared to those saving that you will get creating your own autoflower seeds!

autoflower and regular inbreedingAutoflower X Photo-sensitive plant breeding

If, however, you want to create a completely new autoflowering strain crossing a regular photo-sensitive plant with a stable autoflower strain then things get a bit trickier. You will have to make multiple generations to stabilize these new strains and that can be expensive and time consuming but if you have the energy and time then this is how you can do it:

First breeding cycle – When you cross both these plant(an autoflower and a photo-sensitive strain) as you can see in the first table you will get 100% plants that have both the dominant Photo sensitive trait and the recessive autoflower trait. And that means that the F1(first generation) Heterozygous(unstable) offsprings would all be photo-sensitive plants and will not flower automatically.
Second breeding cycle – As you can see in the second table when you have grown out some of those first offsprings and crossed the best male with the best female then the second generation (F2) offsprings will have a more diverse genetic make-up and 25% of their kids will give you fully dominant photo-sensitive plants(AA). 50% will give you the same hybrids as F1 generation (Aa) but only 25% will be Homozygous(stable) fully autoflowering plants (aa).
Third breeding cycle – And in the third Punnett table you can see that we have grown out those second generation offsprings and selected only the ones that showed that autoflowering trait and have crossed the best male and best female from those 25% of previous generation(f2) plants. And in the F3 (third generation) all your plants should be completely autoflowering (aa) and all of those offsprings should have that autoflowering trait that you desire.
Of course in nature it is not that simple but in general these punnet tables can give you a great starting point and an approximate knowledge of how much plants should show you those desired autoflowering traits. In real world growers usually do at least 5 to 8 generations to completely lock in those autoflowering genetics and because we need not just that autoflowering trait but also a great yield and other desired genetic variations then that process becomes much more difficult and time consuming.

For example, to get some additional desired genetics from those original mother plants you need to do a backcrossing taking some stable recessive third generation(f3) offsprings and breeding them back with those first generation offsprings. In the table below you can see that the autoflowering recessive trait would become Homozygous in around 50% of the offsprings of this backcrossing experiment and then you would need to one again breed two plants together to get a fully autoflowering offspring collection.

backbreeding-punnett-table.png


But because you don’t just want to get that autoflowering trait but some other characteristics like great yield, good potency or good mold resistance then you need to do a dihybrid mendelian analysis and the Punnett table for such a thing is much more complicated and you get something like the fifth table below. Here you can see that we have plotted two different traits – AA, aa and BB, bb where AA stands for photo-sensitive trait, aa stands for a recessive autoflower trait, BB stands for low THC concentration and bb stands for a recessive high THC concentration. As you can see from examining that tables a desired cross with both recessive(autoflower and high THC) genes expressed you will get in only 1/16 or 6.25% of those offsprings in the lowest right corner. And that is only for two traits, so imagine if you wanted to select for more than two traits, the table would get huge and the percentage rates would drop accordingly. Of course not all the desired traits are recessive and that somewhat increases the odds because looking at the table below if for example that High THC trait would be dominant and you wanted a “B” and only the recessive “a“(autoflowering) trait then you can use all the children that have Homozygous autoflower trait (aa) and that is 4/16 or 25% of all those offsprings, that are located in the lowest 4 right-side squares.


two-recessive-trait-breeding-punett-table-1-768x416.png

As you can see breeding is not easy and to do it properly you need to perform a lot of experimentation and you need to create many generations of plants to lock in all those desired traits. Luckily autoflower plants grow much faster than regular photo-sensitive strains and that means you can get as much as 6 generations of plants in one year. And in a couple of years you could have a very stable strain that can be used over and over again each time producing more and more stable offsprings and giving you a more uniform yield. Theoretically you can get a new, fully autoflowering, strain with as low as 3 or 4 generations but usually you will need to do at least 5 to 7 generations to stabilize those genetics and that is why in the recent years there have been multiple autoflower strains that have flooded the market and that were not yet stable and produced a wide variety of phenotypes. And because of that it is best to buy an older and more stable strain seeds as those breeders have had time to perfect their breeding methods and create more stable hybrids.
 
That right there was some good reading. I had been looking for simmering like this for a while. Could never get a straight answer while digging through the internet. I was under the impression that our devil's carnival (F1) had a 25% chance of being auto. Well now that I see it is a photo period plant, she will be transplanted, cloned, and flipped so we can start the second cycle of breeding. Thanks for posting this. Really helped. I'll throw some reps your way for this.
 
That right there was some good reading. I had been looking for simmering like this for a while. Could never get a straight answer while digging through the internet. I was under the impression that our devil's carnival (F1) had a 25% chance of being auto. Well now that I see it is a photo period plant, she will be transplanted, cloned, and flipped so we can start the second cycle of breeding. Thanks for posting this. Really helped. I'll throw some reps your way for this.

Hey Nis check this out Mendelian inheritance - Wikipedia

Especially this Mendelian Genetics
 
So your seeds will be an F1. No autos. Then when you self pollinate the F1 with another F1 the offspring will be F2 and have a ratio of 3:1 photo period to Auto. You then take 2 autos and breed them to get an F3 which should be Auto dominant correct? I'm trying to figure this out with ya as we are only one step ahead of you. Making sure we are on the same page.
 
Even though I am waaaay away from trying, I appreciate the post and it helps understanding WHY seeds grow differently from the same strain. I slapped you with some reps ++ :rofl:
Now you get a hug too :hug:
 
So your seeds will be an F1. No autos. Then when you self pollinate the F1 with another F1 the offspring will be F2 and have a ratio of 3:1 photo period to Auto. You then take 2 autos and breed them to get an F3 which should be Auto dominant correct? I'm trying to figure this out with ya as we are only one step ahead of you. Making sure we are on the same page.

I think so. I have read and reread. It takes me a minute sometimes. I don't really know how far I am ready to take this. Seems like something I wanna do but I feel like space and impending economical issues may play a factor, for a time anyhow.

I will continue a pursuit of autos but will continue pollinating some photos and keeping those beans for future grows and breeding.:thumb:
 
Even though I am waaaay away from trying, I appreciate the post and it helps understanding WHY seeds grow differently from the same strain. I slapped you with some reps ++ :rofl:
Now you get a hug too :hug:

Why thanks fro the love:hug:Birdie:hug: You may be interested to know that I bred the Pineapple Chunk with the DDA. I will keep you up to date when I make some moves with it.

Later til next time :love:
 
Working on getting some Silver Nitrate and Sodium Thiosulfate.
 
So your seeds will be an F1. No autos. Then when you self pollinate the F1 with another F1 the offspring will be F2 and have a ratio of 3:1 photo period to Auto. You then take 2 autos and breed them to get an F3 which should be Auto dominant correct? I'm trying to figure this out with ya as we are only one step ahead of you. Making sure we are on the same page.

Yes we are on the same page now. I have reconsidered the room and budget. This will go down as soon as I get material to make sts concentrate.
Now this is exciting. Really really exciting. No one here really gets it. I wish I could talk more but I gotta get outta here. Later.:passitleft:
 
:passitleft:
 
Yes we are on the same page now. I have reconsidered the room and budget. This will go down as soon as I get material to make sts concentrate.
Now this is exciting. Really really exciting. No one here really gets it. I wish I could talk more but I gotta get outta here. Later.:passitleft:
To answer your question on the blogged post, take a look at this:

How To Reverse Sex Using Silver Thiosulfate Solution

That recipe calls for the sodium thiosulfate to be the anhydrous version not the pentahydrate version that we have. But the post I blogged had the recipe and this thread has all of the handling and how to do it.

It's awesome that we will be doing this together as we have only used colloidal silver. :woohoo:
 
To answer your question on the blogged post, take a look at this:




That recipe calls for the sodium thiosulfate to be the anhydrous version not the pentahydrate version that we have. But the post I blogged had the recipe and this thread has all of the handling and how to do it.

It's awesome that we will be doing this together as we have only used colloidal silver. :woohoo:


Hey man For some reason the link did not post
 
Originally posted by
Medical Marijuana
420 Member
12-30-2007, 09:03 PM #1


How To Reverse Sex Using Silver Thiosulfate Solution
The following is a safe, inexpensive, and successful method for reversing the sex of female cannabis plants. Individual plant responses may vary based upon strain, but I can verify that this process is fully effective in stimulating profuse staminate flower production.

This process can be used to:
A: create new feminized seeds from solitary prize mothers that you currently have
B: create interesting feminized-seed hybrids from different prize strains that you currently have
C: create feminized seeds for optimum outdoor use
D: accelerate the "interview" phase of cultivation, in searching for interesting new clone-mothers
E: reduce total plant numbers- great for medical users with severe plant number restrictions
F: increase variety, by helping to create stable feminized seedlines to be used as an alternative to clones

At the bottom of this post are some specific details about the chemicals used, their safety, their cost, and where to get them.

It is important to educate yourself about cannabis breeding theory and technique prior to using a method like this one. Here is a link to Robert Clarke's "Marijuana Botany", which is a very good reference.

"Marijuana Botany" by Robert Connell Clarke
(unfortunately missing the appendices)

It is also important to use basic safety precautions when mixing and handling these chemicals, so read the safety data links provided. The risk is similar to mixing and handling chemical fertilizers, and similar handling procedures are sufficient.

Remember: nothing will ever replace good genetics, and some of your bounty should always go back towards the professional cannabis breeders out there... the ones who have worked for many generations to come up with their true-breeding F1 masterpieces. Support professional breeders by buying their seeds. Also, order from Heaven's Stairway. Not that they need a plug from me, but they are very professional and provide very fast service worldwide.

Preparation of STS:
First, a stock solution is made. It consists of two parts (A and B) that are initially mixed separately, then blended together. Part A is ALWAYS mixed into part B while stirring rapidly. Use distilled water; tap water may cause precipitates to form.

Wear gloves while mixing and using these chemicals, and mix and use in a properly ventilated area. A mask will prevent the breathing of any dust, which is caustic. STS is colorless and odorless, and poses minimal health risks if used as described here. (See material safety data sheet links below). Note that silver nitrate and STS can cause brown stains upon drying, so spray over newspaper and avoid spilling.

Part A: .5 gram silver nitrate stirred into 500ml distilled water
Part B: 2.5 grams sodium thiosulfate (anhydrous) stirred into 500ml distilled water

The silver nitrate dissolves within 15 seconds. The sodium thiosulfate takes 30-45 seconds to dissolve.

The silver nitrate solution (A) is then mixed into the sodium thiosulfate solution (B) while stirring rapidly. The resulting blend is stock silver thiosulfate solution (STS).

This stock solution is then diluted at a ratio of 1:9 to make a working solution. For example, 100ml of stock STS is added to 900ml of distilled water. This is then sprayed on select female plants.

Both the stock STS and the working solution should be refrigerated after use, as well as the powdered chemicals, to avoid activity loss. Excess working solution can be safely poured down the drain after use (with ample running water) with negligible environmental impact. It's pretty cheap.

Each liter of stock STS will make ten 1-liter batches of working solution of STS. With the minimum amount of base chemicals ordered from Photographer's Formulary (see link below), this means that each 1-liter bottle of working solution STS costs less than 9 cents, and can treat 15-20 mid-sized plants. That's 200 1-liter batches of STS for $18. Note that the distilled water costs far more than the chemicals.

Application:
The STS working solution is sprayed on select female plants until runoff. Do the spraying over newspaper in a separate area from the flower room. You probably won't smell anything, but ventilate anyway. You now have what I call a "F>M plant"; a female plant that will produce male flowers.

After the F>M plant dries move it into 12/12 immediately. This is usually done three to four weeks prior to the date that the target (to be pollinated) plants will be ready to pollinate. Response times may vary slightly depending upon the strain. More specific times can be determined by trial with your own individual strains. In my trials it took 26 days for the first pollen. 30-35 days seems optimum for planning purposes.

So, assuming that a target plant needs 3-4 weeks to produce fully mature seeds, a strain that takes 8 weeks to mature should be moved into flower at about the same time as the female>male plant. A target plant that finishes flowering in 6 weeks needs to be moved into flower later (10 days or so) so that it doesn't finish before the seeds can fully mature.

A seeded individual branch can be left to mature on a plant for a bit longer, while harvesting the other seedless buds if they finish first. Just leave enough leaves on for the plant for it to stay healthy.

Effects:
Within days I noticed a yellowing of the leaves on the F>M plants. This effect persisted for two weeks or so; after this they became green again, except for a few of the larger fans. The plants otherwise seemed healthy. No burning was observed. Growth stopped dead for the first ten days, and then resumed slowly. No stretch was ever seen. After two weeks the F>M plants were obviously forming male flower clusters. Not just a few clusters of balls, but complete male flower tops. One plant still formed some pistillate flowers, but overall it was predominantly male.

It is strange indeed to see an old girlfriend that you know like the back of your hand go through a sex change. I'll admit that things were awkward between us at first.

When the F>M plants look like they may soon open and release pollen, ( 3-1/2 to 4 weeks) move them from the main flower room into another unventilated room or closet with lighting on a 12/12 timer. Don't worry too much about watts per square foot; it will only be temporary.

When the pollen flies, move your target plants into the closet and pollinate.

A more controlled approach is to isolate the F>M plants in a third remote closet (no light is necessary in this one, as they are releasing pollen now and are nearly finished anyway). In this remote other closet the pollen is very carefully collected in a plastic produce bag or newspaper sleeve and then brought back to the lighted closet, where the target plants are now located. If this is done, be careful to not mix pollen types by letting the F>Ms dust each other. Avoid movement, or use yet another closet.

Take special care to not let pollen gather on the outside of this bag- a static charge is sometimes present. Drop small open clusters of blooms inside and then close the bag at the mouth and shake. Important: next, step outside and slowly release the excess air from the bag, collapsing it completely, so that pollen doesn't get released accidently. Point downwind; don't let it get on your hands or clothes.

This collapsed pollinated bag is now very carefully slipped over only one branch and is then tied off tightly at the mouth around the branch stem with a twist tie or tape, sealing the pollen inside. Let the bag inflate slightly with air again before sealing it off, so the branch can breathe. This technique keeps the entire plant from seeding. Agitate the bag a bit after tying it off to distribute the pollen. Don't forget to label the branch so you know which seeds are which. Other branches on this same plant can be hit with different pollen sources.

If no lighted closet is available, the plant can be moved back into the main room, but- be very careful pollen is sneaky. After 4-5 days, the bag is gently removed and the plant completes it's flowering cycle.

Yet another method has worked well for me. I position the target plants in a non-ventilated lighted closet, and then I collect pollen on a piece of mirror or glass. This is then carefully applied to the pistils of one pre-labeled branch by using a very fine watercolor paintbrush. Care is taken to not agitate the branch or the pollen. No sneezing. The plant needs to be in place first; moving it after pollination can shake pollen free and blow this technique.

Regardless of technique, at completion you will have feminized seeds. Let them dry for 2-4 weeks.

About the chemicals:
Silver nitrate is a white crystalline light-sensitive chemical that is commonly used in photography. It is also used in babies' eyes at birth to prevent blindness. It can cause mild skin irritation, and it stains brown. Avoid breathing. I didn't notice any smell or fumes, but ventilation is recommended. Be sure to wash the spray bottle well before you use it elsewhere; better yet: devote a bottle to STS use. A half gram is a surprisingly small amount; it would fit inside a gel capsule.

Here are links to some safety data. A Google search will bring up more information if needed.

Silver Nitrate info:
ICSC:NENG1116 International Chemical Safety Cards (WHO/IPCS/ILO) | CDC/NIOSH

For a realistic hazard level comparison, here is a link for the safety and handling data for Ammonium Nitrate, or common fertilizer:

Sodium thiosulfate is also a white crystalline chemical commonly used in photography; it is used in photographic fixers. Same general cautions apply, minus the staining. This formula uses the anhydrous type. Non-hazardous.

------------------
Where to get the chemicals:

Photographic chemicals, photo chemistry, photo processing equipment, photo chemicals

silver nitrate: 10 grams: $10
Photographers Formulary

sodium thiosulfate (anhydrous): 100 grams: $3.95
Photographers Formulary

Postage runs around $4. Fast service. Can be shipped to Canada.

Have fun experimenting with this technique. Use it responsibly. There are a few good threads here at CW that go into the pros and cons of transsexual agents and feminized seeds. Read them. And most importantly, use STS with quality F1 strains developed by professional breeders for the most consistent results.

A huge thanks to Fet from Spice Brothers Seeds for his help and advice in using this technique. I simply brought together available information from previous posts and tried my own recipe. I'm thrilled to share the results. Future tests will be done to adjust the formula so the molar ratios of the chemicals are correct, as specified by Gobgoober (thanks, Gob) but the formula posted here is completely effective.
Last edited by Medical Marijuana; 12-30-2007 at 09:06 PM.
 
I gotta put stuff like that here or I will lose it:rofl:
 
You can just hit the "blog this post" button if you are on the website...but this works too. :rofl:

Thanks dude. I seen it and never put two 2n2 together.

Later man have a great saturday night. Hey to Canna too man.:passitleft:
 
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