300W LED vs. 400W HID Demonstration

re: GrowLEDHydro 300W LED vs. 400W HID Demonstration

cause the math/study done with this bulb by the other forum member was going on the assumption that --- The HPS bulb gives 55,000 initial lumens for 137 lumens/watt and the CMH bulb gives 34,800 initial lumens for 87 lumens/watt.

where according to the factory standards the initial lumens would be 46,000 initial lumens (400 watt x 115 lumens/watt).

i would think this would significantly offset the results of the study making the CMH bulb even more beneficial than stated.
 
re: GrowLEDHydro 300W LED vs. 400W HID Demonstration

Holy cow, Thank you everybody for the info on the fans!!!

I think since I have the ability, I will use a duct size larger than the actual fan. I will actually increase the size of the ducting going out, as well as use insulated duct, as well as vent to a large open area, IE: outside! That's triple sound protection eh!?!??

Much respect to all on this thread!

-Go
 
re: GrowLEDHydro 300W LED vs. 400W HID Demonstration

What wattage are available with CMH lamps?

A smaller one would be idea for my mum and small plants.

Don't just dent em SS and Gator, break it down the middle!

-Go
 
re: GrowLEDHydro 300W LED vs. 400W HID Demonstration

Philips MasterColor Ceramic Metal Halide
HPS-Retro White Lamps​

So maybe you have hear about the best grow light bulb on the market…or maybe not - but now you have! The Philips MasterColor Ceramic Metal Halide HPS-Retro White Lamps are something new to horticulture. These bulbs are being manufactured to replace high pressure sodium (HPS) bulbs in factories and warehouses. Along comes the indoor gardener who sees the light and gets them thinking - I bet these would grow great plants! Well they do.

Grow Light Express has been testing these lamps for years and has sold lots of them. We honestly believe in these lamps. We get asked all the time if this is such a great bulb why isn't Phillips directly selling / advertising them to the horticultural markets. Well the technical reason is that with this type of bulb they would have to retool their manufacturing plants at great costs. With the coming advanced in lighting technology (and there is really some amazing stuff heading our way) we believe that they are unwilling to spend the money until the market proves worth investing further in Ceramic Metal Halide technology.

The basics:
These bulbs can be used in BOTH vegetative and bloom cycles - no more changing lamps during your grow. NO DIGITAL BALLASTS - you will destroy the bulb. ONLY use a standard coil and core HPS ballast (dont let the name confuse you). CMH bulbs cannot handle the frequencies of digital ballasts. Of course there are exceptions to this rule as there is at least one digital ballast that is designed to work with CMH lamps. They are fairly expensive and unless you know you have one of these you don't so don't try. The Ceramic Metal Halide bulbs are positional. This means that they are designed to be EITHER horizontal or vertical (they cannot be used universally) but not both. Placing the bulb in the wrong position will cause it to fail early. A tip to success is that most gardeners are reporting better success with the use of supplemental silica. Since these bulbs will make your plants grow fast, silica is helpful. Silica is involved in cell division and overall plant strength.

Benefits:
There are many benefits to these lamps. The main reason for even considering these lamps is the fantastic spectrum of light they produce. Check out the chart below to compare to output of a CMH to a HPS lamp.

As you can see there is a great deal of light energy available in the blue spectrum as well as the red. HPS lamps produce lots of light but its not the "right" light. It is true that plants can adapt and grow well under HPS but they will do better under CMH. Think of it this way, the sun, the light we are trying to reproduce inside, is full spectrum not just a lot of yellow / red. So why just give them yellow / orange? Basically HPS has become the standard for growing in supplied lighting conditions. This is mostly historical (now) because that was the best we had…now we have alternatives.

Other benefits include they "throw" less heat, they have very little color shift (less than 200K over their life time), your plants will have less stretch (tighter internodes).

Ceramic Metal Halide FAQ:
1. I have noticed that the Ceramic Metal Halide HPS Retro bulbs produce less lumens compared to other HPS bulbs?
A: Lumens is an antiquated way of comparing grow lamps. Lumens are a scientific definition based on the human eye and NOT on a plants response curve. This is the hardest part for people considering trying the CMH's to get past. We have been snowed over by the manufacturers just focusing on the max lumens.

2. When are bigger wattage bulbs going to be available?
A: Hum…sometime soon if Phillips keeps their promise! Also there is some new Ceramic Metal Halide technology on the horizon. This may keep bigger wattages of the market but the good news is that the new ones maybe extremely more efficient so you may not need bigger wattages. We will keep you posted on this!!

3. Will they run on my DIGITAL ballast?
A: NO (unless you have a specifically designed digital ballast for CMH lamps). They must be used in HPS ballast.
For additional information refer to the specification sheet for Ceramic Metal Halide Bulbs from Phillips.
Click to expand...

I love the info and the probing involved here! I have a feeling CMH vs. LED would be the best choice for a side-by-side comparison. Being that it seems the LEDs are more focused on the spectrum then HPS but also have high lumen output. It only makes sense to have both spectra available at all times (CMH), much like a plant outdoors would receive.

I feel we are on the path to nailing down some very important info! Lead the way! :thumb:
 
re: GrowLEDHydro 300W LED vs. 400W HID Demonstration

High Nine Leafer!

if this is your first visit to the thread, :welcome:


There's a couple of things we can look at here. One is CMH, and the other is vertical growing.

I think that before we compare vertical HID to LED, we should determine which HID bulb performs best, then we can give the LED the strongest competition.

My tents aren't big enough to run a 400w bare vertical bulb, so for a vertical grow style, it's going to have to be 250w.

So that's what I'm thinking right now. We determine which bare vertical bulb works the best, and then we pit it against the Spectra 300.

The Spectra 180 draws 240w, so that would be a closer match for wattage, but either way would be revealing.

thanks for your enthusiasm and positive vibes, Nine Leafer ;)
 
re: GrowLEDHydro 300W LED vs. 400W HID Demonstration

I'd be more than happy to rotate two plants in each tent.

that would appease my OCD by exactly 50% ;)


But now, back to our LED/HID comparison grow.

Things are going well. The coco, even cut 30% with perlite, holds so much more water than pure perlite that watering frequency in bloom has never exceeded 3 days, and if I had to leave town, I think they'd easily go 4-5 days without major issues.

The foliage is starting to look a little older now, but is still remarkably green for being this late in bloom. There is some pretty purpling of a few leaves in the HID tent. There may also be some in the LED tent, but it's harder to differentiate colors under LED light.

I'm going to take some pics tonight with the grow lights off and using CFL's. I may do a couple of more videos while I have both groups with common lighting.

I've avoided doing that before because there's been LED grows in the past where the grower secretly used additional lighting and tried to pass off the results as a pure LED grow, and I didn't want to take even the smallest risk of being accused of doing that, but screw it. *I* know I haven't used any supplemental lighting, I have no control over what other peeps want to believe, and I think it's really important to show both groups under the same type of light.

I wish the weather was a little warmer and drier, but that's something else I have no control over. I'm doing what I can to keep grow room temps up and humidity down.

They're at 8 weeks today, so it's a good day for a pic update, and I'm going to check trichs again also. From just looking at the buds, I'd say they have about a week more to go, with the HID plants looking a little farther along.

probably be late tonight or early morning before I get a chance to update, but the pics will be up by sunrise ;)

high tide tomorrow at 8:20am and surf perch don't seem to mind the rain. Drive out to Guadalupe Beach and park facing the ocean, roast a bowl or two, put on my nice warm waders, and if the Power is smiling on me, bring home some food to my woman ;).
 
re: GrowLEDHydro 300W LED vs. 400W HID Demonstration

bmarduk said:
If both sides b treated equally, then the treatment is a constant, not a variable in any equation, no worries mate, about what others think unless they do it really well.:smokin:
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Yup, and what I'd like to do in these types of grows is just leave a CFL bulb permanently in each tent for *just* taking pics, but again, because of past dishonesty by other growers, it makes me hesitant to do so.

But you really can't compare the plants well under the very different LED and HID lights, and I don't want to risk damaging them by taking them out, so it's the only option.


Perched for predation, eh? How do you cook them and do you also fish for blacksmith perch?
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I like to keep it simple with barred perch, so usually just fillet and saute them in a little butter with some garlic, splash of lemon juice, maybe a splash of white wine, salt and pepper. Proceed to chow down or make fish tacos with them and chow down ;).

The major portion of their diet is sand crab, and their flavor is mild and sweet.

I haven't fished for blacksmith perch. They aren't as social as barred perch, who move in schools up and down the beach, and climbing around on slippery, guano-coated rocks to get to them is not smart when going fishing alone, which is my usual habit, having expended most of my social energy at work ;).

If you enjoy wetting a line, maybe someday we can predate perch on pure power plant ;).
 
re: GrowLEDHydro 300W LED vs. 400W HID Demonstration

Propa Gator said:
SS, you're running a horizontal hooded 400 HPS against that big LED.
I suspect a bare vert CMH 250 could give either a run in your DR80 :)
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well, I decided to postpone framing in my grow room until doing one more run as is, so I'll be starting that one soon after I harvest this one and hopefully we'll know instead of suspect.

A good friend of mine, OBX, who was doing a vertical grow journal here, turned me on to the idea of using aluminum foil to make a light shield for eye protection when working around the bare bulbs, so I'm not as concerned about eye and skin exposure. My 250w magnetic ballast doesn't buzz quite as badly as I remembered, and the grow setup is going to be stump simple.

I have a brand new Hortilux 250w HPS, and I'm going to order a vertical-orientation 250w CMH.

should be fun ;)
 
re: GrowLEDHydro 300W LED vs. 400W HID Demonstration

ProblemChild said:
if i am not mistaken those CMH lights can be hung on a pully system for easy moving i remember seeing a whole room like this on Urban Grower pretty cool if you ask me
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I've seen big grows like that too. Made me wince just to look at the pics and curious about the kind of eye and skin protection needed to be safe, but I bet it works.
 
re: GrowLEDHydro 300W LED vs. 400W HID Demonstration

Setting Sun said:
I have a brand new Hortilux 250w HPS, and I'm going to order a vertical-orientation 250w CMH.

should be fun ;)
Click to expand...

Does sound like fun.:cheertwo:

In ordering my ballasts and cmh retro whites I have ended up with a stash of 5 400W HPS bulbs. It would be nice to know that someday thay might be good for something.
 
re: GrowLEDHydro 300W LED vs. 400W HID Demonstration

bmarduk said:
My family came here from an Italian island
to fish for bluefin, it's genetically hardwired in me. Loved my tackle more than my ex, that's why I still have my tackle and not the ex.:)

I am always down for pisciverous pursuits of pleasure, particularly perch on pure power plant at "The Golden Dawn."
Click to expand...


;)







I hear that the fishing for my kind [avatara] has been good over at Surf lately [yeah, I know it's in bad taste, but since I :surf: and have worn the bulls eye for over 40 years, I'm allowed.]


b:smokin:
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"The California sea lion population, which occurs from the offshore islands of Mexico north to Vancouver Island, British Columbia, has increased dramatically in this century. In the late 1920s, 1,000-1,500 California sea lions were counted on land in California (Bonnot 1928, Cass 1985). Commercial harvest in the 1800s and early 1900s likely reduced the numbers of California sea lions at the turn of the century. With curtailment of commercial hunting in the early 1940s, the population gradually began to increase. Following passage of the MMPA in 1972, the California sea lion population off the West Coast of the United States has increased steadily at an average annual rate of more than 5% since the mid-1970s (Barlow et al. 1995) as indicated by pup counts (Fig. 5). Although the population is now very large and may be greater than any historical level (Low 1991), there is no evidence that it has reached its optimal sustainable population (OSP) level which is the management goal mandated by the MMPA (NMFS 1992)."

"Since at least the 1960s, the abundance of harbor seals in California has been increasing and they have continued to occupy new haul-out sites. In 1982, there were 427 documented haul-out sites along the mainland coast. Currently, there are more than 860 documented haul-out sites in addition to haul-out sites on all eight of the Channel Islands in the southern California Bight.

The annual rate of increase in the harbor seal population in California was 5.6% from 1979 to 1995 (Fig. 8) based on counts by Hanan (1996). Systematic aerial photographic surveys have been conducted by CDFG specifically to count all harbor seals in California during their early summer molting period, which is considered to be the time of peak abundance onshore (Stewart and Yochem 1994). In 1995, the count of harbor seals in California was 23,336. Using a correction factor of 1.4 suggested by Boveng (1988) to account for seals in the water, the estimated abundance in California in 1995 was 32,699 harbor seals. Recent counts (minimum population estimates) of harbor seals for each of the California regions are shown in Appendix D.""


looks like the fishing will only get better
 
re: GrowLEDHydro 300W LED vs. 400W HID Demonstration

Yep thats the guy.My first board was one of his personals.He owns a shop in crescent city now that his kids run.he dont surf any more and lives in oregon.He gave me a realy good deal.Its a 6 5 fish.Hes a pretty good guy.
Yeah only had enouph dow for one board at the time.....I gave the x my boogy board lol....Yeah I am bad.but it was years ago.Sill have my board and get out when I can.
LMAO.yeah familys all about costing an arm and a leg...I am just kidding.You want to see one in the water up close come up hear.
Sí se puede romper mi concha con una mordida.:bitingnails:
 
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