300W LED vs. 400W HID Demonstration

re: GrowLEDHydro 300W LED vs. 400W HID Demonstration

Propa Gator said:
My 4" Can Fan is very quiet, but the volume of air it moves is not.
I use a lamp-dimmer to throttle it down, but a muffler would quiet more volume.
By the numbers and reports, the Suncourt is even quieter.
Problem is that air moving against any surface will make noise; it's turbulence.
A larger duct will carry more air at reduced velocity for less noisy movement.
Conduct the air to a chamber - like an attic - and the noise dissipates.
Flue dampers could adjust airflow for balance. These fans can pull a load :bigtoke:
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stoned minds think alike, lol


The Suncourt fan itself, as Mr. Gator mentions, is very quiet, but it really does seem to move a true 200cfm unloaded, and that much flow creates some noise.

On the next video, I'll record the difference in sound when I vent it into the attic. It's pretty dramatic.

The noise it does make when it's venting into the garage, however, isn't too obnoxious to me because it's more of a lower-pitched whoosh, and higher-pitched noise bothers me a lot more.

I think it's a very quiet fan. The noise it makes is mostly airflow, and the reason you hear the airflow so well is because the fan itself is remarkably quiet.
 
re: GrowLEDHydro 300W LED vs. 400W HID Demonstration

Setting Sun said:
I could, but I'd need to upgrade to at least the 6" Suncourt fan to get the same ventilation, and I'd lose individual control over each tent, which is the only way I can equalize temps when running and comparing different light setups and technologies.

If I was just growing, and not doing comparisons, a single fan with a Y would work fine to ventilate both tents.

For doing comparisons such as 250w CMH vs 250w HPS in open hoods, the single fan would actually be an advantage as far as equalizing temps between the tents, but with different lights and different amounts of static pressure, it would favor one tent over the other.

food for thought thinkerr ;)
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Just put dampers in to control flow. You can either use a "T" Y" with dampers or put them on yourself, not hard. And then you have complete control. Use insulated duct for quiet air flow.

Air control. :peacetwo:
 
re: GrowLEDHydro 300W LED vs. 400W HID Demonstration

go green said:
I find the suncourt fans very LOUD, don't you?
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see above ;)

If one was running two of those tents how big of a fan would you need? You run the 30x30x64 right? As I do x 2.
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Rounding off the volume to 50 cubic ft, if you want to exchange the air about once a minute, which is a good rate, you need a fan with a 100cfm rating because when you pull through a carbon filter and ducting, you lose about half of your flow.

So, to use a single fan to exchange the air in two tents with a total of 100 cubic ft, you'd need at least a 200cfm fan.

That might cut it for ventilation, but from the temps I'm running with the 4" 200cfm fan exhausting a single tent, it wouldn't be enough to manage heat in two tents.

The 6" Suncourt Centrax is rated at 409cfm, and only uses 70w. I think that one would be the ticket.
 
re: GrowLEDHydro 300W LED vs. 400W HID Demonstration

mine SC fan was making allot of noise from the air exhausting out not the unit. so i put insulated ducting and it must have cut the noise at least 50% much much better. you can get the ducting at lowes or homedepot. i run that stuff on all of my fans its a must IMO. oh and i am running with ni fiter so it was really loud before. I am glad i found these fans i will never look back!!!!! as good as it gets IMO. i am looking to get the 6 or 8" one also for summer time.
 
re: GrowLEDHydro 300W LED vs. 400W HID Demonstration

That might cut it for ventilation, but from the temps I'm running with the 4" 200cfm fan exhausting a single tent, it wouldn't be enough to manage heat in two tents.
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If you do run 250 comparison CMH v HPS, I hope you'll again consider bare verts in your DR80s. Heat is less per watt, and you will gain more headroom. I believe your 'ventilation sufficient' current equipment will suffice, at least until summertime. Spend a little on a vert CMH bulb instead of a lot on a hurricane fan :) Your yellow bulb should run anyway it's hung.

Allright, all righty then! If I like vert so much, why don't I grow that show?
Your DR80s are perfect but my IKEA cabs still stand, and they're empty.
 
re: GrowLEDHydro 300W LED vs. 400W HID Demonstration

Guys what vert cmh 250 are you looking at? What does CMH mean? Is there a preferred light/ballast combo I should be looking at? Thank you!
 
re: GrowLEDHydro 300W LED vs. 400W HID Demonstration

Blue Dog, we're talking about growing like this:
000_05141.JPG

The bulb is 250w Ceramic Metal Halide retro-fit. They're made by Phillips and marketed for re-bulbing HPS factory/wharehouse fixtures. We get them here, and I use & recommend this magnetic ballast. Digitals won't drive CMH retros.
 
re: GrowLEDHydro 300W LED vs. 400W HID Demonstration

If the upright post is at the back of the pot, you might want to also use a couple bamboo posts at the middle sides of the pot for a simple arrangement. The action is a combination of pulling back and pulling sideways.

I have had a lot of elaborate ideas but most of them are overkill. Full vscrog screens are more work than i feel like doing and not really necessary. Besides I feel the plants do better in an improv mode with only mild direction.

Been dreaming like a rabbit runs for a few weeks now.
 
re: GrowLEDHydro 300W LED vs. 400W HID Demonstration

Do you think I could simply use the upright frame members at the tent corners to tie them back with, or would I need a more elaborate trellising arrangement?
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I tried the elaborate trellis idea, and haven't yet trashed the wire but...
I couldn't quite reach through it, or past it. And, the stems were structurally weak.
Important IMO to keep the potted plant separate for independant attention/movement.
Cobbling up support when needed seems doable when/if necessary.
I'm "Shaking the bush, Boss" till then. Stress therapy, like gravity is good.

If you tie them to the tent's uprights, you lose in two ways. Access & stem size
I'll photo my light suspension tonight, and the stem-curve that I must address

Knowing your style SS, I suggest you could rotate one or two regularly for symetricality and see/prove results compared to my 'one face' method :)
If the upright post is at the back of the pot, you might want to also use a couple bamboo posts at the middle sides of the pot for a simple arrangement. The action is a combination of pulling back and pulling sideways.

I have had a lot of elaborate ideas but most of them are overkill. Full vscrog screens are more work than i feel like doing and not really necessary. Besides I feel the plants do better in an improv mode with only mild direction.

Been dreaming like a rabbit runs for a few weeks now.
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Yes Sir, I believe you've got it! I too have been dreaming like a rabbit, but the running part is too energetic :hmmmm:
 
re: GrowLEDHydro 300W LED vs. 400W HID Demonstration

good stuff, thank you PG and TT ;)

I do like having my plants individually free and clear so I can move them around and attend to them easier, and with that glaring naked bulb, it's very important to me to be able to take the plants out of the tent for any maintenance.

If needed, I think 2-3 bamboo stakes in each pot would keep things moveable and provide good restraint.

500w won't heat up the garage as well as 700, but I can continue to run the gas furnace to help warm the garage.

it's coming together and feelin' good ;)
 
re: GrowLEDHydro 300W LED vs. 400W HID Demonstration

Propa Gator said:
Blue Dog, we're talking about growing like this:
000_05141.JPG

The bulb is 250w Ceramic Metal Halide retro-fit. They're made by Phillips and marketed for re-bulbing HPS factory/wharehouse fixtures. We get them here, and I use & recommend this magnetic ballast. Digitals won't drive CMH retros.
Click to expand...

Thank you Gator! That's exactly what I've been looking for. And I love that pic :thumb:
 
re: GrowLEDHydro 300W LED vs. 400W HID Demonstration

SS I hope I'm not hijacking your thread, please let me know if I am.

I went to the ATS site to look at the bulbs, currently the 250 & 400W vert bulbs are the same price, $52.

They also offer a 400W ballast kit for $58. Both seem very reasonable to me.

I'm wondering if there's any problem with this ballast, it's cheaper than the light/ballast combo from HTG that Propa pointed me to.

Thanks again.
 
re: GrowLEDHydro 300W LED vs. 400W HID Demonstration

I don't see any hijacking going on.

These journals have a certain focus, but are open to the discussion of different ways and methods to grow medical marijuana, and there is certainly more than one way to skin that cat.

I'm not a CFL grower, or an HPS grower, or an LED grower.

That ballast kit is just a kit, so you'd need to provide your own box and wire it up yourself.

If you're OK with that, there's nothing wrong with it, and $58 is a competitive price for a magnetic ballast kit.

The HTG magnetic ballasts seem quieter than most and are very good quality, IMO, so that's why PG and I like them, but nothing wrong with ballasts kits if you're handy.

They should come with a diagram and are simple to wire up.
 
re: GrowLEDHydro 300W LED vs. 400W HID Demonstration

if i am not mistaken those CMH lights can be hung on a pully system for easy moving i remember seeing a whole room like this on Urban Grower pretty cool if you ask me
 
re: GrowLEDHydro 300W LED vs. 400W HID Demonstration

do the CMH bulbs pump out as many lumens as an equal wattage HPS or MH bulb? how can you have it so close to the canopy without bleaching? why are they so cheap?
 
re: GrowLEDHydro 300W LED vs. 400W HID Demonstration

cut & pasted from another grow forum:


"High pressure sodium works because of it's raw power and efficiency. It concentrates nearly all it's energy as light into that ugly orange color peak around 589nm wavelength. Plants only absorb that type of light moderately, because it's not in the "butter zone" of photosynthesis. It is however, fairly close which is why it's used for flowering, and like I mentioned, it's raw power makes up it's lack of absorption.

CMH lamps such as the Philips MasterColor series give off a little bit more red then the Hortilux Blue. In my opinion, CMH bulbs have the highest percentage of light absorbed by the plants when compared to all other grow light technologies. They are less efficient then HPS, more of their light is useful light within the 400-450nm blue and 600-700nm red range.

It's mathematically calculable how much useful energy to a plant each type of lighting technology gives out. I did the calculations;

I compared an EYE Hortilux Super HPS 400w bulb to a Philips MasterColor 400w CMH. The HPS bulb gives 55,000 initial lumens for 137 lumens/watt and the CMH bulb gives 34,800 initial lumens for 87 lumens/watt.


Assuming all the factory specs, and rounding lumens down, I calculated the relative energies at 10 nanometer wavelength intervals from 400nm-700nm within the visible light spectrum; A total of 31 different measurements. I then compared Clorophyll A and B photosynthesis at each wavelength interval, and ran the numbers.

In the end it turned out the HPS bulb had 12,318 lumens worth of useful photosynthetic penetration. This beat the CMH bulb with 9,903 lumens worth of useful photosynthetic penetration; The HPS beating the CMH bulb by roughly 124% overall. Predictably though, the CMH had a higher percentage of it's light used for photosynthesis, 28% of it's light used versus only 22% from the HPS.

Looking at a narrower scope, just veg/flower colors, the HPS is 141% better at flowering then the CMH, producing 4935 useful lumens within the 600-700nm "butter zone" compared to the CMH's 3478 lumens. The CMH had the HPS beat though for vegetative stage, 850% better at the 400-450 blue spectrum. The HPS only mustered 416 useful blue spectrum lumens, compared to the CMH 3514 lumens. Keep in mind though, this is a horticultural bulb with an enhanced spectrum, standard security light HPS would lose hands down to CMH.

The conclusion? It's still not clear. If you had to use a single bulb throughout the whole grow, the CMH may have the advantage because it handles the veg. stage so much better, while only trailing HPS during flowering. On the other hand, if you have the option of swapping out bulbs, you'll want to use the CMH for veg. and HPS for flowering. If your looking for the best possible light conditions, I would suggest one of each. What's interesting is the normal metal halides can easily push 110 lumens/watt. If they are to improve CMH technology in the future to make it more efficient while keeping the same spectrum, at that level it will beat out the HPS in all circumstances.

My personal opinion about CMH bulbs; I think they're the best artificial light source for growing yet, beating out HPS. The balanced spectrum plus UV light emitted from CMH bulbs has additional, unmeasured benefit for flowering cannabis. I'm convinced, but until someone compares the two in laboratory conditions a lot of people won't be. Your welcome to make your own conclusions."



calumens


Used in a hood horizontally, you can have them a bit closer to the canopy because CMH bulbs don't "throw" or radiate as much of their heat down towards the plants as MH and HPS.

They also run a few degrees cooler in general.

They're cheap because they're not "horticultural" bulbs.

ssssshhhhhhhhhhhhh;)
 
re: GrowLEDHydro 300W LED vs. 400W HID Demonstration

Setting Sun said:
chilled water would shock the roots, which may or may not be an issue that late in the game?

I'm finding that CRF's work best when you water with very little runoff. Too much runoff leaches a lot of the nutes and then it takes a few days for them to build back up.

So, I don't think cold water or cold room temps are necessary to flush CRF nutes if one wishes.

A normal water flush maybe 3 days before harvest would flush them out pretty well.
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I was thinking of ~50*f water, so not really very cold per say. -just cool enough to cause the OC+ to release less than it was before.

is it necessary? no. but for those whose main hangup from trying CRF's is a lack of flush, it might allow them to try an OC+ grow.
 
re: GrowLEDHydro 300W LED vs. 400W HID Demonstration

Setting Sun said:
cut & pasted from another grow forum:

What's interesting is the normal metal halides can easily push 110 lumens/watt. If they are to improve CMH technology in the future to make it more efficient while keeping the same spectrum, at that level it will beat out the HPS in all circumstances.QUOTE]

"2008 Philips MasterColor CDM Elite MW (210-315 Watt) 3K & 4K @ 115 lumens per watt." Ceramic Metal Halide Fact Page ~ Advanced Technology Solutions, LLC

idk if they are even talking about the same bulbs or what 3K 4K stand for. im just throwing this out there cause you mentioned 110 lumens/watt and this says 115 lumens/watt.
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