The Gee Spot - You Finally Found It

[Gee64]

Nah, no time like the present. I get regular issues about 3 weeks after pistils so there's something in my set-up that needs improvement so I'm happy to experiment with something new.

Ok cool

Like Einstein said, "The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results." Or some such thing. I'm ready for some new/different results.

It's not insanity if you are tinkering and tweaking, only if you do nothing and expect the different result, but we are all insane, myself included, so really... what do I know...

And give me your thoughts on the benefits of top watering vs. my bottom watering SIP. I assume it's got something to do with helping the calcium work its way down through the medium, but want you to flesh it out a bit if you would.

One of the advantages we tout in the bottom watering SIP is the moisture gradient that is constantly maintained in the pot so that the plant has a consistent access to moisture at whatever level it wants.

So, top watering and letting it dry a bit will be a change but it's the end results we're after so if they can be improved with a slightly different approach, bring it!

It's definitely to address calcium. Calcium isn't a "heavy metal" as in a toxic heavy metal, but it's a metal and it's heavy.

So it sinks in water faster than anything else in your pot. The end result is the top of your pot gets calcium deficient. So to counter that you add EWC, but that EWC needs to get down. A little spritz of water will moisten the soil but not enough.

You can't fight or stop calcium from going down so you need to cater to it. Also, wet soil is air negative.

The space between the soil particles can hold water or air. What you want is those spaces filled with air, but enough dampness that the walls are covered in condensation. You don't want the water knee deep, just steamy. Healthy soil is 25%.

So in a nutshell I suspect your soil is calcium deficient, as in it isn't cycling properly, and oxygen deprived from excess moisture.

Every time you top water 2 things occur, other than the obvious which is giving the plant a drink.

Water is heavy so nutrients and minerals get washed down.

The other is that as the weight of the water moves down, it pulls air in behind it. If it didn't it wouldn't flow down, suction would hold it up.

This is all what I saw when I tried swicking. The top of the pot was bone dry and a calcium deficiency and starvation due to oxygen deficiencies in the lower wet roots occurred because any and all food must be attached to an oxygen molecule in order for aerobic microbes to recognize it as food.

When I switched my Swick to top watering all issues disappeared in 10 days. The plants immediately flourished.

So why do some sippers win and some lose is the question.

Take the synthetic ones out of the equation. Synthetics are hydroponic. Calcium isn't needed as a soil conditioner, only as a nutrient. Hydroponic roots take it in from the bottom, not feeder roots from the top.

So how many in LOS reach the finish line without detriment is the question that applies here. I've only seen 1. That's Stone. I'm sure there are more, I just have't encountered them yet. (@Thirvnrob comes to mind, I think calmag and possibly top watering saved him.)

So Stones SIP shape combined with his soil areation product (perlite I think) are working in harmony, not flux, and he adds calmag to the reservoir. He uses Rev's mix so the soil is the horsepower, not things added afterwards. Topdressings and such are maintainers, not base suppliers.

Does he top water? Does he let the Sip go dry? @StoneOtter please weigh in.

Lets start there and then build off of that.

 

[Azimuth]

OK, FINE! I'll try it your way.


JK. I'm actually excited to try this approach. I think I am so close with the rest of the package, so if changing my watering approach can help get brix up, that might just be the final major piece to the puzzle. From there it will just be tweaking various elements.

So you suggested 10-14 days to see brix go up if my watering practices are indeed the issue. Tell me about the 'P' Dump trucks and their loop. What type of cycle are we talking; minutes, days, weeks?

I'm thinking probably days since we are talking garden time here and dozens of cycles a day seem unlikely, though I saw a program a while back where they were measuring trees (giant redwoods) and their symbiosis with mycelium.

They tried an experiment to see how long it would take for a red dye injected at the roots to show up at the top of the tree and it was some unbelievably short period of time, like a couple of minutes or something, much less than one would guess sap moved.

I'm thinking I'll measure brix levels weekly if you think that's a reasonable space between readings but have no idea as to how fast I could expect to see changes.

 

[Keffka]

OK, FINE! I'll try it your way.


JK. I'm actually excited to try this approach. I think I am so close with the rest of the package, so if changing my watering approach can help get brix up, that might just be the final major piece to the puzzle. From there it will just be tweaking various elelments.

So you suggested 10-14 says to see brix go up if my watering practices are indeed the issue. Tell me about the 'P' Dump trucks and their loop. What type of cycle are we talking; minutes, days, weeks?

I'm thinking probably days since we are talking garden time here and dozens of cycles a day seem unlikely, though I saw a program a while back where they were measuring trees (giant redwoods) and their symbiosis with mycelium.

They tried an experiment to see how long it would take for a red dye injected at the roots to show up at the top of the tree and it was some unbelievably short period of time, like a couple of minutes or something, much less than one would guess sap moved.

I'm thinking I'll measure brix levels weekly if you think that's a reasonable space between readings but have no idea as to how fast I could expect to see changes.

YES!!

@Gee64 and I have been waiting for you to start top watering but wanted you to get there on your own path. Hopefully @StoneOtter catches this convo

 

[Azimuth]

YES!!

@Gee64 and I have been waiting for you to start top watering but wanted you to get there on your own path. Hopefully @StoneOtter catches this convo

You guys are talking behind my back??!?!

 

[Keffka]

You guys are talking behind my back??!?!

Sure are!

You’ve been so close to it so many times but you’re too much like I am and needed to figure it out in your own way. We know how much you love the camera, so we also secretly nominated you to be the face and voice of our group. Congratulations!

 

[StoneOtter]

Ok cool

It's not insanity if you are tinkering and tweaking, only if you do nothing and expect the different result, but we are all insane, myself included, so really... what do I know...

It's definitely to address calcium. Calcium isn't a "heavy metal" as in a toxic heavy metal, but it's a metal and it's heavy.

So it sinks in water faster than anything else in your pot. The end result is the top of your pot gets calcium deficient. So to counter that you add EWC, but that EWC needs to get down. A little spritz of water will moisten the soil but not enough.

You can't fight or stop calcium from going down so you need to cater to it. Also, wet soil is air negative.

The space between the soil particles can hold water or air. What you want is those spaces filled with air, but enough dampness that the walls are covered in condensation. You don't want the water knee deep, just steamy. Healthy soil is 25%.

So in a nutshell I suspect your soil is calcium deficient, as in it isn't cycling properly, and oxygen deprived from excess moisture.

Every time you top water 2 things occur, other than the obvious which is giving the plant a drink.

Water is heavy so nutrients and minerals get washed down.

The other is that as the weight of the water moves down, it pulls air in behind it. If it didn't it wouldn't flow down, suction would hold it up.

This is all what I saw when I tried swicking. The top of the pot was bone dry and a calcium deficiency and starvation due to oxygen deficiencies in the lower wet roots occurred because any and all food must be attached to an oxygen molecule in order for aerobic microbes to recognize it as food.

When I switched my Swick to top watering all issues disappeared in 10 days. The plants immediately flourished.

So why do some sippers win and some lose is the question.

Take the synthetic ones out of the equation. Synthetics are hydroponic. Calcium isn't needed as a soil conditioner, only as a nutrient. Hydroponic roots take it in from the bottom, not feeder roots from the top.

So how many in LOS reach the finish line without detriment is the question that applies here. I've only seen 1. That's Stone. I'm sure there are more, I just have't encountered them yet. (@Thirvnrob comes to mind, I think calmag and possibly top watering saved him.)

So Stones SIP shape combined with his soil areation product (perlite I think) are working in harmony, not flux, and he adds calmag to the reservoir. He uses Rev's mix so the soil is the horsepower, not things added afterwards. Topdressings and such are maintainers, not base suppliers.

Does he top water? Does he let the Sip go dry? @StoneOtter please weigh in.

Lets start there and then build off of that.

I only add 4ml of cal/mag daily and that's it this grow. I have added a shot of microbes to the rez a couple of times in the last 2 tries. I'm seeing this grow so healthy I don't want to change anything. I did go for the first week or so top watering to establish some upper roots, then I covered the tops and have only watered ro in the rez since.

I may try a microbe mix from Build a soil that supposedly makes P easier to uptake but I think my soil has turned into flowering soil by the way they look after flip. They just firm and green right up as they stretch! We'll see.

Perlite and vermiculite were the two I used to start and I haven't replenished over the years! I need to! Rev'e new amend mix will loosen it up I think by the looks of it. 2 to 4 gallons of perlite each amend! That's a big change from no perlite to that!

 

[Keffka]

For the silent observers wondering what we’re dancing around, here’s a little tip that should spur thought

Calcium doesn’t move upwards on its own. It is heavy and always sinking to the center of the planet. The only way it moves up is if a plant pulls it up in its water. This is why when soil is compacted or lacking in calcium dandelions grow. Their long, strong tap roots reach way deep into the earth and pull calcium back to the surface so it can then sink back down.

Now take that information and apply it to your containers. If calcium is always sinking, and cannabis is eating as much of it as it can but you’re not replacing it up top, what do you think will happen? Big buds want more than what’s settled at the bottom.

That’s just the calcium element itself, I haven’t opened up the top watering benefits yet.

 

[Gee64]

OK, FINE! I'll try it your way.


JK. I'm actually excited to try this approach. I think I am so close with the rest of the package, so if changing my watering approach can help get brix up, that might just be the final major piece to the puzzle. From there it will just be tweaking various elements.

We need to ensure both O2 and calcium are cycling correctly 1st, so for better or worse we need to fix it, or eliminate it as a detriment.

So you suggested 10-14 days to see brix go up if my watering practices are indeed the issue. Tell me about the 'P' Dump trucks and their loop. What type of cycle are we talking; minutes, days, weeks?

Almost instantly, but brix is photosynthesis which is powered by leaves and you use small plants, so every leaf plucked to check brix lowers photosynthesis. So I would wait at least a week to check, unless you have some leaves you were going to defol anyways. If you can afford the leaves, pluck one every day.

P is a food, but really it's a carrier of food. It brings nutes in on it's back and brings sugars back down to the microbes. It's hard to move it thru the soilvso where the exudates put it, it stays for reload, but it's extremely mobile in the plant.

If you are already good on P cycling no noted difference will be seen as you have enough dump trucks. If your dump truck fleet is low you will forever be adding more. P is something you need to get ahead on early, like day 1 early. Have I ever mentioned the benefits of used flower soil?

I'm thinking probably days since we are talking garden time here and dozens of cycles a day seem unlikely, though I saw a program a while back where they were measuring trees (giant redwoods) and their symbiosis with mycelium.

They tried an experiment to see how long it would take for a red dye injected at the roots to show up at the top of the tree and it was some unbelievably short period of time, like a couple of minutes or something, much less than one would guess sap moved.

It is quick, but it has to move in, get photosynthesized, and move back out, so it's a process and in the 1st few laps it needs to make the microbes poop more to have more nutrients to bring in, so it snowballs. 1 shot of molasses in the soil is a good jump start to make poop and robust microbes.

I'm thinking I'll measure brix levels weekly if you think that's a reasonable space between readings but have no idea as to how fast I could expect to see changes.

Weekly is perfect. Check the weather 1st. Low pressures and storms make plants relocate sugars to the roots, so brix up top drops. High pressure ridges give true readings.

 

[Gee64]

You guys are talking behind my back??!?!

Stones ahead of the curve. He's got his SIP humming beautifulky

 

[Gee64]

Sure are!

You’ve been so close to it so many times but you’re too much like I am and needed to figure it out in your own way. We know how much you love the camera, so we also secretly nominated you to be the face and voice of our group. Congratulations!

We need a "Hell Yeah" emoji

 

[Keffka]

As with literally everything else growing related, I believe the best SIP results will be found with a combination of SIPping and top watering. If you SIPpers incorporated weekly or bi weekly top waterings Im fairly confident your minds would be blown. Then eventually we can get you back to top watering with the masters

 

[Azimuth]

We need to ensure both O2 and calcium are cycling correctly 1st, so for better or worse we need to fix it, or eliminate it as a detriment.

Well, I'd guess your swicking experience is a close parallel so I think odds are pretty good its an issue for me. Whether or not it's the  main issue will be seen and hopefully shortly.

 

[Azimuth]

As with literally everything else growing related, I believe the best SIP results will be found with a combination of SIPping and top watering. If you SIPpers incorporated weekly or bi weekly top waterings Im fairly confident your minds would be blown. Then eventually we can get you back to top watering with the masters

I'm not opposed to using the SIP platform in a bit of a different way. I think the air chamber down low is an important feature so I'll continue to use them but if I can slightly change the watering practices in exchange for a marked improvement in results, then great.

And, it may be directly related to my smaller/shorter pots. I haven't looked to see how high the perched water table is in my mix but that might be an interesting data point.

 

[Gee64]

I'm not opposed to using the SIP platform in a bit of a different way. I think the air chamber down low is an important feature so I'll continue to use them but if I can slightly change the watering practices in exchange for a marked improvement in results, then great.

And, it may be directly related to my smaller/shorter pots. I haven't looked to see how high the perched water table is in my mix but that might be an interesting data point.

I think the size and shape of the Sip would play a huge part. What size/shape is best I have no idea. I just want Azi to experience some high brix, then backward engineer that into a SIP.

No doubt it can be done predictably, we just need to put our heads together to figure it out.

 

[Azimuth]

I do. Let me check.

Edit: mine is pegged. But it's a SIP so expected to be high. But, also shorter buckets than the standard SIP so higher perched water table.

Day two and the water meter reading is 8, down from 10+, though I'm not confident in yesterday's number since I took a quick reading and then I noticed today that the meter reading spiked upon insert and then retreated back down over several minutes.

I'll try it again tomorrow.

 

[Gee64]

Day two and water meter reading is 8, down from 10+, though I'm not confident in yesterday's number since I took a quick reading and then I noticed today that the meter reading spiked upon insert and then retreated back down. I gave it a few minutes to settle as it slowly dropped down.

I'll try it again tomorrow.

So on the wet side for sure. Compared to what you are used to, is this 8 normal, wetter, or drier than normal?

 

[Azimuth]

So on the wet side for sure. Compared to what you are used to, is this 8 normal, wetter, or drier than normal?

I'd say drier than normal as I always put water in a dry reservoir so the normal would probably be the 10+.

I measured all the other plants and my next pot up and all were consistently 9+ and haven't had added water in a couple of days.

 

[Gee64]

I'd say drier than normal as I always put water in a dry reservoir so the normal would probably be the 10+.

I measured all the other plants and my next pot up and all were consistently 9+ and haven't had added water in a couple of days.

Ok you are really wet. I hit that moist after a good hand watering but you want it in the green zone for the most part. 4.5-7 and 5-6 is perfect. Watch them for wilting initially, but I suspect you will see explosive growth instead. Exactly how many days are they into either veg or flower?

 

[Gee64]

Azi if this goes outside your comfort zone just dry out the one you will test on. Have some fun, test the ugliest one. A runt if you have one.

 

[Azimuth]

Exactly how many days are they into either veg or flower?

Day 69, flipping tomorrow. Not sure what I'll do if it's a male as I suspect. I may keep it going until a replacement is large enough to flip and see if I can get pollen out of it and make a round of seeds.

Azi if this goes outside your comfort zone just dry out the one you will test on. Have some fun, test the ugliest one. A runt if you have one.

No, as I said before I have consistent issues at a predictable point in flower and totally understand your point on air vs water spots in the soil. I'm not really all that animated about it if it goes sideways since I don't need all that I produce anyway and have plenty of reserves.

Plus, I like to experiment, so this is right up my alley. If it didn't make sense to me I'd push back and need better Intel but I'm comfortable enough from what I understand so far to give it a go.

I drought my plants at the end anyway so I'm used to withholding water as necessary.