photos
New Member
thats pro heir , im stealing the recipe and bringing it to globogym
Welcome All My Friends To The Show That Never Ends - Canna M & Nismo12 Team Up!
- Thread starter Canna Montana
- Start date
-
- Tags
- autos bubble hash cloning have perpetual
thats pro heir , im stealing the recipe and bringing it to globogym
It takes, what, five generations (or was that four? I forget...) to "fix" the desired trait, in this case to produce a stable autoflower (that is to say, one that the grower can be more or less assured that it will autoflower, as opposed to might or even probably will)? Been 15 or more years since I messed with breeding for stable appearance of desired traits in successive generations.
That's exactly correct!
I had a post earlier in this journal mentioning the difference between producing feminized seeds and being able to produce a stable strain. Generally, you want 4 or 5 generations, since with more generations, you get less variance in the offspring.
Stabilizing a strain I've heard compared to being able to produce clones in seed form. The traits become highly predictable.
Here's a good article discussing this:
[h=1]Cannabis Genetics 101: Stabilising a strain[/h]
Stabilising cannabis Procedures to stabilise cannabis strains are poorly understood, even by breeders producing commercial strains. Stability refers to the variability and predictability found in the offspring of a parent generation: when a strain is unstable, variability will be high and predictability low; with a stable strain, the reverse is true.
Cultivation
7 0
[h=2]Variability & predictability[/h]Mendelian inheritance at its most simple – 25% of offspring have the type AA, 25% are aa and 50% are Aa Variability in this case refers to the range of different phenotypes that will express when hybridising two different strains; predictability refers to the expected distribution ratio of the different phenotypes. When crossing stable parents, Mendelian inheritance dictates that: 50% of the offspring will resemble both parents equally, 25% will express traits closer to the mother and 25% closer to the father.
Usually, breeders will stabilise a strain over several generations. First, a healthy mother and father are selected, and bred to produce hybrid offspring that will be of varying predictability depending on parent stability. Hence, if the mother and father are both considered stable, their offspring would be expected to express three phenotypes as outlined above.
[h=2]Stable vs. true-breeding[/h] It is important to note that ‘stable’ does not equate to ‘true-breeding’. A true-breeding strain is one that will produce consistent offspring of one dominant phenotype (with few to no specimens unlike their siblings); in cannabis, these are usually found among the landraces and traditional cultivars. Further, breeders may use the term true-breeding to refer to single traits that will always recur (such as purpling or webbed leaves), rather than for overall phenotypic expression.
Stable parents usually produce predictable, homozygous offspring, although with a greater degree of variation than found in true-breeding strains. However, if one or more parents is unstable, crossing them together results in a range of heterozygous offspring that can express any number of unpredictable traits, and which will not correspond to predictable Mendelian ratios.
The traits that are dominant in each parent are recombined to provide the genetic basis for the next generation. The initial crossing of two unrelated parents is known as the filial-1 (f1) hybrid. Usually, the best examples of the f1 hybrids will be crossed to produce the f2 generation, which is usually even more unstable than the f1.
[h=2]Crossing & back-crossing[/h] With several generations of crossing together brothers and sisters from the same parents—selecting on the basis of desirable traits—a greater degree of consistency and therefore predictability can be achieved. Desired traits become dominant and will always appear, while undesirable traits are gradually eliminated from the gene pool and are no longer expressed.
For some traits, back-crossing plants to previous generations allows traits to become stabilised more quickly. Many breeders erroneously believe that some degree of back-crossing is necessary to stabilise any strain, but in reality this technique is only required for certain characteristics.
[h=2]Inbreeding depression[/h]A simple diagram showing the potential for inbreeding to render unwanted, recessive traits dominant After crossing and possibly back-crossing for several generations, the desired traits should begin to express in all individuals. However, after many generations of essentially limiting and reducing the gene pool so that only desired traits express, the resulting paucity of genetic material can lead to a level of inbreeding that is detrimental to the overall health and sustainability of the strain.
Put simply, if two related parents both carry the same recessive allele, which happens to be defective or otherwise deleterious, the chances of two identical copies passing to the offspring are far higher than with unrelated parents. If two individuals carrying these faulty alleles then breed with each other, the undesirable trait will be dominant and breed true in all subsequent generations of the lineage.
[h=2]Outbreeding for improved diversity[/h] For this reason, when strains begin to experience such severe inbreeding (known as inbreeding depression), it is common to introduce a new, unrelated father in a process known as outbreeding.
Inbreeding depression will occur more slowly if there is an abundance of genetic material from which to form new offspring. Therefore, with smaller population sizes, inbreeding depression can occur rapidly. This is especially common in countries with a strong cannabis-using culture that have not decriminalised the means of production, such as the Netherlands where small libraries are maintained due to risk of discovery.
- Thread starter
- #1,744
That's a great lot of info Mr. K! Thanks for being so helpful to us and everyone who stops by here!
Oops, lol. I subscribed "already in progress," then spaced for a while and forgot to read along (and ended up skipping a bunch) - and then somehow managed to do that again, lol. I must be getting lazier as I age. Err... I mean lazy
.Well... With an IBL you can still expect to see some variance between random specimens, at least with a decent population size to sample from (and it looks like you've touched on why a larger population size is important - I used to say, "drop five couples on a desert island, then DON'T expect the resulting great-great-grandchildren to win any IQ competitions, lol"). But, yes, they'll still be recognizable as being the same strain.
With clones, I would not expect to see any real variance from the parent - since it's not, technically speaking, a parent after all.
I have not done enough strains with it to say that the recipe works like a 'pro'. It just worked really well for fruit punch.
That there is my legal disclaimer.
I have more seed projects already lined up, 2 tangerine dreams, another HSO blue dream and more fruit punch. All in hempy pots. The next couple months are going to be busy!
- Thread starter
- #1,747
Re: Welcome All My Friends To The Show That Never Ends - Canna M & Nismo12 Team Up!
Nothing wrong with keeping the mind busy with things like that!! Awesome dude!!!I have not done enough strains with it to say that the recipe works like a 'pro'. It just worked really well for fruit punch.
That there is my legal disclaimer.
I have more seed projects already lined up, 2 tangerine dreams, another HSO blue dream and more fruit punch. All in hempy pots. The next couple months are going to be busy!
True. The only variation I would expect there to be with clones would be adaptation to environment and the very random natural mutation (say a neutrino or other rogue particle rips though the right area of DNA or RNA) ....over enough generations.
I'll be honest with you guys, when I hear all of this fancy talk about breeding I think of this part in the movie pineapple express lol
[video=youtube_share;8TUTxAK1EqQ]
[/video]
[video=youtube_share;8TUTxAK1EqQ]
photos
New Member
im always saying this about stability you want 2 phenos max and even those to be similar in my eyes for the strain to be a new strain not just a cross and i feel a real lot of the seeds we buy are not stable enough
I fully agree! My statement was more of an analogy as to the objectives of stabilization.
The clones have the same genetic make-up as the donor, so should all be identical to the ONE parent. With breeding, there are TWO parents, so there's always the chance of a trait showing up in an offspring that you didn't want (just ask my parents!
), which is why that larger population has real benefits for selective breeding. Stabilization just makes the results much more predictable so, when you pop 100 seeds, instead of 20 of them having the intended traits (not stable), 80 of them will (stable).
Agreed! I think many of the breeders only go 3 generations so have a lot of variance. Additionally, I recently pointed out on another thread that there are NO standards, so you can order (for example) Northern Lights from five different breeders and end up with certainly five different phenos (or 25 different phenos if you pop five seeds from each of the five breeders!
)
BTW, many times late in flower a TRUE female will put out a seed or two without being pollinated by a male and without being a "hermie", per se. The Blue OG I'm growing now was one of those seeds. These seeds are true genetic clones of the mother in seed form!
photos
New Member
spot on mr K , its why folks sog from clone more often than seed , too many phenos , sure you pop enough beans you might get the plant you bought the seeds for "might" wtf is this LOL
photos
New Member
yep ive had that happen on monster grows seems to me the longer the veg the higher chance
Funny, I think the longer the flower, the higher the chance, but you may be correct on that. I assumed it was some "survival of the species" reaction where, if the female doesn't get pollinated late into flower, you know how they get! They're like, "Fine, I'll just do it myself!"
photos
New Member
haha yeah that aswell mr k for sure hahaha top post
Yes, that is exactly what happens...if a female plant blooms long enough and starts to go into the sesanace stage this is when she will try to pollinate herself...it's a survival of the species thing! Have a great day gang!Funny, I think the longer the flower, the higher the chance, but you may be correct on that. I assumed it was some "survival of the species" reaction where, if the female doesn't get pollinated late into flower, you know how they get! They're like, "Fine, I'll just do it myself!"
photos
New Member
still though on all my huge plants i always find 1 or 2 seeds and ill have other plants flowering aswell all finishing up together but only the monster/s will have the non herm seed or 2 for me .
could just be that the more buds on any given plant the more buda that have a chance of it happening i guess.
your 100 % correct dugs on the "why" it happens .
im just thinking my plants that have been vegged longer are themain culprits , funny you know i have all the seeds still i havent grown them i keep them for souvenier as i already have seeds of that strain ill put the fem one away and it makes me feel a lot better about having chopped her down ,like shes still around just magically shrunk down and crammed in a seed ,ill be all like ,see this seed theres minimum 59 oz in this seed , infinate if you clone it ,this 1 seed could fill this house ,the street,the town ,the city,the state ,the countrym THE WORLD ! lol thats how sentimental i get about those seeds ,starts with remwmbering the monster it came from i haveca bong continue to gaze at the miricle seed and i go from there haha
could just be that the more buds on any given plant the more buda that have a chance of it happening i guess.
your 100 % correct dugs on the "why" it happens .
im just thinking my plants that have been vegged longer are themain culprits , funny you know i have all the seeds still i havent grown them i keep them for souvenier as i already have seeds of that strain ill put the fem one away and it makes me feel a lot better about having chopped her down ,like shes still around just magically shrunk down and crammed in a seed ,ill be all like ,see this seed theres minimum 59 oz in this seed , infinate if you clone it ,this 1 seed could fill this house ,the street,the town ,the city,the state ,the countrym THE WORLD ! lol thats how sentimental i get about those seeds ,starts with remwmbering the monster it came from i haveca bong continue to gaze at the miricle seed and i go from there haha
MagicJim
Creme de la Creme Photos: Sept 2016
