300W LED vs. 400W HID Demonstration

[IrishBoy]

Re: 420 Cannasumer Reports Competition - GrowLEDHydro 300w LED vs. 400w HID

I have made some good friends here, including you, and I value those friendships a lot more than my loyalties to fertilizers .

Walked into a local hydro shop yesterday that I'd never been to before. Pretty good sized shop with large inventory of very expensive nutes.

Proprietor points to a display and tells me that everything is 50% off, and then asks me what I'm using.

I had the pleasure of telling him about how happy I was with cheap CRF's .

thanks for the kind words.. i agree know ferts are worth my brow buddy's friendship. all of you guys have helped me fine tune my skills. once i joined this forum i felt like a newbie grower because ive learn so much new stuff. i dont know where i would be in my grows without the info you guys share.

same deal with me . they were also pissed at me because i was saying i had mites and they were trying to sell me a no pest stripe from some weird brand for $15.00.. i smiled and said no thanks, and they asked how i got rid of them, i told them with a hot shoot NPS.. he said that the hot shoot wouldn't work for mites and i smiles and said the mites are no able to comment on that one because their all dead.. well why wouldn't you buy this one? i smiled and said you want $15 for one off brand and i bought one that i know works for $6.00. he didnt like that one.lol. i only go their for PH pen solution or PH down.. thats it. their the cheaper hydro store but the ones that try to sale things and claim BS.

 

[IrishBoy]

Re: 420 Cannasumer Reports Competition - GrowLEDHydro 300w LED vs. 400w HID

You sinners should be ashamed of yourselves. You need to pray and pay at the "WALL OF WATER" and incomplete nutes. I saw an ad for some hydro nutes yesterday, 3 bottles of this, 4 bottles of that, and 3 bottles of the other thing, and you have complete 'proprietary' nutrition and some high priced H2O. It's kinda like Holy Water, but for sinners!

b

man that is too funny. Wall Of Water!! LMAO!!!

i hate that ripe off BS you need 21 bottles to grow good plants. i need flower bottles A-Z to grow good flowers.lol Mix A 1st then M then Y then B, clap ur hands 3 times while spinning in a full circle Then mix all the other bottles. and u can feed ur plants.

 

[Doc Bud]

Re: 420 Cannasumer Reports Competition - GrowLEDHydro 300w LED vs. 400w HID

thanks for the kind words.. i agree know ferts are worth my brow buddy's friendship. all of you guys have helped me fine tune my skills. once i joined this forum i felt like a newbie grower because ive learn so much new stuff. i dont know where i would be in my grows without the info you guys share.

same deal with me . they were also pissed at me because i was saying i had mites and they were trying to sell me a no pest stripe from some weird brand for $15.00.. i smiled and said no thanks, and they asked how i got rid of them, i told them with a hot shoot NPS.. he said that the hot shoot wouldn't work for mites and i smiles and said the mites are no able to comment on that one because their all dead.. well why wouldn't you buy this one? i smiled and said you want $15 for one off brand and i bought one that i know works for $6.00. he didnt like that one.lol. i only go their for PH pen solution or PH down.. thats it. their the cheaper hydro store but the ones that try to sale things and claim BS.

Well, you're spending too much money on your pH down, buying it from the hydro shop.

Go to the autoparts store and get battery acid. H2SO4....good old sulfuric acid....works like a charm. Cost about 1/4th as much as pH down.

Need Cal/mag? You can have it delivered for free, right to your house. It's called "tap water." Of course, if you're on well water, you can still get it for free....it's called hard water.

Zinc? You can get the chelated stuff at a garden center, like Home dePot or Lowes for real cheap.....or you can bury some galvanized nails.

Of course, most of this, except the tap water, and pH down, is really for soil growers. Hyrdo guys have a little more complications.....but us hempy/dirt guys can do just fine with a 20 dollar bottle of plant food.

Nitrogen is nitrogen.....sort of.

 

[The Lurker]

Re: 420 Cannasumer Reports Competition - ------------ 300w LED vs. 400w HID

I didn't see any bona fide ire here, just folks expressing an opinion, is all...I like a little gumption with my Gumbo. No oyster crackers, please; this be N'awlins Style!

...clap ur hands 3 times while spinning in a full circle...

I find that performing skyclad Wiccan rituals with Damiana-laced red wine and lots of sex by the light of the full moon on a Summer Solstice seems to help the plants grow, too...

...of course, that's just anecdotal experience - more testing is definitely required, methinks... <wink>

dogs, just out of curiosity, you could try putting some measure of Dynamite prills in a tied-off stocking, and secure it in the res.

The Dynamite prills were developed to work correctly in rice paddies, so being submerged should be OK.

Be interesting to see what the ppm levels out at, and how much drift there is once it gets there.

As you know, Nutricote and Dynamite are the same thing. Nutricote's been used for a few decades by the large agricultural interests. Except: Florikan figured that by re-branding it, they could get folks to pay $7-8 for 2lbs instead of $52 for 80lbs - and you don't have to have minimum order quantities of 5-6 bags just to get them to deliver. Not everyone's got an orchard...the new marketing seems to be working, too.
----

Folks might find this interesting:

Influence of Temperature and Time on Nutrient Release Patterns of Osmocote Plus™, Nutricote™, and Polyon™ Controlled-Release Fertilizers (PDF)

(Two experiments: 1) CRF's suspended in water at 40C (104F) for several weeks; and 2) Impact of Columnar Leaching in short-term diurnal temperature fluctuations (i.e. 'night' and 'day')

You're gonna want to read that one for yourselves, guys. It pertains to YOU! (Yes, I'm makin' ya do some work...)
----------

Also:

Effects of temperature on nutrient release from slow-release fertilizers

At 21°C the rate of release was significantly different than the other two temperatures...Except for Osmocote® and Duna, which released 30–40% of the applied N as mineral-N within six weeks...

(go read the rest)

and:

OSMOCOTE Notes:

WARNINGS

Soil mixtures containing Osmocote should not be stored longer than 7-10 days depending on temperatures without leaching prior to use. Osmocote should be applied after steam sterilising.
Avoid the risk of fertiliser burn in hot weather by maintaining pot moisture levels.
Do not dibble red (3-4 months) products or Osmocote Nursery Mix.

CHOOSING THE CORRECT OSMOCOTE FORMULATION

To ensure economical and accurate application of Scotts controlled release fertiliser, individual products are labelled according to NPK analysis and standard longevity. This standard release time is based upon an average soil temperature of 21°C. Warmer temperatures will shorten, while cooler temperatures will lengthen the stated longevity. In these circumstances you may need to compensate by choosing an Osmocote formulation with either a shorter or longer standard longevity.

Sounds consistent with what Irish was seeing. Water 'em and they perk back up - water more often (but less each time instead of 'binge drinking'), and they seem happier.

I'm sure the same rules re: concentration apply here as they do with a hydro res: go from a 6 gal full res down to ~1-2 gal, and you'll start seeing toxicity/salt issues. Looks like ya need to keep the medium moist - especially if you're applying all the CRF to the pots at the start of the season.
----------

Orchids are a bit finicky sometimes, too; to wit, these folks say within:

The Orchid Fertilizer Bible:

The backbone of our nutritional program is Nutricote Total 13-13-13 with minors, 6 month formula. Never heard of it? It's sold as Dynamite at Home Depot. The one for orchids is in the red canister. We, and many other growers, have used this successfully for years with excellent results.

Nutricote or Dynamite is the very best timed-release fertilizer because the nutrients are gradually and consistently made available to the orchids. Other "slow release" fertilizers can dump more salts with increased temperatures and water. This dumping results in severe root and leaf damage. Nutricote or Dynamite will not cause this problem if you follow label directions.

Smaller doses on a regular basis produce more consistent growth and healthier plants.

Smaller meals instead of one big one, huh? Works for me. Takes away a bit from the 'just add water' simplicity, but if it's for a good cause - might be worth doing a little bit o' actual work to grow these plants, eh?
----

Some comments from users of OC/DC (warmer climate users, mostly) over on Gardensweb; can't link to them directly from here of course:

"I personally dont recommend osmocote due to its release action. I recommend Dynamite/Nutricote. The difference is that Osmocote is temperature release and Dynamite/Nutricote is chemical release. The difference is that Osmocote will just sit there no matter how much you water it if the temperature is cool, once the temperature is above 80 F it starts to slowly release. Although if the temperatures get 90 or above, it all disperses at once, over fertilizing your plants and then there is no more left to fertilize later on.

However, Dynamite/Nutricote is a chemical release fertilizer. What that does is every time there is water and moisture that is surrounding the fertilizer capsule, it slowly releases into the soil.

But if you only have Osmocote a balanced fert would be my bet."
-----

"Dynamite is actually a commercial product that is called Nutricote. The benefit to it is that it doesn't release nutrients until the soil temperature is 70 degrees or over, so it's not just washed out of the soil in cooler weather. I've used it for years, and quite prefer it to Osmocote."

"Nutricote IS better because it releases by temperature where Osmocote, works through Osmosis and can release too much fertilizer at one time when we have 4 inch rains and is more inconsistant for us in the rainy Florida times."

"When I belonged to the Orchid Society, they used to say that the Nutricote/Dynamite fertilizer is better because the Osmacote capsules explode after a while which releases too much fertilizer to delicate plants. That's why I have switched. I prefer the balanced formulation for most plants and I use the high nitrogen formulation for foliage plants only."

"I also use Dynamite...they do make a dynamite slow release specifically for Citrus and Palms, couldn't find it in my area, so I called Florikan Co. who makes Dynamite and was told they didn't sell it here, but Lowe's carries it, in Lowe's private brand(Garden Club Select), Florikan assures me it is the identical product...I purchased it from Lowe's and posted the picture so you know what to look for if you are interested, its under $7, at my lowe's. If you look at the bottom of the container you will see "Florikan"."

------

Lowe's carries it in their stores, but previously did not list it on their website; now they do:

Lowe's Garden Club Select (4 Formulations)

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More info about greater release of OC ferts in high temps, esp. Nitrogen:

Release of nitrogen from two controlled release fertilizers (Osmocote Plus and Osmocote Exact)

From samples taken during the cultivation period the release of ammonium and nitrate was calculated as the difference between initial and final amount of ammonium and nitrate. Release of ammonium from the controlled release fertilizers was much faster than the release of nitrate in both fertilizers. The release of total nitrogen (ammonium and nitrate) from Osmocote Plus ® could be related to the sum of air temperature calculated from the time of transplanting, independently of growing period and cultivars.

That seems to reiterate/reinforce some of the above comments from people here.
--------

Now, all that really tells me at this time is that if you're:

1) Growing in a Controlled, Conditioned (HVAC) Environment (i.e. Living Spaces):

* You have a wider range of options with regards to which CRFs/TRFs to use, when (how often), and at what time of the year (temperature/seasonal)

2) If you're Growing in an Unconditioned Area (Non-Living Spaces) (crawlspace, garages, unfinished basements, attics, sheds, etc.):

* You want to take into account overall plant growth factors (Q-10, etc.) as well as nutrient release factors - which you should be doing anyway.

Same applies whether you're using LEDs vs HIDs, and all the rest. Don't blame the preparation (or lack of) or necessity for using a particular growspace for the results you get. Everyone works within their own budget, security concerns, and living arrangements. We all make do with what we've got.

And, good information backed by personal experience is the best foundation from which to make any decision.

----

I've usually had the luxury of growing in conditioned air spaces myself when indoors, so I'd leave my options open if using CRFs in the future. Plenty of folks (esp. in temperate climates) over the years have been using various formulations of OC in their gardens with great results.

Got kids, or antsy spouses, or nosy neighbors/landlords and draconian state laws?...then you also have fewer options, and your considerations will have to change accordingly.

Everyone's goal should be to grow in as conditioned and controllable a space as we possibly can (indoors, that is - legislatively, we want to do away with the necessity, of course) - if you have one, than kudos to you! Hard work, knowledge - and a little capital expenditure - will always pay off for you in the end.
------

In the meantime, let's not have bias for or against anyone here either for/from their access to - or lack of - resources in setting up their garden space.

...Garden envy, anyone?


Especially if they're buds of mine. Be nice...or I just might have to Open Up a Can o' Whoop Ass on ya--!


-TL

 

[Doc Bud]

Re: 420 Cannasumer Reports Competition - GrowLEDHydro 300w LED vs. 400w HID

^^^^

Post of the Year, Lurker!

 

[go green]

Re: 420 Cannasumer Reports Competition - GrowLEDHydro 300w LED vs. 400w HID

^^^^

Post of the Year, Lurker!

Ditto

 

[IrishBoy]

Re: 420 Cannasumer Reports Competition - GrowLEDHydro 300w LED vs. 400w HID

Well, you're spending too much money on your pH down, buying it from the hydro shop.

Go to the autoparts store and get battery acid. H2SO4....good old sulfuric acid....works like a charm. Cost about 1/4th as much as pH down.

what are you for real? wouldn't that cause problems? that cant be as good for ur plants or ur skin as PH down?

I knew about the others but not this one, crazy stuff right their

 

[IrishBoy]

Re: 420 Cannasumer Reports Competition - GrowLEDHydro 300w LED vs. 400w HID

very nice post Lurker!!

learn some new things from that great post. Ive read allot of that stuff on some orchard sites, their packed with info on DM, this was the main reason why i chose to use this on my grow, because i new the temps were gonna be high and the DM had the temp issue worked out.

the funny thing is i went to lowes and seen those bottle but didnt look too good and never new they were DM.lol.. i was looking for a specific bottle like i bought at a different store..

now the red bottle witch i am using (vegetable and flower) uset to be use for the orchard, but now DM has a orchard TRF that i want to try. its a 10-10-17 NPK i think? i have been looking for the bottle to see how the micro profile is? but cant find it.. i would bet it will grow our plants great!!

mow it seems they changed the NPK on the ones at lowes? because it should be 13-13-13 not 12-3-13 so i would say its not the same.

thanks for the great info and you kinda broke down whats going on in my garden, i feel bad i should have posted that info a while ago but i am a lazy stoner.lol

 

[Setting Sun]

Re: 420 Cannasumer Reports Competition - ------------ 300w LED vs. 400w HID

I didn't see any bona fide ire here, just folks expressing an opinion, is all...I like a little gumption with my Gumbo. No oyster crackers, please; this be N'awlins Style!

Certainly nothing that degenerated into flaming or other childishness, but I sure do appreciate that we can sort things out amicably without you having to crack your can of whoop-ass, lol.

As you know, Nutricote and Dynamite are the same thing. Nutricote's been used for a few decades by the large agricultural interests. Except: Florikan figured that by re-branding it, they could get folks to pay $7-8 for 2lbs instead of $52 for 80lbs - and you don't have to have minimum order quantities of 5-6 bags just to get them to deliver. Not everyone's got an orchard...the new marketing seems to be working, too.

If I continue to use these CRF's extensively, I won't be buying them in little marked-up bottles. Ima get a big-assed bag .

You're gonna want to read that one for yourselves, guys. It pertains to YOU! (Yes, I'm makin' ya do some work...)

Thank you for the links, TL!

I've done a fair bit of homework as regards CRF's and how they work in different media and environments, and have read dozens of articles and university studies, which is why I decided to go with the DM purple on my next grow, even though OC+ performed admirably on my last one.

(go read the rest)

good stuff, and confirms what I've read elsewhere.

Sounds consistent with what Irish was seeing. Water 'em and they perk back up - water more often (but less each time instead of 'binge drinking'), and they seem happier.

I'm sure the same rules re: concentration apply here as they do with a hydro res: go from a 6 gal full res down to ~1-2 gal, and you'll start seeing toxicity/salt issues. Looks like ya need to keep the medium moist - especially if you're applying all the CRF to the pots at the start of the season.

The prills need a certain amount of moisture to perform properly.

Green Valley Agricultural Inc.,

Smaller meals instead of one big one, huh? Works for me. Takes away a bit from the 'just add water' simplicity, but if it's for a good cause - might be worth doing a little bit o' actual work to grow these plants, eh?

The only problem with smaller meals of CRF's throughout the grow is that a grower would have to top-dress the smaller meals, and that is a significantly less efficient way to deliver CRF nutes than incorporating them evenly into the medium at the get-go. I suspect that any advantage from the smaller meals may be negated by the less consistent delivery of nutes secondary to top-dressing.

The upper layer of most media, especially soilless media, is not a hospitable place for prills.

And, good information backed by personal experience is the best foundation from which to make any decision.

Perhaps I make it sound like I discount personal experience entirely, which is certainly not the case, I just won't petrify an opinion in my mind based on an isolated data point, no matter how tempting.

For instance, if I was Irish, I wouldn't ignore my experience with OC+ and high temps, and next summer I would choose a different CRF, because that's the practical thing to do, but I wouldn't form any *concrete* opinions about thiings based on a single grow.

I fully agree and commend you for encouraging folks to do their homework before using a new product. It's a lot of work to research something like CRF's, and I still have some questions I'm scouring the Internet for.

Unfortunately, at first glance, it doesn't look like Florikan transferred the Dynamite formulations into the Lowe's line of CRF's.

Especially if they're buds of mine. Be nice...or I just might have to Open Up a Can o' Whoop Ass on ya--!

there are few hills I would choose to die on today, and a hill of fertilizer certainly isn't one of them

thanks TL!

 

[Doc Bud]

Re: 420 Cannasumer Reports Competition - GrowLEDHydro 300w LED vs. 400w HID

what are you for real? wouldn't that cause problems? that cant be as good for ur plants or ur skin as PH down?

I knew about the others but not this one, crazy stuff right their

No....I'm dead serious. A hydrogen doner is a hydrogen donor. Sulphuric acid will lower pH every bit as good as phosphoric. There is no reason at all to not use battery acid. None.

pH down will burn your skin every bit as much as any other acid of the same concentration. Sulphuric or Phosphoric....makes no difference. None.

Actually, using phosphoric acid will also tend to form Calcium phosphate, which is not very useful to the plants, while nitric acid will make calcium nitrate....which plants can eat.

I'm not sure what sulfuric acid would have as a byproduct....but I guarantee you it will work every bit as good and every bit as safe as phosphoric acid in a hydro system.

So, again....I'm not kidding. Save some money and get Battery acid from Pep Boys.

Lot's of people thought I was nuts for recommending CRF's.....now look what happened.

There's a whole, great big world of gardening out there besides what goes on in the pot-forum world.

One more edit: I believe the byproduct of using sulphuric acid to lower the pH/TA of hard water would be gypsum....hydrated calcium sulfate. It's good for the soil structure.

So, I'm going to go out on a limb here.....battery acid (which is sulphuric acid) will actually work BETTER than normal pH down, because the byproducts won't effect the NPK of your medium/feed water.

 

[IrishBoy]

Re: 420 Cannasumer Reports Competition - GrowLEDHydro 300w LED vs. 400w HID

thanks Doc. thats crazy, never knew that..


Ya SS i wish i would have used TRF from the get go and could have mixed them into the medium instead of top dressing them, i bet the girls would be doing allot better. oh well next round i will mix it in..

i am thinking of scooping the top layer of OC+ out on the 2 pots and throwing DM in their, the OC+ just isn't cutting it, and i dont want to have to sit around and have to wait to harvest only 2 plants that were behind. i want to knock out the next grow asap. and enjoy the cooler temps while i can..

 

[go green]

Re: 420 Cannasumer Reports Competition - GrowLEDHydro 300w LED vs. 400w HID

My ladies are top-dressed with oc+...y'all need to get some dirt! hehehe

-Go

 

[Setting Sun]

Re: 420 Cannasumer Reports Competition - GrowLEDHydro 300w LED vs. 400w HID

If you can't get battery acid, you can get sulfuric acid labeled "ph down" in the pool chemicals section of hardware stores.

Quart bottle costs about $6 at OSH.

As far as your OC plants, I would just leave the OC in there, take something like a sharpened 1/2" dowel and make some deep holes in the medium. If you encounter any resistance when you make the holes, stop pushing and find another spot, but a sharpened object should slide through the roots without major trauma.

Then just sprinkle the prills down into the bottom of those holes and you'll get better nute delivery than top-dressing.

 

[Setting Sun]

Re: 420 Cannasumer Reports Competition - GrowLEDHydro 300w LED vs. 400w HID

My ladies are top-dressed with oc+...y'all need to get some dirt! hehehe

-Go

In dirt, top dressing works better than in most soilless media because dirt retains water better, but it will work even better in dirt when incorporated evenly into the mix.

Temperature and moisture levels fluctuate much more at the surface layer of *any* media.

 

[IrishBoy]

Re: 420 Cannasumer Reports Competition - GrowLEDHydro 300w LED vs. 400w HID

If you can't get battery acid, you can get sulfuric acid labeled "ph down" in the pool chemicals section of hardware stores.

Quart bottle costs about $6 at OSH.

As far as your OC plants, I would just leave the OC in there, take something like a sharpened 1/2" dowel and make some deep holes in the medium. If you encounter any resistance when you make the holes, stop pushing and find another spot, but a sharpened object should slide through the roots without major trauma.

Then just sprinkle the prills down into the bottom of those holes and you'll get better nute delivery than top-dressing.

 

[Setting Sun]

Re: 420 Cannasumer Reports Competition - GrowLEDHydro 300w LED vs. 400w HID

when making the holes, it's good to use a twisting motion as if drilling, and there will be even less chance of doing any damage.

 

[HorseBadoritz]

Re: 420 Cannasumer Reports Competition - GrowLEDHydro 300w LED vs. 400w HID

Thanks TL and SS for keeping the information coming.

I am a fan of CRFs, but I'm not betting the ranch on them as far pot farming... can't hurt to dabble, tho

The florikan stuff at lowe's is not exactly the same as Dynamite. SS led me to Black Gold, who now owns Dynamite, but doesn't seem to sell it anywhere!

I've got a coco hempy bucket going with OC+ incorporated, and I'll spend 7 bucks to see if the new lowe's stuff is good, bad, or indifferent. Small time, but it'll physically show me something.

I still don't see the present offerings of TRFs as all it takes to grow really great weed, but I am sure if enough 420 folks mess with them, we can learn to tweak them for our own unique situations, very few of which are perfect

Discourse is good, but is dis a course? just kidding, kids!

 

[molotov]

Re: 420 Cannasumer Reports Competition - GrowLEDHydro 300w LED vs. 400w HID

Has anyone looked into this Dynamite product. I guess it's new.

 

[IrishBoy]

Re: 420 Cannasumer Reports Competition - GrowLEDHydro 300w LED vs. 400w HID

Has anyone looked into this Dynamite product. I guess it's new.

IMO their organic tomato ones better. well at least the profile is IMO

 

[Setting Sun]

Re: 420 Cannasumer Reports Competition - GrowLEDHydro 300w LED vs. 400w HID

Update on where things are at.

This is the coco I picked up at OSH for this grow. It's sold by Hydrofarm and can be used without rinsing. The carbon just happened to be sitting there when I took the pic.

https://www.horticulturesource.com/pdfs/31549_CocoMixInstr.pdf

As above, it takes seven gallons of water to hydrate the whole brick. I pre-charged the coco by adding 5ml per gallon of Botanicare Cal-Mag, and 2 tsp per gallon of Fox Farms Grow Big Hydro.

I'm using RO water for this grow, and the cal-mag and Grow Big gave me a ppm of 350 and PH of 5.9, which should help stabilize the coco.

The Grow Big was just to pre-charge the coco before transplanting. After the clones are transplanted, I'm not going to use anything other than the Dynamite purple CRF, which I'll mix evenly into the medium, and RO water supplemented with cal-mag.

This is after about an hour soaking. It's almost evenly hydrated already. This coco is way better quality than the no-name brick I bought on ebay. The texture is much nicer, and it hydrated far more easily.

These are the clones that I'm going to use for the comparison. I decided to take bel's suggestion and plant them deep.

Burying the stem will do at least two good things. It will produce more roots coming off the buried part of the stem, which is always good, and since the plants will be shortened, it will give us a little more veg time and a better idea of how the lights compare in veg.

The clones are a bit over 12" now, so we would have very little veg time under the LED and HID otherwise, and personally, I want to get a better idea of how veg performance compares.

The additional roots and veg time should produce more robust plants, the roots will already be near or at the bottom of the bucket when I transplant, so I thought it was a good idea all around.

Here they are after I pruned all the lower branches. I'll bury them deep into the hempy buckets tomorrow after they've healed up.