Vyserage's First Indoor Soil Grow - 2017

[knighthawktfc]

Don't have any all-purpose watering ones that comes to mind, maybe post over in the problem\pest\id\help forum for help.

 

[vyserage]

I think i've identified the little buggers. I believe them to be springtails as they match the description. When i went to go crush 1, it jumped away like a couple inches high, maybe a bit more (didnt fly, jumped). These are an acceptable bug from what people say as they dont cause massive dmg but im going to order some of this:
Organic Laboratories 100-021 Lab QT Organocide 3-in-1 Garden Spray

and mix it with the appropriate amount of water and completely submerge the grow bag in a bucket for a minute or so. I'll actually test my small clone which has been placed outside for now. Depending on results ill then do the same to plant #2 to get dem bugs haha.

 

[vyserage]

.

 

[vyserage]

9/13/17 Day 31: Transferred plant #1/2/3/4 into the 3 gal grow bags. Watered all plants. Removed clone from group as it has lots of tiny bugs in its soil. when transplanting #2, it also had some bugs i saw in the soil that fell off while transferring. None of the others had the bugs, as best as i could tell anyways. Bugs self identified as springtails. Ordered some insecticide.
9/14/17 Day 32: LST done to all plants.
9/15/17 Day 33: light LST done to a couple plants. The spots/tips seem to still slowly be increasing. Refer to pictures day 33. Am debating trying some nutes to see if it helps in a week or 2. I suppose it couldnt hurt and if it does, i just stop nutes. On the other hand, this could possibly be nute burn with that really rich soil and i just need to leave it be or flush some water through it a couple times to lower the nutes in the soil. Perhaps ill measure the PPM of each plant at next watering and see what the nutes are at. PPM is likely to be high as i just transfered into new soil in the upgraded 3 gal bag from a 1 gal. This all makes it kinda hard to pinpoint.

 

[vyserage]

I have taken 2 steps to help solve (hopefully) the above issues of the spotting. I moved fan to face towards wall and circulate the air rather than directly blowing on the leaves (wind burn i guess u could call it, i saw images of such a thing and it was exactly the issue im having). I also raised the light to 28'. The pesticide has come in and i gave the cloan a good soak. I'm going to check the clone in the morning and see if bugs are still around.

 

[knighthawktfc]

btw I don't see any obvious signs of nute burn on any plant, yes direct fan being too close can cause some weird 'spotting' and edge damage (no biggie though). Nice LST work thus far, everything is coming in all organized.

 

[vyserage]

9/16/17 Day 34: light LST done to ensure all nodes are at an equal heighth. Raised light to 28' from top of tallest plant. This was done to see if the damage my plants are recieving is from too close a light. Video recorded as reference. Changed fan to blow away from plants and not directly on them. Brown spots/tips are the same as that from excessive airflow. Now the leaves just kinda rattle on all plants rather than blow all over.
9/17/17 Day 35: Growth continues.
9/18/17 Day 36: Light training done to plants, Added clone back into tent after it was soaked for a few minutes in pesticide. Before transfer, seems all bugs were killed but the larva white caterpillar looking things survived and were crawling around inside cup. Assuming this means the bugs will eventually come back because of those larva guys. Transferred clone into a 1 gal pot.
Topped plant #5 for the last time, now should end up with 8 shoots.

 

[vyserage]

Watered all plants. PPM is:
#1: 3530
#2 2642
#3 2706
#4 2201
#5 1549 (in 1 gal bag and planet soil)
Clone: 1123 (in 1 gal bag and planet soil)

 

[vyserage]

9/19/17 Day 37: Flushed plant #1 with 2 gallons of water, took it down to 0420's ppm (more than i anticipated since i was shooting for ppm of 1500's). I whipped together a 1 gallon of water with calmag + foxfarms nutrient at half the 'general use' amount. Its water ppm read 1760's. Watered the plant in question and its water runoff now reads 0540's. I imagine it will hold even more next time since the soil can suck it up and hold it whereas right now it was already 100% full of water from the flush. I am hoping to see this plant no longer producing the dry/spots/crusty leaves. If in a week the problem has worsened, i can rule out nute burn and move on to cal or mag deficiency due to locking it out from too much of one or the other (as suggested by my post in weed help).

 

[vyserage]

9/20/17 Day 38: Growth continues. It appears as if the leaf health decline for plant #1 has stopped which is a very good sign that it was indeed nute burn. Going to keep a close eye on the leafs in question and will repost each day.
9/21/17 Day 39: Took new pic's and a video. Seems the plant #1 that was flushed has shown the leaf's are no longer declining which is great news, that means we can say the culprit was definitely nute burn. The only other alternative is that it was calmag overdose causing one or the other to lock out one or the other lol. For now lets go with nute burn and flush plants down to a nice 1200-1500 ppm. This will be done at next watering.

20170921 184339 - YouTube

 

[EastCoastGhost]

Growing up nicely, good job.

 

[vyserage]

Soooo, figured out today while flushing plants that all the pH was from 5.3 to 5.7. Oh and the ppm for the 3 plants flushed today..well this is what the very first readings were vs the final reading where they now stand:

#1 (didnt flush this one, it was flushed last watering, i just watered this one some nutes)
ppm:2017 (hah)
pH: 6.13

#2
ppm: 5972 / 1761
pH: 5.30 / 5.82

#3
ppm: 3575 / 1976
pH: 5.75 / 5.94

#4
ppm: 4212 / 1875
pH: 5.62 / 5.90

#5
ppm: 1855 / 1590
pH: 6.9 / 6.59

Clone (didnt flush, these values are acceptable)
ppm: 1662
pH: 6.67

So you can see the very first water readings were crazy high ppm and waaay too low pH. Compared to plant #1 which was flushed on day 37, its easy to see that the flushing is guaranteed to help get control of my ppm and raise pH. I should have been paying attention to not only the pH of water in but the pH of water out. Im so glad to learn all of this! This means where before i deduced it to nute burn, this now means it could have literally been any sort of nutrient lockout from low pH and maybe nute burn as well from way too high nutes. My next grow is gonna be very closely watched every watering for these things now Its nice knowing my tap water at 7.2-7.5 pH can be watered straight to my plants without pH down, i didnt realize the soil changes the water down much lower so ill just keep watering without pH down until my plants water runoff is a good 6.3, then we'll see what happends and what ill do from there.

on another note, what do u guy's think about water runoff pH, is it even worth taking note of? From what im reading, people say dont bother with pH runoff, as long as your pH water in is correct range you're good. Thoughts?

edit: Some research led me to a thread with a very large debate and this is the answer i chose to follow:
Also I like to add some more insights, in case a lot of people go around and try to change the PH of their soil when it isn't necessary.

First of, no reason to change the soil when runoff water PH is at 5.5 - it's a very good PH level. You only need to be alerted when the runoff water PH is less than 5 or higher than 7.5.

Also if you are using organic fertilizers, the runoff water PH level matters less, because the nutrients are in a more complex form of compounds. The plant must decompose them before the using them during photosynthesis and respiration - therefore the level of charged ions will modified during the process of decomposition (usually to a mild and more plant-friendly level).

Now, have you wondered why we recommend to water at PH of 5.6 to 6.0 for hydroponic growing and at PH of 6.2 to 6.5 for soil? You guess it right, because in a hydroponic environment, the PH level of the water will not change much after watering. The pH of pure water is related to the relative number of hydrogen and hydroxyl ions. If water has a higher proportion of hydrogen ions, it is acidic and has a pH less than 7. If it has a higher number of hydroxyl ions, then it is alkaline and has a pH of greater than 7. But water doesn't naturally exist without other mineral ions being present. In a soil environment, there are many free uncharged elements around, so they will take up the number of hydrogen or hydroxyl ions to form new chemical compounds - and these new compounds may be helpful or harmful to the plant depending on the original chemical compounds.

When then original chemical compounds are simple compounds - usually found in non-organic nutrients like "GH bloom," etc, the PH level of runoff water represent an overall "helpfulness" of the new compounds absorbed by the plant. Therefore a PH level of 5.6 to 6.0 is optimal to the plant.

That being said, PH level does not represent everything. You can have a very harmful environment while the PH level is optimal, while you can also have a very helpful environment while the PH level is very acidic or alkaline. BUT, if you want to take less risk, it's good to keep the PH level at optimal.

so going by that info, its safe to say my pH of runoff is perfectly fine and all i should pay attention to is pH of water in and the ppm of water out. For now ill just see how the flush to lower ppm effects this grow, no need to go all crazy and watch pH of runoff all the time haha.

 

[vyserage]

9/22/17 Day 40: Watered clone and plant #5 (they are in 1 gal bags still so they dry out quicker). Was going to flush but ppm value for clone was:
Clone: 1350
Plant #5: 1162
these values are more than fine for now. Once they get transferred (if) they will have higher value in which case ill flush to get it down to a safer 1500.
9/23/17 Day 41: Light training done, pictures taken.
9/24/17 Day 42: growth continues
9/25/17 Day 43: All plants flushed to acceptable ppm levels due to super high ppm (like 5000 highest on 1, but also 4k and 3k).
9/26/17 Day 44: Growth continues.
9/27/17 Day 45: Pics taken. Growth continues. Doesnt appear to be any continued leaf damage but its still kinda early.

 

[knighthawktfc]

Its nice knowing my tap water at 7.2-7.5 pH can be watered straight to my plants without pH down, i didnt realize the soil changes the water down much lower so ill just keep watering without pH down until my plants water runoff is a good 6.3, then we'll see what happends and what ill do from there.

on another note, what do u guy's think about water runoff pH, is it even worth taking note of? From what im reading, people say dont bother with pH runoff, as long as your pH water in is correct range you're good. Thoughts?

First... I wouldn't do that with your tap. 7.2...maybe...but 7.5 no, use a drop or two of down to get it toward 7 or little below.

I monitor the shit out of my run off, it's the most annoying part of the entire growing process to me, that said like you I was getting low 6's and mid-high 5's the first couple weeks and things seemed ok....until they were clearly not ok anymore and it seemed nutes that liked 6.1 or higher seemed to be getting locked out.

I've read tons on the runoff as well...and while there is no definitive anwser, I came down on the opposite side of where you did, if you're getting consistent runoff in mid to low 5.x range in typical soil with non organic ferts something is usually wrong. Been there recently, and got the matching dolomite lime powder tee-shirt (helps up the ph). It may not be too much of a problem in veg but it will be come flower time - or did in my case. You should be trying to get run off at least in the low 6's and the water you put in (with nutes in it) shouldn't be above 7.1 (even if you compensating a bit for what soil will do to it). In soil below 6.2 you will have cal and phosphorous take up issues; conversely above 7 and you can get mag, copper, iron, and P, lockout.

IDK That's my 2cents, atm which is subject to change, but again I only have 1 grow under my belt but most of it was fighting soil PH issues (input water was always correct), after the first month when things started to dip below low 6's.


All that said, your girls look good, so whatever you doing for now... just keep doing it.
But absolutely pay attention to the water you're putting in and don't add 7.5ph water, down it to at least 7.1, as putting in higher ph water to compensate for too acidic soil only works so far\much. I mean putting in 7.0 to get out 6.3-6.8 is fine, but putting in 7.5 to get out very very low 6's is not something you really want. I would personally, in that case look to start amending the soil a little - something I wish I'd done before planting as it's most effective then, but adding stuff later can be done, just take awhile to start taking effect.

 

[vyserage]

So some lime on top of the soil would help to raise the pH?

 

[knighthawktfc]

So some lime on top of the soil would help to rais
e the pH?

This pure powder version seemed to work best (vs the various other pellet or other crushed types) for top coating.



TLDR: Yes

long read:
You can use the other pellet or semi crushed stuff but that's more for original soil treatment... ie there will be some time release, where as the power is for the most part far quicker acting (though it tends to leach out of the soil a little fast with watering then the larger stuff). General guidance is 2tbsp per 'gallon' pot when originally mixing, or something similar (but not all at once) for after-top coating. Me, I added about 1tbsp - 2tbsp per watering for a while and it slowly brought things up from having input in 6.6-6.8 range and output in like 5.9\6.0 range to input in the 6.6-6.8 range and output in the 6.5-6.8 range. After things got stable I'd let it be for a water cycle or two and then have to apply another 2/3rd - 1tbsp top coat as I think some of it was always getting washed out (you could see it in exit samples eventually).

Things are going good for you so maybe don't change much yet.

But if you do hit problems and want to adjust the soil a little (or a lot) upward it does work - though it's not an 'instant' fix the powder form does seem to 'get to work' over a couple waterings (don't expect first watering after top coat exit samples to be widely different), it's also a good source of calcium and magnesium - so if used you may be able to back off having to add cal-mag entirely or perhaps just not as much. My advice if you do decide to use it would be first watering or two only use say 2tbsp or 3 tbsp, and see what if any effects you get for a watering or two or three before adding another round of about the same or more. Also keep in mind via top coating... the distribution is not a good as originally mixing it into the soil, ie... it'll mostly spread along the routes water takes to the bottom. So you could get some samples from watering one cup being say 6.8 and another being 6.4... and scratch your head. Just the nature of the distribution of where it ended up and and the path that particular water took and how much it may have leached out, though I found it mostly consistent after a couple weeks.

The downside is you can add too much, though the natural ph of the stuff above is about 7.2, so even if you go too much eventually with some watering it'll float back down a bit, ie going overboard can cause you some problems above 7.0, but not the entirely kill your plant type problems unless you ignore it.

 

[vyserage]

Awesome, that sounds exactly like what im gonna need. The leaf damage has increased each day from what i can tell. I think its definitely gotta be a pH problem as my pH is all over the place for the plants as you saw recently. I greatly appreciate all the help you've suggested as my grow continues! I want to fix this leaf damage asap, in fact i was going to start flowering on day 45 but considering the leaf issue which is im sure linked to pH, i wanted to settle this problem before flowering. Seem's ill be starting flower on day 60 at this rate. I'm going to check lowes for the dolomite since i would have to wait a week to order it online. As soon as sunday comes im going to do another watering and check ppm and pH of runoff and ill post results, maybe the pH will continue to go up without dolomite, we'll see! Here are some pics of leaf's from plant #1 and #3

 

[knighthawktfc]

Lowes and THD do carry a similar product in a little bag usually in the garden isles, sorry I forget the name atm, it's usually small pellets or \granules at best... but with a good pepper grinder you can turn the tiny pellets into something close to powder (if you put it through 2-3 times), it not the same, but it's close. I started out like that before finding the more talcum like powder linked in the the last post.

Wish I could tell you what those necro like spots were from in any definitive way, but I don't know. Could be worth a post over in the problem-help forum before you get to far ahead troubleshooting it. That said ph could be a part of the problem.

 

[vyserage]

i ordered a similar bag, 5 pounds for 14 bucks. The one that was linked isnt in stock until the 3rd of october so i went with a different brand thats basically the same thing. Later tomorrow early morning im going to be watering the plants and measureing ppm/pH. I'll actually be feeding adjusted water based on the info from last water so if 1 plant was a runoff of pH at 5.8, ill water it 7.0 water to bring it up further and see how things turn out.

Quick question for anyone, when you flushed your plants due to way high ppm, was there leaf damage continuation afterwards? Its been around 4 days i think since last watering so im unsure of what to expect when flushing plants.

 

[knighthawktfc]

Generally speaking most leaf damage never goes away, what's done is done, if you mean new leaves being effected by the same problem, if you've corrected a problem I think you shouldn't see it spreading to new places after say 24hr after a flush. Existing spots\leaves may continue to be a problem and still continue till they die off (depends a bit on what the problem is from what I've read and little experience).