Watts vs PPFD: which do you use?

[Icemud]

BUT, im willing to bet, my meter would be within 5% of anything it goes against, LOL.. Good enough for my needs. Heck, i remember i made a spectrometer out of a cereal box and a CD, LOL..

dwcjune4-1

• Mayne
• Jun 4, 2017

Oh my gosh!!! LOL I remember the cereal box spectrometer.. I even made a thread here about it back like a decade ago... its crazy because it actually worked quite well to break up the spectrum into a more visible represenation of each wavelength/color. Wow... I totally forgot about that until you mentioned it...

DIY Spectrometer - Check what wavelengths your lights give out

Hey everyone... I did not invent this idea but I did want to share it here at 420 Magazine, since it applies to growing. I learned how to make a Spectrometer on You Tube, but its really quite simple so I will try to explain. What it is: A spectrometer to put it quite simple, takes the light...

www.420magazine.com

That was around the time of my 1st grow and I went all out "full spectrum" and had a Phillips Retro White Ceramic Metal Halide and a Ushio Optired HPS (1000w in a 3x5 tent)... haha

 

[Icemud]

The PulsePro has a photospectrometer in it. I have the PulseOne. It reads temperature and RH and calculates VPD. I rely on it completely to help me control RH and temperature to maintain VPD. The Pro adds CO2 and spectrum analysis but it's not cheap at $500.

That is actually quite a cool device.... I definitely wouldn't mind having a nice data logger for temp, humidity and vpd in my tents.. I'm pretty much suseptable to the outdoor environment but would be nice to actually have trackable data to compare with weather and humidity changes that swing from 0RH to 60RH when the winds change.

 

[Icemud]

THANKS BROTHER. I will keep that in mind for sure.

If you ever plan to upgrade, dont skimp on PerfectSun LED, I will never use another light myself. I think Neil revolutionized the LED industry early on personally. Pretty sure he was the first to put lenses on smd chip LEDs. But his lights are no joke. You see the monster he has going now, unreal..

The dwarf Star that Im using now, is only 240 watts, and last grow, i didnt even use more then 200watts in flower, didnt need to. Not plugging PerfectSun, just its a bad ass light, lol.. Gives a 600watt HPS a run for its money.


I still have a Photon Phantom from Wayyyyy back when Board lights first became mainstream.. I actually won it, and was the last we seen of dude. I even have a GrowPro HM660Pro that is still in the box, that i probably will never use, lol..

A12-12--day36-wed5.png

• Mayne
• Apr 25, 2018

Good to know that they are still around and producing good lights. I remember when they first came to the forums many years ago. Crazy because I looked back at the cereal box spectrometer thread and realized I've been using these same COB's since 2015!! yikes... I mean its good they still are 100% functional but wow... the efficiency has been surpassed so much with todays tech... I can only imagine how much more light output I would get with new panels...

I still have so many grow lights I used for testing grows back in the day that I don't even use... I've sold a few but nobody seems to want the older "blurple" tech anymore...so still have a bunch on hand...LOL. I'm a grow light hoarder.... i admit it... LOL.

 

[bluter]

Good to know that they are still around and producing good lights. I remember when they first came to the forums many years ago. Crazy because I looked back at the cereal box spectrometer thread and realized I've been using these same COB's since 2015!! yikes... I mean its good they still are 100% functional but wow... the efficiency has been surpassed so much with todays tech... I can only imagine how much more light output I would get with new panels...

I still have so many grow lights I used for testing grows back in the day that I don't even use... I've sold a few but nobody seems to want the older "blurple" tech anymore...so still have a bunch on hand...LOL. I'm a grow light hoarder.... i admit it... LOL.

cob doesn't lose efficiency the same as a smaller emitter. i have rigs easily over ten yrs old now. most have lost about 10- 20%. the majority of the loss is in the drivers. i recently replaced drivers on a 7yr old rig and it fired up more efficient than when new.

even smaller emitters won't lose much if they are driven proper from the start. most good rigs are essentially built to pull 50% capacity. cheaper builders will try drive them a bit higher. there are some well known names that do this. most of them run a bit hotter, the driver will be run higher, and the rig lasts in the neighbourhood of 3 - 5 yrs tops. the lifespan works for the mfgr as they want to upsell as you grow.

 

[Icemud]

cob doesn't lose efficiency the same as a smaller emitter. i have rigs easily over ten yrs old now. most have lost about 10- 20%. the majority of the loss is in the drivers. i recently replaced drivers on a 7yr old rig and it fired up more efficient than when new.

even smaller emitters won't lose much if they are driven proper from the start. most good rigs are essentially built to pull 50% capacity. cheaper builders will try drive them a bit higher. there are some well known names that do this. most of them run a bit hotter, the driver will be run higher, and the rig lasts in the neighbourhood of 3 - 5 yrs tops. the lifespan works for the mfgr as they want to upsell as you grow.

The citizin COBs have a LM80 of 90000 hours and a LM 90 of 48000 hours which is extremely good compared to many SMD chips. But what I meant was todays LEDs as opposed to LED/COB from 2015 are far superior in luminous efficiency meaning a top tier LED grow light in 2015 was only getting around 1.8 mol/joule where todays arrays are getting 2.7-2.9 mol/joule which are outputting about 30% more light for the same energy used... Even though my COBs are amazing, with todays panels I would be getting far more light output for the same wattage used

I'm definitely really happy with the COBs i have and they have grown some absolutely amazing plants and have had zero failures other than 2 of the cooling fans stopped working (which is another win for the newer arrays with passive cooling, no moving parts to break. You are correct though that thermal design is the biggest component in LED/Chip longevity and lumen depreciation. the hotter the junction temp of the LED gets, the quicker it loses efficiency and lifespan. You are correct that the harder the chips are driven, the more they lose efficiency as well. The new efficiencies definitely have me looking at upgrading in the near future

 

[Smokey0418]

So, since im new to growing im exploring more and more. Sometimes it’s important, sometimes its not. I thought my watt meter and a yard stick was all i needed to dial in my grow lites.

How do u measure your lites, how do you get it at least what your plants need at any given phase.

New grower here go easy Lol

SpotOn full spectrum quantum meter .

Growing not guessing.

 

[Mayne]

For $340, nope... I will get close enough with my $27 meter.

 

[Smokey0418]

SpotOn full spectrum quantum meter .

Growing not guessing.

This unit does dli also.

Similar to a micrometer in a machine shop.

Except this is a grow shop.

 

[Mayne]

This unit does dli also.

Similar to a micrometer in a machine shop.

Except this is a grow shop.

Ive been fascinated from day 1 on the whole LIGHT-PFFD-PAR-SPEC , When i can, i will get one for sure. Just because, lol..

 

[Emilya Green]

SpotOn full spectrum quantum meter .

Growing not guessing.

if someone near me gets one of these I am going to borrow it for a day, just so I can compare all of my lights against the real measurement a meter of this quality would provide.
From then on, I could go with my cheapo LUX meter and with just a little math, I would know exactly where I was at. For now, I make a good educated guess based on multiple grows while I adjusted the lights in each room to see how the plants react. I like to go right up to the limit while watching for the signs that tell me I need to back down. By comparing inspections of the plants to the LUX reading under each light, I have a set of numbers in my head that seem to work pretty well at the various stages, but in is also clear that some of the lights in my stable are "hotter" than other ones.

I probably wouldn't know what to do with the real PAR numbers, but it would be very cool to know exactly what I was doing... just not sure it is worth all that money. If I was really curious, I could probably compare to the PAR or ppfd charts given by the manufacturers of my lights, and also get very close to the real number based on distance and the placement within the light pattern.

 

[The70’s]

If i multiply the Lux reading by .015, it gives me an approx Par reading, it was compared to a Par meter in a video i watched, good enough for me.

I used it also to find the best spot where the readings didnt fall off under the lites

 

[Mayne]

If i multiply the Lux reading by .015, it gives me an approx Par reading, it was compared to a Par meter in a video i watched, good enough for me.

I used it also to find the best spot where the readings didnt fall off under the lites

basically what i did, but i multiply by .017,,,,,
Good for you, hope it might help ya..

 

[The70’s]

Where there’s a will……

 

[Smokey0418]

if someone near me gets one of these I am going to borrow it for a day, just so I can compare all of my lights against the real measurement a meter of this quality would provide.
From then on, I could go with my cheapo LUX meter and with just a little math, I would know exactly where I was at. For now, I make a good educated guess based on multiple grows while I adjusted the lights in each room to see how the plants react. I like to go right up to the limit while watching for the signs that tell me I need to back down. By comparing inspections of the plants to the LUX reading under each light, I have a set of numbers in my head that seem to work pretty well at the various stages, but in is also clear that some of the lights in my stable are "hotter" than other ones.

I probably wouldn't know what to do with the real PAR numbers, but it would be very cool to know exactly what I was doing... just not sure it is worth all that money. If I was really curious, I could probably compare to the PAR or ppfd charts given by the manufacturers of my lights, and also get very close to the real number based on distance and the placement within the light pattern.

What I liked in flower was I could bring my light down to 900 ppfd and not worry about burn but also encountered the best flowers ever .

So no complaints from my purchase.

 

[Delps8]

SpotOn full spectrum quantum meter .

Growing not guessing.

Congrats on the purchase. When I was in the market for a PAR meter, this model wasn't available//I didn't know about it so I ended up with an Apogee. If I was in the market today, I'd probably go with the SpotOn.

A couple of things - I use a wand even though my tent is only 2 x 4. The wand really does make it easy to reach anywhere in the tent. Also, I think this link should work even though your meter isn't an Apogee. I called Apogee a couple of months ago and they gave me that link. The customer service rep stressed that you need to make sure that you test on a very clear day. Smog or haze will throw off your reading.

"Growing, not guessing." I like that. Even though I've had the Apogee for three grows, I've been keeping my DLI < 50 mols (growing autos). I spent a few minutes looking at light info and decided to watch the De Bacco University video on lighting. I know that I've listened to De Bacco a few times but it wasn't until last night that it sunk in - cannabis in a non-CO2 environment should be given 65 mols if you're running 24/0 or 58 mols at 18/6. Yeh, that's shitton of light and I haven't pushed my grow to that level because…

About an hour ago, I cranked the light from 255 watts to 313 watts. Using a PAR meter, I was "not guessing" about how much light was (is) hitting the colas.

One last thought - I've pasted in the data that I capture/calculate by "sampling" with the Apogee. If the SpotOn has a sample function, you might want to see if this is of any value to you.

256 - wattags
18 - lights on period
# - sequence number (just because I'm a programmer…)
Numbers across the bottom are based only on the PPFD/DLI values where DLI>= 35
Far left and far right columns are the standard deviation of PPFD and DLI, respectively.
The % numbers indicate the % of colas that are <= 35 mols, > 45 mols, or between those values.

For me, it provides insight into how well I'm able to light the canopy and it allows me to see that I've got some "hotspots".

HTH.

 

[bluter]

as someone who worked with production lighting i find this all really funny


edit : if you are super serious apogee or fluke are the go to meters. we used fluke. it's total overkill for a home grow space. i wouldn't bother unless you have access to one for free.

 

[bluter]

Ive been fascinated from day 1 on the whole LIGHT-PFFD-PAR-SPEC , When i can, i will get one for sure. Just because, lol..

all meters are par meters. doesn't matter what you get, that's the only thing they measure. they run an algorithm to give you a lux or ppfd result. but they only ever measure par.


same as ppm probe. they all only measure ec. but they can do the math for you to display ec / 700 scale / or 500 scale.

 

[Smokey0418]

Congrats on the purchase. When I was in the market for a PAR meter, this model wasn't available//I didn't know about it so I ended up with an Apogee. If I was in the market today, I'd probably go with the SpotOn.

A couple of things - I use a wand even though my tent is only 2 x 4. The wand really does make it easy to reach anywhere in the tent. Also, I think this link should work even though your meter isn't an Apogee. I called Apogee a couple of months ago and they gave me that link. The customer service rep stressed that you need to make sure that you test on a very clear day. Smog or haze will throw off your reading.

"Growing, not guessing." I like that. Even though I've had the Apogee for three grows, I've been keeping my DLI < 50 mols (growing autos). I spent a few minutes looking at light info and decided to watch the De Bacco University video on lighting. I know that I've listened to De Bacco a few times but it wasn't until last night that it sunk in - cannabis in a non-CO2 environment should be given 65 mols if you're running 24/0 or 58 mols at 18/6. Yeh, that's shitton of light and I haven't pushed my grow to that level because…

About an hour ago, I cranked the light from 255 watts to 313 watts. Using a PAR meter, I was "not guessing" about how much light was (is) hitting the colas.

One last thought - I've pasted in the data that I capture/calculate by "sampling" with the Apogee. If the SpotOn has a sample function, you might want to see if this is of any value to you.

256 - wattags
18 - lights on period
# - sequence number (just because I'm a programmer…)
Numbers across the bottom are based only on the PPFD/DLI values where DLI>= 35
Far left and far right columns are the standard deviation of PPFD and DLI, respectively.
The % numbers indicate the % of colas that are <= 35 mols, > 45 mols, or between those values.

For me, it provides insight into how well I'm able to light the canopy and it allows me to see that I've got some "hotspots".

HTH.

I looked and was about to purchase the apogee, but then seen spoton and thought wth , it’s a bit cheaper .

I also bought the stick to make it easy to read in the corners of my 5x5 .

Instant par readings .

Scan an area for and average par reading .

Or you can just leave it behind as it samples every 3 minutes updating every 15 calculatlated on the past 24hrs for the proper dli reading.

I never did a dli in flower but concentrated more on ramping up to get a solid 900 ppfd on my canopy when it’s needed most .

Doesn’t let you download to any app, but has a little stand. Lol

Enjoy the growing , it’s an addiction.

 

[Smokey0418]

all meters are par meters. doesn't matter what you get, that's the only thing they measure. they run an algorithm to give you a lux or ppfd result. but they only ever measure par.


same as ppm probe. they all only measure ec. but they can do the math for you to display ec / 700 scale / or 500 scale.

Yes but all par meters do not measure full spectrum leds.

So if you in the market buy appropriately.

Enjoy.

 

[Delps8]

I looked and was about to purchase the apogee, but then seen spoton and thought wth , it’s a bit cheaper .

I also bought the stick to make it easy to read in the corners of my 5x5 .

Instant par readings .

Scan an area for and average par reading .

Or you can just leave it behind as it samples every 3 minutes updating every 15 calculatlated on the past 24hrs for the proper dli reading.

I never did a dli in flower but concentrated more on ramping up to get a solid 900 ppfd on my canopy when it’s needed most .

Doesn’t let you download to any app, but has a little stand. Lol

Enjoy the growing , it’s an addiction.

No question about the price difference. The Apogee is 75% more and I don't see the value in that.

The wand - good move.

"I never did a dli in flower but concentrated more on ramping up to get a solid 900 ppfd on my canopy when it’s needed most ."

To clarify - you are running 900 µmols? I'd appreciate more info on that. Until today I wouldn't have pushed a grow to that high a level.