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- #101
Gee64
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Isn't 420 all about sharing knowledge and wisdom?Babe I could find a Gee spot drunk and with one eye closed!
I can teach you, but I’d have to charge
The Gee Spot - You Finally Found It
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- #102
Gee64
Well-Known Member
I'm seeing a lot of Magnesium deficiencies pop up all over the place lately in soil grows so lets talk about Mag for a bit to understand it better.
Its possible you are actually low on mag but its pretty abundant and more often than not its there but locked out.
So lets assume its there, and PH is in good soil range, 6.2-7 and you still see a deficiency.
Mag is a strong cation, MG++ is an electrolyte with a double positive charge so its very magnetically sticky.
Calcium is Ca++ and also a double positively charged cation.
On the colloidal level, and think of colloids as cafeteria trays full of food, the colloids are magnetically influenced, and adding or subtracting a charge can magnetically attract food, or not be able to attract food, depending if its charge is correct.
Cations are positive ions and are the first "C" in CEC, or Cation Exchange Capacity.
CEC is an exchange.
When a colloid gets loaded properly, with a balanced diet its charge becomes balanced, and the nutrients onboard are barely clinging.
When another cation of the same kind is waiting for a cation to be eaten off the platter, the platter senses the extra positive charge waiting to be loaded so it releases the one on the plate and attracts the one in waiting, hence the "Exchange" part of CEC.
The magnetics pull the second one on and repel the 1st one off.
Now lets talk about Magnesium.
In the absence of proper calcium on the colloid to set the charge (calcium needs to own aproximately 65% of the places on the serving tray to set the base magnetic field correctly to attract the proper ratios of the other cations, thats why in a liquid feeding you always add calcium 1st, except if you are adding silicates, then they go 1st. ) nothing else loads properly.
So if calcium is low, and the overall colloid charge is incorrect, magnesium becomes stickier in calciums absence, and attracts nitrogen and locks onto it, binding it up electromagnetically, and they stick together very well. Its magnesium's 1st choice.
Now back to the serving platter. Your plant wants a magnesium ion, but can't have one off the platter unless there is another in the soil willing to jump onto the platter to release the 1st one to the plant.
If the magnesium ion waiting to enter the platter has a nitrogen molecule stuck on its back because of low calcium, its charge has been effected so the platter no longer recognizes it as magnesium, so to the platter there is no magnesium, therefore the plant can't have the magnesium cation already on the platter. It becomes locked on the platter.
Now you can see that by lowering calcium to allow magnesium to bond to nitrogen you have 3 deficiencies for the price of 1.
Calcium is deficient causing magnesium and nitrogen to become locked out and you are now low on availability of all 3.
Fix the calcium level to neutralize magnesium and it will release the nitrogen, which makes nitrogen now available again, but without nitrogen stuck on magnesiums back the platter now recognizes magnesium again and magnesium exchange resumes as well.
Correct the cause, don't correct the symptoms.
I once heard that correcting the symptoms is like saying a headache is caused by an aspirin deficiency.
Thats why CalMag works so well, its ratioed, but you need to keep using it once you start. It doesn't correct the cause, it bypasses it and corrects the symptoms. Almost like they want to keep selling it to you. Weird hey?
EWC contains lots of calcium and it always moves down so if your pots don't contain live earthworms to cycle your calcium, a constant light topdressing of ewc will do it.
For you sippers, the ewc must be top watered in to move down. Only slightly, just to fully wet it is needed, but don't let it dry for a few days, mist it until its in.
Don't put it on thick. Repeated 1/4 inch feedings will work way faster than 1 inch layers clogging the O2 flow at the soils surface.
Calcium is very strong so never overdo it. If you are thinking a calcium rich soil drench never go over 50 ppm and do it in set intervals about 10 days apart minimum, and watch.
If you see nitrogen toxicity, aka The Claw, you are winning. Its that 1st initial rush of nitrogen becoming available and showing as an excess. Nitro moves quick, it will correct itself in a few days.
Now magnesium is recognized again by the platters and the exchange resumes.
Its a bit more complicated than that as temp and ph factor in, but if the platters are locked up, ph and temp are moot points.
All you need to know is the uncomplicated part, nature handles the complicated pieces very well.
Correct the cause and the headache goes away without aspirin.
I hope that makes sense.
Its possible you are actually low on mag but its pretty abundant and more often than not its there but locked out.
So lets assume its there, and PH is in good soil range, 6.2-7 and you still see a deficiency.
Mag is a strong cation, MG++ is an electrolyte with a double positive charge so its very magnetically sticky.
Calcium is Ca++ and also a double positively charged cation.
On the colloidal level, and think of colloids as cafeteria trays full of food, the colloids are magnetically influenced, and adding or subtracting a charge can magnetically attract food, or not be able to attract food, depending if its charge is correct.
Cations are positive ions and are the first "C" in CEC, or Cation Exchange Capacity.
CEC is an exchange.
When a colloid gets loaded properly, with a balanced diet its charge becomes balanced, and the nutrients onboard are barely clinging.
When another cation of the same kind is waiting for a cation to be eaten off the platter, the platter senses the extra positive charge waiting to be loaded so it releases the one on the plate and attracts the one in waiting, hence the "Exchange" part of CEC.
The magnetics pull the second one on and repel the 1st one off.
Now lets talk about Magnesium.
In the absence of proper calcium on the colloid to set the charge (calcium needs to own aproximately 65% of the places on the serving tray to set the base magnetic field correctly to attract the proper ratios of the other cations, thats why in a liquid feeding you always add calcium 1st, except if you are adding silicates, then they go 1st. ) nothing else loads properly.
So if calcium is low, and the overall colloid charge is incorrect, magnesium becomes stickier in calciums absence, and attracts nitrogen and locks onto it, binding it up electromagnetically, and they stick together very well. Its magnesium's 1st choice.
Now back to the serving platter. Your plant wants a magnesium ion, but can't have one off the platter unless there is another in the soil willing to jump onto the platter to release the 1st one to the plant.
If the magnesium ion waiting to enter the platter has a nitrogen molecule stuck on its back because of low calcium, its charge has been effected so the platter no longer recognizes it as magnesium, so to the platter there is no magnesium, therefore the plant can't have the magnesium cation already on the platter. It becomes locked on the platter.
Now you can see that by lowering calcium to allow magnesium to bond to nitrogen you have 3 deficiencies for the price of 1.
Calcium is deficient causing magnesium and nitrogen to become locked out and you are now low on availability of all 3.
Fix the calcium level to neutralize magnesium and it will release the nitrogen, which makes nitrogen now available again, but without nitrogen stuck on magnesiums back the platter now recognizes magnesium again and magnesium exchange resumes as well.
Correct the cause, don't correct the symptoms.
I once heard that correcting the symptoms is like saying a headache is caused by an aspirin deficiency.
Thats why CalMag works so well, its ratioed, but you need to keep using it once you start. It doesn't correct the cause, it bypasses it and corrects the symptoms. Almost like they want to keep selling it to you. Weird hey?
EWC contains lots of calcium and it always moves down so if your pots don't contain live earthworms to cycle your calcium, a constant light topdressing of ewc will do it.
For you sippers, the ewc must be top watered in to move down. Only slightly, just to fully wet it is needed, but don't let it dry for a few days, mist it until its in.
Don't put it on thick. Repeated 1/4 inch feedings will work way faster than 1 inch layers clogging the O2 flow at the soils surface.
Calcium is very strong so never overdo it. If you are thinking a calcium rich soil drench never go over 50 ppm and do it in set intervals about 10 days apart minimum, and watch.
If you see nitrogen toxicity, aka The Claw, you are winning. Its that 1st initial rush of nitrogen becoming available and showing as an excess. Nitro moves quick, it will correct itself in a few days.
Now magnesium is recognized again by the platters and the exchange resumes.
Its a bit more complicated than that as temp and ph factor in, but if the platters are locked up, ph and temp are moot points.
All you need to know is the uncomplicated part, nature handles the complicated pieces very well.
Correct the cause and the headache goes away without aspirin.
I hope that makes sense.
Hi GEE, thanks, I'm going to do a slurry test on the rest of my mixed up soil to see its PH. I have a home soil test kit. Do you think that will help diagnosing this one? I haven't used it. I'm thinking you're right. The more mag I put into the soil the worse it gets. I have about 50 gallons all mixed up I'd like to fix before the next grow if I can. If calcium can do it I'll be a happy man! Today's out but tomorrow I'm thinking I'd like to move on testing.
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- #104
Gee64
Well-Known Member
When I uppotted from solo to a 10gal and set it on a swicky pad with a reservoir full of 50ppm dolomite water you can see where the nitrogen rush occurred but quickly corrected itself in the growth above it, permanently etching it into the plants timeline.
greenjeans
Well-Known Member
Maybe...but my head hurts!!!!
Gidorah
Well-Known Member
Dang Gee, so much knowledge for a rookie grower like myself to absorb. I think I need a hit of calcium to free up some brain cells. Mind if I follow along? Not much to contribute except for some self depreciation once in a while but damn, so much to learn from everyone. I'm still stuck on "live cure", gotta try that....
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- #107
Gee64
Well-Known Member
Check this out. Earthworm castings around the perimeter of a solo cup full of mixed lettuces.
Its a swick cup so I have to spray it lightly to wash it back in.
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- #108
Gee64
Well-Known Member
Hey Gildorah
Welcome! Please do hang out. Are you growing anything at the moment?
Gidorah
Well-Known Member
Thanks for having me. Yes, got a GMO Cookies in a 5 gal SIP. I just finished a 11 day drought bit I think I was a little premature (story of my life) because it's not close to being done. In the meantime, I started a couple Chiquita Bananas prematurely (hmm I see a pattern) that are on their second node but I need the cookies to stop screwing around so that I can throw em in the tent.Hey Gildorah
Thanks Gee, for that wonderfully informative post on Magnesium, it's like the windows being cleaned in front of me from where I'm standing!
With regard to that, my own 3 plants that have been vegging for 4 months, they are growing in what I would term living organic soil, pea straw mulch on top, worms in the mix etc. I never pH or slurry test. I amend the soil between grows, with occasional light top dressings and worm leachate in their everyday waterings. I think so far the soil has been used for about 5 grows or so, and as nature doesn't throw out her soil I am not intending to either. To keep the approach simple, I just think of keeping the soil aerated and keeping the worms happy. So far it seems to be working nicely. My plants all seem to be looking a healthy shade of green, but after 4 months each plant has had, half a dozen yellowing fan leaves that have been situated within the plant closer to the main stem but at different parts of the column. So far the plants have lost very little leaves over 4 months, if anything I would describe them as quite bushy green.
With what you are pointing out (and thanks very much for doing so), I realise that I should be aware of the Calcium/Magnesium ratio that is more appropriate for releasing the Mg and N. Up to now I hadn't been thinking in terms of ratios. What form of Calcium would be ideal to give on it's own so to speak? Could something as simple as a Tbsp or two of ground egg shells or oyster shells assist?
With regard to that, my own 3 plants that have been vegging for 4 months, they are growing in what I would term living organic soil, pea straw mulch on top, worms in the mix etc. I never pH or slurry test. I amend the soil between grows, with occasional light top dressings and worm leachate in their everyday waterings. I think so far the soil has been used for about 5 grows or so, and as nature doesn't throw out her soil I am not intending to either. To keep the approach simple, I just think of keeping the soil aerated and keeping the worms happy. So far it seems to be working nicely. My plants all seem to be looking a healthy shade of green, but after 4 months each plant has had, half a dozen yellowing fan leaves that have been situated within the plant closer to the main stem but at different parts of the column. So far the plants have lost very little leaves over 4 months, if anything I would describe them as quite bushy green.
With what you are pointing out (and thanks very much for doing so), I realise that I should be aware of the Calcium/Magnesium ratio that is more appropriate for releasing the Mg and N. Up to now I hadn't been thinking in terms of ratios. What form of Calcium would be ideal to give on it's own so to speak? Could something as simple as a Tbsp or two of ground egg shells or oyster shells assist?
Too right!
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- #111
Gee64
Well-Known Member
I don't drought all the time as I like my weed not too strong, but it definitely works. I wait until the trichomes tell me its only a couple days til harvest then I start the droughting. It seems to me that wherever the trichome color is at the start of droughting is where it is at finish so I drought right into harvest myself, just not very often. Usually only when I really don't feel like trimming so I put it off for 10 days or so and drought
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- #112
Gee64
Well-Known Member
Ok first things first. Calcium experiments can go horribly wrong so, if your soil is performing well then whatever you are doing is working well.Thanks Gee, for that wonderfully informative post on Magnesium, it's like the windows being cleaned in front of me from where I'm standing!
With regard to that, my own 3 plants that have been vegging for 4 months, they are growing in what I would term living organic soil, pea straw mulch on top, worms in the mix etc. I never pH or slurry test. I amend the soil between grows, with occasional light top dressings and worm leachate in their everyday waterings. I think so far the soil has been used for about 5 grows or so, and as nature doesn't throw out her soil I am not intending to either. To keep the approach simple, I just think of keeping the soil aerated and keeping the worms happy. So far it seems to be working nicely. My plants all seem to be looking a healthy shade of green, but after 4 months each plant has had, half a dozen yellowing fan leaves that have been situated within the plant closer to the main stem but at different parts of the column. So far the plants have lost very little leaves over 4 months, if anything I would describe them as quite bushy green.
With what you are pointing out (and thanks very much for doing so), I realise that I should be aware of the Calcium/Magnesium ratio that is more appropriate for releasing the Mg and N. Up to now I hadn't been thinking in terms of ratios. What form of Calcium would be ideal to give on it's own so to speak? Could something as simple as a Tbsp or two of ground egg shells or oyster shells assist?
Too right!
If you send out too strong of a signal by jacking up calcium, soil turns to dust because magnesium causes clumping, and leaches out quickly.
I'm not personally a user of egg shells but I'm sure they work.
I like dolomite lime and oyster flour with some gypsum too, and then let the worms keep it rototating and I constantly topdress EWC.
In my swicky pad, dolomite water wicks up so in your SIP I'm sure it would too but I don't know how high.
Slow and constant, low dose, works best for calcium. Increasing frequency instead of dosage size is better to get more in the soil.
Thanks, I should have mentioned that I amend with gypsum between grows too, of which I thought the Sulphur component would be useful too.
Eggshells will take a loooong time to breakdown, although I suppose if you ground them into a powder that would help. Same with Oyster shells.
I had the N issue described by Gee and I've been misting the soil/mulch surface daily with my WCA - Water Soluble Calcium if you'd want to try your hand at plant alchemy. The WCA is a more immediate fix as it's instantly plant available vs the ground shells that first need to be broken down by microbes first.
It seemed to have a rather quick impact on my plant.
Thanks for the clip, that is very interesting. I do have a lot egg shell 'flour' that I blended very fine, presumably that would work a little quicker whether on the soil as it is, or used for making the WCA.
However, I am thinking of perhaps putting 1 tbsp of Gypsum over the mulch layer and top watering it in or letting the rain do it. What do you think re a small topdressing of Gypsum?
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- #116
Gee64
Well-Known Member
Gypsum works great too but does contain sulphur so once or twice no problem however your plant and soil use alot more magnesium than sulphur so long term dolomite lime is better but for a quick fix with a stable ph gypsum works really well to boost calcium.
I wouldnt go over 50ppm tho, even 40ppm, it can get hot quick, electrically speaking, and misting it on works well if your soil is crusty up top.
Mist it on, mist on pure water, mist calcium, pure water, like that to only add a bit of calcium water but equal amounts of RO water to spread it out better, and a little bit goes a longer way.
You don't want to fix it in one dose its too much, you have to ramp it up. It doesn't take long. In veg you have time to get it dialed.
I really like and hope Azi's calcium works. I will make it from oyster flour and have a batch on hand all the time.
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- #117
Gee64
Well-Known Member
Actually I take that back...I really hope ALL Azi's potions work extremely well
It's straight up, legit, sorcery!Actually I take that back...I really hope ALL Azi's potions work extremely well
Do mean you would make the WCA from oyster flour, or just use oyster flour on it's own as a top dress? If using oyster flour in WCA would you still fry/bake it, I wasn't quite sure of the reason for that?
The heating is to remove any organic matter that might spoil the mix in storage. Egg shells have a thin membrane that will rot over time if it's not removed.