Err... I wasn't stating you were wrong, lol - I was postulating a (possible) reason why that might be the case. I apologize if my text was unclear in that regard (or in any regard, for that matter).
The Candlelight Club: Support Group For Those Running 400W & Less
- Thread starter TheFertilizer
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Err... I wasn't stating you were wrong, lol - I was postulating a (possible) reason why that might be the case. I apologize if my text was unclear in that regard (or in any regard, for that matter).
- Thread starter
- #62
TheFertilizer
Well-Known Member
There's no law that says you cannot mix your lighting to match your circumstances. If running "A" means you have to add supplemental heat (or more of it), but running "A" plus "B" or just B means you can do without extra heating... then it begins to make sense economically to go with the latter strategy.
This is not going to hold true with every ceramic metal halide bulb, because a lot of them are, like many "regular" metal halide bulbs, intended for "people spaces" - such as retail stores - and in such cases, it becomes a good idea to block the bulb's UV output. But with CMH bulbs like the Eye Hortilux 315-watt CMH, the manufacturer intends the bulb to be used exclusively for growing plants and, therefore, the bulb is unjacketed... in other words, it is made in such a way that the bulb's UV output isn't blocked. And MH bulbs in general produce a fair bit more UV than HPS bulbs do. That might have something to do with what you have observed.
By the way, what ballast are you using to run your 430-watt HPS bulb? I used to use those (wattage) bulbs back in the '90s with core & coil (aka "magnetic") ballasts, but have not done so since. I loved them; the bulbs I used were the type with the extra blue element(?) that fired first, then the traditional HPS glow came on shortly afterwards as the ballasts... did whatever they do, lol. Best bulb in the 400-watt class I ever used in terms of short internodal distance and yield. Those ballasts have long since gone on to other people, sadly, but I do have one 400-watt Lumatek electronic ballast that I've thought about trying to get a 430-watt HPS bulb for. It has a "super lumen" switch which causes the ballast to use 430 watts, 450 watts, something like that. I assume it'd be all right with such bulbs, but that is just a guess. On the other hand, if I remember correctly, the parts list for my old ballast model had different part numbers than the same brand's 400-watt ones. Of course, that doesn't necessarily mean anything; General Motors has been known to sell the exact same (type of) part at Chevrolet and Cadillac dealerships - under two different part numbers - with the Cadillac dealership charging 50% to 300% more than the Chevrolet dealership charged. So who knows? Not I, certainly.
Rambling (as per usual). . . .
Yeah the CMH bulbs are known to have a very high amount of UV spectrum, especially the 4200K ones.
That sounds like a great deal on the Sun system ones! I've only seem them going for 400-500. I do love Growers House, they have a lot of good testing and reviews on products as well, they have a really good comparison of all the CMH lamps available. I chose the Phillips 3100K AgroBrite because it had the best intensity, but a lot of people say the 4200K spectrum is wider and gives them better terpene development.
I've been really enjoying the CMH this round. I run mine in an air cooled hood, so I think a lot of the UV spectrum gets filtered out by that. I've heard Sun Systems come with a little slip of glass to go over the lamp to filter the UV too. Otherwise you don't really want to be around these lights without eye protection from what I've read.
What amazes me is how close to it my plants have been chilling at lately. This strain has some very heavy tropical sativa influences I believe...
Back later. I qualify for this club. Chat later
Cheers
Cheers
Tony Urban
Well-Known Member
Yeah I am on the line for using low light. Just over the line (mark it zero!).
Good idea on the thread topic though, lots of low light users
Good idea on the thread topic though, lots of low light users
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- #65
TheFertilizer
Well-Known Member
Yeah right now I'm running a little bit above the limit I set for this too, I've got a 315 W CMH and a 200 W T5 going. I had been running the T5 in a veg tent adjacent to this one, but decided to throw everything I had at the flowering girls this time to see if it made much of a difference.
So far I have really liked the 315 W, but I'm not sure that it really replaces a good 400 W HPS like a lot of people say. I guess I'd only really be able to tell doing a real dialed-in side-by-side, but I think one thing to consider about the CMH is that all the testing shows it neck-and-neck with Hortilux lamps that sell for about the same cost as the CMH lamp, but aren't rated to last for nearly as long. With as often as it's recommended to replace HPS bulbs, I wonder if the performance margin is as tight if using the more economically priced range. It might mean a cost of ownership factor being less for CMH for overall performance.
Tony Urban
Well-Known Member
I would have gone with the CMH if it weren’t for the slight increase to fire hazard potential and heat generation.
Low light is a great way to go. People don’t need to try and copy those massive yields grown by HPS. People just need a moderate amount of decent weed, which they get from small personal grows that have the basic needs.
It can be intimidating to see these massive colas on the forum. But my humble home grown is pretty potent for being grown under LEDs with no bottled nutrients.
Low light is a great way to go. People don’t need to try and copy those massive yields grown by HPS. People just need a moderate amount of decent weed, which they get from small personal grows that have the basic needs.
It can be intimidating to see these massive colas on the forum. But my humble home grown is pretty potent for being grown under LEDs with no bottled nutrients.
- Thread starter
- #67
TheFertilizer
Well-Known Member
I thought CMH was supposed to run cooler than HPS? Well, I haven't had that experience personally but most of the people I see saying that have replaced a 600 W HPS with a 315 W CMH, so you'd figure half the wattage would automatically mean a huge difference in temperature that didn't have a whole lot to do with light spectrum.
Yeah I always tend to grow very potent bud even with very low light levels, but I'm not really sure if potency is really determined by growing conditions or just by the genetic makeup of the plant itself. I think most of the things growers do tends to change the terpene profiles of the weed which has a big effect, but I have personally never grown weed that hasn't come out very potent, but it's always because I select very potent parents. I mean for example, I've come across a lot of bag seed, and every time I have grown one from a really potent parent, it makes a very potent offspring; if it was from a not so potent parent, the offspring wasn't so potent either. But say I took an offspring from that potent plant and just all out abused it, it still makes very potent weed, just less of it.
I'm starting to ramble a little, but sometimes I always feel like really large plants lose trichome density in those monster colas. The same strain if grown into smaller nugs seems to have a much greater concentration of trichomes per small nug, like they try to pack it all into a smaller space. But maybe it just looks that way while growing them?
Tony Urban
Well-Known Member
I have pondered the trichome/bud density thing too. I liken it to trees.
Tree density in Canada make for excellent lumber products. The cold weather makes for short growth spurts, shown by thin growth rings, but this in turn makes for denser wood compared to similar species grown in warmer weather. That’s the short version.
So I wonder if lower temperatures and tighter growth may actually be a good thing in cannabis, whereas we can get more trichomes per square inch of bud. But then again these thoughts comes to me when I’m super baked lol.
Edit: my heat concern was with HPS, the CMH was warmer than the LED and since I live in a townhouse complex, I wanted to limit the potential for fire hazards. So, no hydro, no HPS, and limited electrical shenanigans
Tree density in Canada make for excellent lumber products. The cold weather makes for short growth spurts, shown by thin growth rings, but this in turn makes for denser wood compared to similar species grown in warmer weather. That’s the short version.
So I wonder if lower temperatures and tighter growth may actually be a good thing in cannabis, whereas we can get more trichomes per square inch of bud. But then again these thoughts comes to me when I’m super baked lol.
Edit: my heat concern was with HPS, the CMH was warmer than the LED and since I live in a townhouse complex, I wanted to limit the potential for fire hazards. So, no hydro, no HPS, and limited electrical shenanigans
nobodyhere
Well-Known Member
The plant on the left is 50" tall (at highest point after supercropping 6 nodes so far), 100+ days old and was vegged under a 100w led cob running less than 100w for most of the time.
I assume this still applies:
But I have read that more people seem to run the 315-watt CMH setups with the ballasts attached - in other words, right there in the grow room - and in open fixtures. Which, I suppose, would mean in practical terms that the gardener has more gross heat in the grow space, and must ventilate the entire space to remove that heat, rather than being able to remove the bulk of it via a simple fan/duct run of the light(s) only.
I'd be a complete hypocrite if I let such things bother ME
.Could it be simply a question of the old inverse square lighting law? Assuming you park your light as close to the top of your canopy as is reasonable in any event... If your buds are the size of your finger, lol, then the entire bud is closer than (guess as I didn't bother to measure my finger-to-arm length ratio
) 85% of the arm-sized one. Or something like that.Maybe a strain choice thing, too? When I think of BIG buds, I think of plants closer to the sativa end of the spectrum (more volume even when less mass) - which might naturally evince less visible trichomes than buds from plants that are closer to the indica end. Of course, if you were referring to the same strain/phenotype instead of two markedly different ones, then this wouldn't apply.
- Thread starter
- #71
TheFertilizer
Well-Known Member
Hmm, of the few strains I've grown or seen that didn't have a lot of trichome production, they were sativa or sativa-dominant, but I've never really noticed it with the same strain or cut. The only strain I've grown that didn't really burst with trichomes was Frankenberry, and I've never really even heard of that so it might have just been some bagseed from some bammer stuff. I've seen some other sativa-dominant stuff that wasn't so resinous, and was for sure grown in huge large colas.I assume this still applies:
But I have read that more people seem to run the 315-watt CMH setups with the ballasts attached - in other words, right there in the grow room - and in open fixtures. Which, I suppose, would mean in practical terms that the gardener has more gross heat in the grow space, and must ventilate the entire space to remove that heat, rather than being able to remove the bulk of it via a simple fan/duct run of the light(s) only.
I'd be a complete hypocrite if I let such things bother ME
Could it be simply a question of the old inverse square lighting law? Assuming you park your light as close to the top of your canopy as is reasonable in any event... If your buds are the size of your finger, lol, then the entire bud is closer than (guess as I didn't bother to measure my finger-to-arm length ratio
Maybe a strain choice thing, too? When I think of BIG buds, I think of plants closer to the sativa end of the spectrum (more volume even when less mass) - which might naturally evince less visible trichomes than buds from plants that are closer to the indica end. Of course, if you were referring to the same strain/phenotype instead of two markedly different ones, then this wouldn't apply.
Ganjagrowergu
Well-Known Member
My old set up. 550watts total. 1-Mars300, 1-250watt 2100k cfl, and 8-23watt cfls in different spectrums. 32" x 48" x 60" tent. Was just a hair over 50w/sq ft. Worked great but hotter than hot. Sativas loved it in there.
Now I run the same tent with 2 qb288 V1s in 4000k driven at 240 watts max (less than 24w/sq ft). I often run it around 50%-60% and adjust it as needed to control tent temps. Also works great.
I plan to add the old mars300 when I get it back from our friends tomorrow which will step me up to about 395watts. I won't be adding anymore, and next summer I will shut the Mars back down to help circumvent my climate problems.
My first grow I ran 1k watts of HID in a 4x4 and it was rife with problems. I gave away that whole setup.... so, finally, in conclusion, light grows buds. Lol. Have a good rest of your weekend everyone.
Now I run the same tent with 2 qb288 V1s in 4000k driven at 240 watts max (less than 24w/sq ft). I often run it around 50%-60% and adjust it as needed to control tent temps. Also works great.
I plan to add the old mars300 when I get it back from our friends tomorrow which will step me up to about 395watts. I won't be adding anymore, and next summer I will shut the Mars back down to help circumvent my climate problems.
My first grow I ran 1k watts of HID in a 4x4 and it was rife with problems. I gave away that whole setup.... so, finally, in conclusion, light grows buds. Lol. Have a good rest of your weekend everyone.
SLHLover
Well-Known Member
What an interesting thread! I too am a relatively low-watt grower. I live in a very hot place and am always looking for ways to reduce heat and electricity use. I am able to grow for 9-10 months of the year without using airco (just passive intake with extractor fan).
I have two tents :
Tent 1: 1x1x2 Metres with 240 Watt Full spectrum LED with passive heat syncs (really 240 Watts - this is a non-sponsor brand and an incredibly good light). I either grow six smaller plants (14 Litre airpots) or 4 bigger plants (in 20L airpots) in this space using coco/perlite mix and GHE nutes. Since LED doesn't have great penetration I train my plants constantly to fill up the entire space with an even canopy. The more the canopy is filled up, the better the yield. I either do manifolds (top 3 times for 8 colas per plant), a combination of topping and LSTing or with pure Indicas (that don't love topping too much), I do LST/supercropping only. I tend to defoliate throughout veg and just before flip to 12/12 clean up the plant, defoliate heavily and leave the top 3-4 nodes (depends on how far the light penetrates). End of week 3 of 12/12 another heavy defoliation/clean up. I regularly hit 0.75 -1gr per watt every harvest (this is weighed after a severe wet trim, a weeks dry and two weeks cure). My best result was the last grow where I had 2 x Super Lemon Haze and 2 x White widow in this tent. Total was 280 gr dried, cured bud (from a 240 Watt LED).
Tent 2: 60cmx60cmx160cm with a cheap 140 Watt "blurple" non-branded Chinese LED, We measured the true pull on this and it was 120 watts, This is a tent I use for breeding and seed making but have also grown a few plants to smoke. Only one (max two) plants are grown in this tent. Again plants grown are heavily trained and I regularly pull around 0.75-0.85 gr per watt from this tent. Slightly lower than the other tent - but I am pretty sure this is down to the superior LED I have in tent number 1.
Apart from a decent light and good genetics, I find the main factor that affects quality and quantity of produce is by having an as close to ideal environtment as possible. Proper temps, RH, airflow etc makes a BIG difference (even if using a powerful light). Of course it is easier to obtain bigger yields with higher wattage lights, but I am very happy with my results and grow enough for myself - at the same time using a lot less electricity and keeping costs down. A friend of mine who runs 3 grow rooms each with a 600 W HPS, has also drastically improved his yield by defoliating regularly. 600w HPS will result in a good crop but he regularly improves yields by 50-60% by defoliating. I don't mean to be controversial by bringing up defoliation (I know many are against this) but it works for me and my HPS-loving friend. Since HPS generally has better penetration than most LEDs, after trying defoliation in a planned, controlled manner (not going crazy pulling off leaves indiscriminately), his improvement in yield was great than mine as I use LEDs exclusively).
I have two tents :
Tent 1: 1x1x2 Metres with 240 Watt Full spectrum LED with passive heat syncs (really 240 Watts - this is a non-sponsor brand and an incredibly good light). I either grow six smaller plants (14 Litre airpots) or 4 bigger plants (in 20L airpots) in this space using coco/perlite mix and GHE nutes. Since LED doesn't have great penetration I train my plants constantly to fill up the entire space with an even canopy. The more the canopy is filled up, the better the yield. I either do manifolds (top 3 times for 8 colas per plant), a combination of topping and LSTing or with pure Indicas (that don't love topping too much), I do LST/supercropping only. I tend to defoliate throughout veg and just before flip to 12/12 clean up the plant, defoliate heavily and leave the top 3-4 nodes (depends on how far the light penetrates). End of week 3 of 12/12 another heavy defoliation/clean up. I regularly hit 0.75 -1gr per watt every harvest (this is weighed after a severe wet trim, a weeks dry and two weeks cure). My best result was the last grow where I had 2 x Super Lemon Haze and 2 x White widow in this tent. Total was 280 gr dried, cured bud (from a 240 Watt LED).
Tent 2: 60cmx60cmx160cm with a cheap 140 Watt "blurple" non-branded Chinese LED, We measured the true pull on this and it was 120 watts, This is a tent I use for breeding and seed making but have also grown a few plants to smoke. Only one (max two) plants are grown in this tent. Again plants grown are heavily trained and I regularly pull around 0.75-0.85 gr per watt from this tent. Slightly lower than the other tent - but I am pretty sure this is down to the superior LED I have in tent number 1.
Apart from a decent light and good genetics, I find the main factor that affects quality and quantity of produce is by having an as close to ideal environtment as possible. Proper temps, RH, airflow etc makes a BIG difference (even if using a powerful light). Of course it is easier to obtain bigger yields with higher wattage lights, but I am very happy with my results and grow enough for myself - at the same time using a lot less electricity and keeping costs down. A friend of mine who runs 3 grow rooms each with a 600 W HPS, has also drastically improved his yield by defoliating regularly. 600w HPS will result in a good crop but he regularly improves yields by 50-60% by defoliating. I don't mean to be controversial by bringing up defoliation (I know many are against this) but it works for me and my HPS-loving friend. Since HPS generally has better penetration than most LEDs, after trying defoliation in a planned, controlled manner (not going crazy pulling off leaves indiscriminately), his improvement in yield was great than mine as I use LEDs exclusively).
Now I run the same tent with 2 qb288 V1s in 4000k driven at 240 watts max (less than 24w/sq ft). I often run it around 50%-60% and adjust it as needed to control tent temps. Also works great.
Switching to auto-flowering strains helps when you drop your wattage, because you can flower under 18 (or more) hours of light per day, thereby keeping the DLI higher than would be the case - 50% higher @ 18/day than @ 12/day for the same lighting. That doesn't speak for penetration, spectrum, or anything else of course, just gross light amount.
I do not really know if this is directly quantifiable - as in, whether you'd get the same result that you would if you flowered those exact same plants under 360 watts (50% more than actual) @ 12 hours per day - but it's certainly going to be significant, whatever the exact numbers end up being.
Ganjagrowergu
Well-Known Member
I am about to start an autoflower breeding project for this reason. Ordered the C.S. this evening. Definitely going to self an SSDC and back cross to DDA. The goal is an unlimited supply of purple buds that dont care how poor I am.
A little dab will do ya, lol. Ask @Rifleman how many seeds he ended up with from his little one-shot.
Peppers
Well-Known Member
Hi guys I think I forgot to post a picture of the results of my chest of drawers with my Mars hydro 300w
Here's a couple of pictures
It yielded just over 46 grams and was a good smoke. I've now upgraded to a wardrobe setup and went from using 1 litre pots to using 2 litre pots.
Cheers guy's
Here's a couple of pictures
Cheers guy's
When I bred the original SSDC, yes they are MY creation, I used two plants. One a DDA which I sprayed one budsite with CS for 21 days, the other a Mephisto Sour Crack. They were in a 4x4 by themselves with a fan blowing on the pollen sacs forcing the pollen onto both plants.
After harvest and drying I hand removed and counted each seed. Over 6000 total. 4000+ DDA(S1) and 2000+ SSDC(F1).
Good luck !
Thanks @TorturedSoul. I had not seen this thread before.
If anyone is interested I'm using 50w COB lights. One per plant. I used them in my last dwc grow and loved them. This is my first grow in anything but dwc so if you go to my journal cut me some slack on the current grow, and go back a few pages and see what monsters can be grown.
If anyone is interested I can pass along purchase info in a pm as they arent a 420Mag sponser... yet. Talks are under way.
If anyone is interested I'm using 50w COB lights. One per plant. I used them in my last dwc grow and loved them. This is my first grow in anything but dwc so if you go to my journal cut me some slack on the current grow, and go back a few pages and see what monsters can be grown.
If anyone is interested I can pass along purchase info in a pm as they arent a 420Mag sponser... yet. Talks are under way.
My first light. A Maxsisun MDR300. 300w (3w chip set) full spectrum with IR and UV. It is dimmable.
Fist indoor grow. Just a couple bagseeds.
One hermied an was pulled.
Dry weight from one plant. 2 ounces.
Know I am running two autos under that light.
And my new light.
JAHOTECH 1000w full spectrum ir uv
10w chip set.
2.5x2.5x5.3 tent.
And then my 150w cfl for cloning.
I do believe that each light by it's self qualifies for this thread.
Trying to do a SOG.
Wish me luck
Fist indoor grow. Just a couple bagseeds.
One hermied an was pulled.
Dry weight from one plant. 2 ounces.
Know I am running two autos under that light.
And my new light.
JAHOTECH 1000w full spectrum ir uv
10w chip set.
2.5x2.5x5.3 tent.
And then my 150w cfl for cloning.
I do believe that each light by it's self qualifies for this thread.
Trying to do a SOG.
Wish me luck