forgot to add the par / ppfd of two led rigs often out perform the sum total of each alone. this was the same with hid. two 600w hps placed properly has better results than one 1200. a big part is coverage, but there is other stuff at play.
Watts vs PPFD: which do you use?
- Thread starter The70’s
- Start date
forgot to add the par / ppfd of two led rigs often out perform the sum total of each alone. this was the same with hid. two 600w hps placed properly has better results than one 1200. a big part is coverage, but there is other stuff at play.
Emilya Green
Well-Known Member
I used multi source lighting with 2x 600w HID back in the day and practically eliminated shadows in my grow room... and definitely got better results. By using HPS and MH, I also enjoyed a multi spectrum advantage too
- Thread starter
- #83
The70’s
Well-Known Member
Wow, so much more than meets the eye
Definitely agree with this! I rock 3 smaller LED panels in my 3x5 tents, vs 1 single big one.... Provides me more flexibility with different height plants/canopy, more even light footprint and less variability in hotspots/shaded areas, and with multiple point sources of light and angles of penetration, it reduces the shadowing on lower canopy too
- Thread starter
- #85
The70’s
Well-Known Member
Integards to subwoofers, theres no replacement for displacement, sounds like the same with litesDefinitely agree with this! I rock 3 smaller LED panels in my 3x5 tents, vs 1 single big one.... Provides me more flexibility with different height plants/canopy, more even light footprint and less variability in hotspots/shaded areas, and with multiple point sources of light and angles of penetration, it reduces the shadowing on lower canopy too
Mayne
Well-Known Member
i had nice comp woofers back in the day. Made by Mobile Spec, ProIce series, 900RMS, they were baddda$$. Now, 1 son has the 1 that works, and another son has 1 as a paperweight, LOL.. He is destine to fix it, probably will too, lol. He currently has 2x scars that slam in a jeep xsport, pushing 1800 watts i think it is.
Delps8
Well-Known Member
To put it bluntly, IDFK. I'm not currently doing so, but hope to start gardening again in a month or so. My intentions are to use my grow tent - a 100 cm × 100 cm Mars Hydro, so that's an area of one square meter (~10.764 square feet). It's also listed as being 39" × 39", but I assume that's due to lazy rounding. If not... 10.5625 square feet.
I have a brand new light to use in there. The company does not pay to advertise here, so I cannot post a live link. But if you, Icemud, and/or anyone else wants to take a look at the company's web page for it - specifically, the PAR maps published there - and tell me what I've got (lol) , and make recommendations vis-à-vis power level and hanging height, I would greatly appreciate it.
The light is an LED panel. AC Infinity IonBoard S44. I could have gotten the S33. When trying to decide, I sent an email to the company's contact address and the smaller one was recommended, but... The S33 is advertised for a 3'×3' space, and it - like most of them - suffers a good bit of drop-off near the perimeter of its advertised coverage area, and my tent is slightly (19.6%, so more than slightly, really) larger than 3'×3'. That S33 is only a 240-watt device. The S44, on the other hand, is a 400-watt light. It uses the usual Samsung LM-301B diodes, by the way (IDK about the red ones). It also appears to have serious dropp-off near the perimeter of its advertised coverage area - but my thinking was, I get the one that's meant for a larger area, and that won't be an issue, lol. Physically, it's just under 2'×2' in size, and its diodes are not evenly spaced (denser near the corners than in the center, although there's still a major bright spot under it, and it still fades at the edges, so...).
And IDK. I'll be growing autoflowering plants, so either 18 or 20 hours of light per day. NO supplemental CO2. However, the temperature will be miserably hot (easily 90°F, probably hotter), so the plants should be able to process the maximum amount of light-energy that a cannabis plant is capable of processing at "normal" levels of carbon dioxide. I was thinking that I might be able to get by with running the light at 80% power level? I'd like to run it at 20%- or at least no more than 60%, but IDK whether that will be adequate? The dinner only has 20% adjustment steps, so my choices are 80, 160, 240, 320, and 400 watts.
I also anticipate problems with the electric bill, so I really don't want to run it at more wattage than I need to.
Again, I cannot post a link to its web page. But a Google search for
... should list it at near the top of the search results. If I'd had to pay for it, I would have bought from one of the forum sponsors, so I could post links,, upload PAR map images, and ask questions on the sponsor's thread. But... well... If I'd had to pay for a light, I wouldn't have been able to get any. It was a gift from someone who wants me to grow. . . .Code:AC Infinity IonBoard S44
I was going to just say "Follow the manufacturer's recommendations" but I decided to have a look for myself. Something does not add up. The PPFD map show 1259 µmols in the very center area of the light and 1089 in the 2' square in the middle. The owner's manual says to run the light at 18" and at 40% power. Running at 40% will get you roughly 40% of the PPFD. (1089*0.4)*18*0.0036= 29 mols. As of my current grow, I light seedlings with 25 mols. I think 28 might be a little high.
If you drop the hang height to 12" and go with 20% for 21.6 hours that's 25/1609*.2*0.036 - we want 25 moles and the light puts out 1609 µmols. So it's 1609*0.2*0.0036 = 1.16 mols in 1 hour so you're have to run it 21.6 hours to get 25 mols.
After that, do 60% at 14" in veg or all the way through for autos. That will give you about 754 µmols which is a really good light level to work with. You could also go with 80% at 18" would be 891 µmols which is just below the magic 900 µmol mark. That's a lot of light but should be OK if everything else is dialed in.
I understood the "do 60% at 14" in veg or all the way through for autos" part 
.
EDIT: Really, 240 watts across a square meter will be sufficient? Huh...
.EDIT: Really, 240 watts across a square meter will be sufficient? Huh...
Delps8
Well-Known Member
I understood the "do 60% at 14" in veg or all the way through for autos" part
EDIT: Really, 240 watts across a square meter will be sufficient? Huh...
Those are the numbers for the SS44.
Delps8
Well-Known Member
I understood the "do 60% at 14" in veg or all the way through for autos" part
EDIT: Really, 240 watts across a square meter will be sufficient? Huh...
I was looking at the numbers for the
That's the one that I have, SS44. (Whoops - S44 (only one "S").)
Delps8
Well-Known Member
Got it. Those numbers should work out OK. The 20% jumps and trying to use the lower hang heights, so save electricity, made it a little tricky to figure out and I didn't do anything fancy. I just ran the numbers by hand.
I did just read that a 400-watt HPS has an efficiency of 1.65 micromoles per joule. The IonBoard S44, apparently, has an efficiency of 2.75 µmol/j. Therefore... multiplying by 1.5 (18 hours instead of 12), and completely ignoring any differences in footprint shape... Yeah, in theory, I can see how it might be just barely sufficient. Maybe.
This one is kind of important to me. I'm already looking at having to give up and move in with my mother (elderly, not anywhere near "robust," and requires more and more assistance). But the plan was to do that some time around early next Spring. I've just realized that I won't be able to even minimally heat my house if the cost of natural gas ends up being more than it was last Winter. Which appears to be a certainty, at this point. So I've got until December at the latest, probably, to do a complete cannabis grow.
This one is kind of important to me. I'm already looking at having to give up and move in with my mother (elderly, not anywhere near "robust," and requires more and more assistance). But the plan was to do that some time around early next Spring. I've just realized that I won't be able to even minimally heat my house if the cost of natural gas ends up being more than it was last Winter. Which appears to be a certainty, at this point. So I've got until December at the latest, probably, to do a complete cannabis grow.
those numbers might not mean anything in the real world.
far too often the maps are mostly marketing. plenty of times the mfgr hasn't done an actual measurement. even when they do it is not third party independent testing.
things always change once a fixture is installed as well. the size of your space and added bounce can help, and definitely changes the map. one tip i give to new folk is to buy a rig one size up from the size of the grow space. if they run a 2 x 2 i'd recommend a light rated for a 3 x 3 .. etc.
far too often the maps are mostly marketing. plenty of times the mfgr hasn't done an actual measurement. even when they do it is not third party independent testing.
things always change once a fixture is installed as well. the size of your space and added bounce can help, and definitely changes the map. one tip i give to new folk is to buy a rig one size up from the size of the grow space. if they run a 2 x 2 i'd recommend a light rated for a 3 x 3 .. etc.
Yeah, it'll be a place to start from.
Me, too. And I followed my own advice when I chose the S44 instead of the S33.
I had 2 12" earthquake magma's, custom polyfiber box, 1000w bridged amp, 5 farad cap, clarion head unit and yamaha crossover.... all in a mustang hatchback
it would make cig/weed smoke vibrate through the air... Love having the bump in my trunk... still have the subs, but havent used them in decades. those were the days...
I agree with what Bluter is saying here... When I was big into testing LED's and such, i found more often than not the LED companies were practically making up their numbers on the par charts and the only ones I could really trust were ones I tested myself, or ones that used actual 3rd party testing and photogonio meters to map out the par readings.
Also a lot of LED mfgs do their PAR testing inside reflective tents, which is inaccurate to the real world and cheating IMO.
Mayne
Well-Known Member
Bro, nice set-up!!!! Those Earthquakes are no joke man, AND in a hatchback?! Would of loved to hear that for sure.. Knew a dude that ported his Earthquakes thru the floors so the flow hit the streets, could feel the earth move, lol..I had 2 12" earthquake magma's, custom polyfiber box, 1000w bridged amp, 5 farad cap, clarion head unit and yamaha crossover.... all in a mustang hatchback
those were the days...
Mayne
Well-Known Member
cough, cough, Mars, cough cough
Delps8
Well-Known Member
I like that - "Grade 2 bogus".
That works for Whitman's but if they spec the components of a product, I think it can be successfully argued that they're required to provide the product specified. I did just one term of law - contract law - and it was in the Great White North but our legal system has a lot of similarity…except in Louisiana.plenty of times they will spec mean well hlg but ship with an elg, which is perfectly acceptable, and even a superior driver in some instances, but it is the lower priced quality mean well, reducing manufacture costs as much as 8 - 10 %.
at other times pairu winds up in the product. i've seen them extend lines with grade 2 components while new ones are in development. sometimes they change the original advertised spec, other times not so much.
the chipset is another crucial area i've seen not show up exactly spec.
it's like a box of chocolates ..
a 10% cost savings on a driver is nothing to sneeze at. a 320 watt HLG retails at $100 so Mar is paying $30±? If they can drop that off of the cost and keep their price up, that goes right to the bottom line.
What DLI's do you use?i run my entire grow at 24 inches but use active dimming all through. when the canopy hits 18 inches i raise the rig - actually i shelf grow and lower the floor but same same lol
i over light and use dimming. i also do a big jump in light from veg to flower, going from 200w to 600w, 4 cob rig to 12 cob rig.
I saw your comment about show lighting - tons of change their, eh? Thinking of which, I did a project for Live Nation Studios in the late aughts to help manager post production. Fascinating stuff.
Re. "before" - must be interesting to see the technology evolve. $64k question - who's your favorite manufacturer?