SweetSue's Cannabis Oil Study Hall

[SweetSue]

In any case they are reports from people who compared their regular edibles to edibles with lecithin, not my experience. But what i find interesting now is your half a gram. 5ml of my oil is about half a gram.. first time i tried that much, i was high for TWO DAYS (didn't have any tolerance then), more of a body stone though. About a month ago i tried the same one evening and it held me strong right through the night and all of next morning lightly.



If its hitting that quickly, where is it being absorbed? That's something to read up on..
I recall badkittysmiles stating that we want liver absorption for full effect and lecithin was crucial for that. Now that we know we are actually trying to bypass the liver, where does that put us with lecithin and 'fast' absorption..?

I don't recall reading that statement by badkittysmiles, but it may have been in connection to her preference for coconut oil, which, as a medium-chained fatty acid directs the meds to the liver. That route is her intention. I don't believe lecithin has any special affinity for the liver. If I'm wrong here and you recall the post I'd appreciate a direction to it so I can review it myself.

I'm also going to assume that she believes the most powerful cannabinoid in play is always Delta-9 THC. Given some of my recent readings, I'm not sure that's a sound assumption.

As to the quick onset, you got me. It surprises me every time, and yet there it is. Obviously I'm getting metabolized at an incredibly rapid rate, at a time when it's assumed to still be in the stomach acids. It must get fast tracked out of the stomach. An interesting mystery. How on earth will we solve it?

 

[Canyon]

Sue,

Probably the first thing to do is leave the lecithin out of the next morning drink. It could be something else that is responsible or a combination of other ingredients including the lecithin.

I never know
canyon

 

[SweetSue]

Sue,

Probably the first thing to do is leave the lecithin out of the next morning drink. It could be something else that is responsible or a combination of other ingredients including the lecithin.

I never know
canyon

I have done brownies with and without and the difference is startling. I'm fairly certain it's the lecithin making the difference there. With the smoothie, part of what happens is the chemical reaction between the carrier oil and the sulphydryl groups in the cottage cheese also works to fascilitate rapid absorbtion, so the smoothies offer a double whammy of absorbtion.

 

[PsyCro]

I don't recall reading that statement by badkittysmiles, but it may have been in connection to her preference for coconut oil, which, as a medium-chained fatty acid directs the meds to the liver. That route is her intention. I don't believe lecithin has any special affinity for the liver. If I'm wrong here and you recall the post I'd appreciate a direction to it so I can review it myself.

my bad, it was just about coconut oil for the liver, and lecithin for better absorption

I'm also going to assume that she believes the most powerful cannabinoid in play is always Delta-9 THC. Given some of my recent readings, I'm not sure that's a sound assumption.

not sure about that, she DOES mention the need for converting THCdelta9 to OH-11-THC for maximum effect, at least that was the mantra in posts from a couple years ago. And are you saying you now believe THCdelta9 isn't most important?

As to the quick onset, you got me. It surprises me every time, and yet there it is. Obviously I'm getting metabolized at an incredibly rapid rate, at a time when it's assumed to still be in the stomach acids. It must get fast tracked out of the stomach. An interesting mystery. How on earth will we solve it?

you got me there, as i mentioned before, that one is gonna take some reading!

you didn't make any mention of the fact that half a gram for me lasted 1 to 2 days with more of a body stone, but.. i phoned a couple places and could only find lecithin in capsules or granules, when i find the liquid type (easiest to mix with the oil, i'll give it a try...

 

[JBUptown]

Any recommendations for a brand or source for lecithin?

A health food store nearby has capsules, but not sure, never bought lecithin before for anything. I must admit, I have heard the word and read it a thousand times, but I didn't really know it's source or usefulness to humans. Cooking Spray is loaded with it ... so that's going to be my source, I'll just empty a can o' Pam in the CCO ... just kidding!

Interesting stuff!

Best Of Buds

JB

 

[Dave Groomer]

I got mine from either cramazon or wally world.

 

[SweetSue]

you didn't make any mention of the fact that half a gram for me lasted 1 to 2 days with more of a body stone, but.. i phoned a couple places and could only find lecithin in capsules or granules, when i find the liquid type (easiest to mix with the oil, i'll give it a try...

I didn't mention that fact about your oil, but I certainly made mental note of it. That olive oil infusion you prepare fascinates me. I suspect you'd be surprised at the numbers if it were tested.

Although I don't dispute the anti-cancer properties of Delta-9 THC, THCA, CBDA, CBD and CBC are also effective cancer fighters, and we must remember that with cannabis, it's not the isolated components that offer the most benefit, but the synergistic interactions of the entourage effect. The more I read the more obvious it becomes that we're somewhat misguided in focusing so tightly on THC and CBD.

It also concerns me that decarb destroys the terpenes. After all, it's myrcene that fascilitates the passage through the blood/brain barrier, and that's only one terpene. So we're focused on two components out of hundreds and destroying some of the most important components to produce oil with the two we deem so necessary. Something about this picture disturbs me, and I'm still feeling my way through to something that makes more sense.

I'm not suggesting that what's been used is ineffective. Not at all, but I feel instinctively that there are some important tweaks that could be made to make it better. Possibly significantly better. In my opinion, either conserving the terpenes and flavinoids or replacing them at some reasonable ratio would be a good starting point, something some of you have already begun to do. This part of the process is still beyond me, but I'll be catching up at some point.

Any recommendations for a brand or source for lecithin?

A health food store nearby has capsules, but not sure, never bought lecithin before for anything. I must admit, I have heard the word and read it a thousand times, but I didn't really know it's source or usefulness to humans. Cooking Spray is loaded with it ... so that's going to be my source, I'll just empty a can o' Pam in the CCO ... just kidding!

Interesting stuff!

Best Of Buds

JB

I got mine from either cramazon or wally world.

I went with the rain forest site too. NOW brand.

 

[PsyCro]

I didn't mention that fact about your oil, but I certainly made mental note of it. That olive oil infusion you prepare fascinates me. I suspect you'd be surprised at the numbers if it were tested.

Although I don't dispute the anti-cancer properties of Delta-9 THC, THCA, CBDA, CBD and CBC are also effective cancer fighters, and we must remember that with cannabis, it's not the isolated components that offer the most benefit, but the synergistic interactions of the entourage effect. The more I read the more obvious it becomes that we're somewhat misguided in focusing so tightly on THC and CBD.

It also concerns me that decarb destroys the terpenes. After all, it's myrcene that fascilitates the passage through the blood/brain barrier, and that's only one terpene. So we're focused on two components out of hundreds and destroying some of the most important components to produce oil with the two we deem so necessary. Something about this picture disturbs me, and I'm still feeling my way through to something that makes more sense.

aha, i see, the entourage effect, yes for sure i believe that is what we are after! after all, its one of the reasons we mix strains for oil..

.. and decarbing mostly destroys terps if done beforehand in an oven, as shown in the italian study by Hazenkampf, if done after or during extraction a lot is still retained.. with the pressure cooker even more i'm sure.

 

[fookinel]

Any recommendations for a brand or source for lecithin?

A health food store nearby has capsules, but not sure, never bought lecithin before for anything. I must admit, I have heard the word and read it a thousand times, but I didn't really know it's source or usefulness to humans. Cooking Spray is loaded with it ... so that's going to be my source, I'll just empty a can o' Pam in the CCO ... just kidding!

Interesting stuff!

Best Of Buds

JB

I think something like the liquid sunflower lecithin SweetSue posted a photo of here would be best, however, if you really need something in a pinch I saw a video on the Cannabis Budwig protocol where they used sunflower lecithin capsules.

You can see the video here (they open up a capsule at about 2m10s in to the video):

Cannabis Budwig Protocol - YouTube

 

[fookinel]

you didn't make any mention of the fact that half a gram for me lasted 1 to 2 days with more of a body stone, but.. i phoned a couple places and could only find lecithin in capsules or granules, when i find the liquid type (easiest to mix with the oil, i'll give it a try...

Unfortunately, I don't really think that anyone can determine the therapeutic effect of a medicinal cannabis treatment based on any psychological effects.

For a start, I remember discussing (I think with SlowToke earlier in this thread) what actually causes psychological effects. I remember looking at research from the 1970's where some suggested an active metabolite theory (suggesting that 11-hydroxy-delta-9-thc causes the psychological effects rather than delta-9-thc) and some other research suggesting that delta-9-thc directly causes psychological effects.

Even if you assume that delta-9-thc does causes psychological effects then you need to consider that you're most likely comparing different strains with different cannabinoid/terpene profiles.

Even if you compare the same strains you then need to consider that different people will have different responses. I wish I could find the research, but I read a paper or a summary of a paper somewhere that looked at the onset of psychological effects based on a persons ability to metabolise compounds and they found no correlation between the two.

What I'm getting at is I can't see how comparing one extraction method of certain strains given to a small number of people can be compared to another extraction method with different strains given to different people!

Having said that, I'd really like to figure out a way to determine whether your olive oil extraction method is significantly different to a CCO (such as an alcohol extraction) dissolved in olive oil. I don't mean the difference in compounds, I mean whether the compounds are absorbed/metabolised differently. On one hand I can see that the thc in the CCO dissolved in olive oil is exactly the same as the thc when using olive oil to extract it while on the other hand I can see that there could be a difference, perhaps some chemical bond that only forms when using olive oil to extract the thc. I'm not sure that makes sense but I can't think of a better way to explain it!

 

[Dave Groomer]

I didn't mention that fact about your oil, but I certainly made mental note of it. That olive oil infusion you prepare fascinates me. I suspect you'd be surprised at the numbers if it were tested.

Although I don't dispute the anti-cancer properties of Delta-9 THC, THCA, CBDA, CBD and CBC are also effective cancer fighters, and we must remember that with cannabis, it's not the isolated components that offer the most benefit, but the synergistic interactions of the entourage effect. The more I read the more obvious it becomes that we're somewhat misguided in focusing so tightly on THC and CBD.

It also concerns me that decarb destroys the terpenes. After all, it's myrcene that fascilitates the passage through the blood/brain barrier, and that's only one terpene. So we're focused on two components out of hundreds and destroying some of the most important components to produce oil with the two we deem so necessary. Something about this picture disturbs me, and I'm still feeling my way through to something that makes more sense.

I'm not suggesting that what's been used is ineffective. Not at all, but I feel instinctively that there are some important tweaks that could be made to make it better. Possibly significantly better. In my opinion, either conserving the terpenes and flavinoids or replacing them at some reasonable ratio would be a good starting point, something some of you have already begun to do. This part of the process is still beyond me, but I'll be catching up at some point.





I went with the rain forest site too. NOW brand.

That is the one!!!

 

[SweetSue]

Unfortunately, I don't really think that anyone can determine the therapeutic effect of a medicinal cannabis treatment based on any psychological effects.

For a start, I remember discussing (I think with SlowToke earlier in this thread) what actually causes psychological effects. I remember looking at research from the 1970's where some suggested an active metabolite theory (suggesting that 11-hydroxy-delta-9-thc causes the psychological effects rather than delta-9-thc) and some other research suggesting that delta-9-thc directly causes psychological effects.

Even if you assume that delta-9-thc does causes psychological effects then you need to consider that you're most likely comparing different strains with different cannabinoid/terpene profiles.

Even if you compare the same strains you then need to consider that different people will have different responses. I wish I could find the research, but I read a paper or a summary of a paper somewhere that looked at the onset of psychological effects based on a persons ability to metabolise compounds and they found no correlation between the two.

What I'm getting at is I can't see how comparing one extraction method of certain strains given to a small number of people can be compared to another extraction method with different strains given to different people!

Having said that, I'd really like to figure out a way to determine whether your olive oil extraction method is significantly different to a CCO (such as an alcohol extraction) dissolved in olive oil. I don't mean the difference in compounds, I mean whether the compounds are absorbed/metabolised differently. On one hand I can see that the thc in the CCO dissolved in olive oil is exactly the same as the thc when using olive oil to extract it while on the other hand I can see that there could be a difference, perhaps some chemical bond that only forms when using olive oil to extract the thc. I'm not sure that makes sense but I can't think of a better way to explain it!

I've been thinking this myself all night. Last night Cajun left a comment on PsyCro's thread about reflux, and that had me researching the process to better understand what PsyCro's doing, which had me wondering about the possible chemical reactions going on. I'm convinced there's something special about this olive oil extraction, and the use of the pressure cooker really has me excited.

PsyCro, I need to read that study on decarbing. Somehow I missed that, and I'm one who decarbs in the oven prior to freezing. Obviously not my best choice if I'm interested in conserving terpenes and flavinoids.

 

[PeeJay]

Drying, let alone decarbing, eliminates lots of monoterpenes. If you do both...

I have gotten some questions about pictures I posted on the eyecandy thread. What they show is a way of making terpine conserved activated oil for oral consumption from "live resin." Live resin is something that can be procured at many dispensaries but making it at home is not something that is acceptable to discuss here because it's a hazardous process.

Here is what I did:

3 grams of Panama, 4 grams of Sage 'n Sour, and two grams of Bangi Haze live resin with a little bit of organic extra virgin olive oil in a large silicone jar. I will use a little less olive oil next time but I wasn't far off. It needs a little carrier oil or it would cool to a hard toffee (the kind that will pull out a loose molar) consistency after decarb.

The sealed jar was placed on a rack in a cuisinart electric pressure cooker above ~1/2 inch of water on the low pressure setting. The low pressure setting is 6 psi. At sea level and 6 psi water boils at 230 F. Adjusted for my high altitude it is 220 F. Ideal. When the water reached a boil the container was placed on the rack, the lid sealed, and the timer was set for 13 minuets. I figured it was sort of like hardboiling an egg without the yolk turning blue...

After 13 minuets the pressure was released and the container removed. Little bubbles indicated active decarboxilation. Gave it a stir and it frothed a little more.

The silicone jars are great. Silicone is heat stable to 450 F and we never even got close to that - super easy to suck the warm oil up into a syringe. Clean up is a breeze.

Note the light caramel color of the oil in the syringe. It is far less oxidized than oil produced from dried plant material and more oxidized than the live resin was to begin with. In contrast I made a batch of all indica oil the same way using 3 grams each of Chitral and DarkStar live resin but added 3 grams of 90 micron Chitral kief collected from dried material by the dry ice method. The dried kief resulted in a much darker, more oxidized oil.

Beginning with fresh or fresh frozen material is the starting point for conserving terpines - that and a hasty decarb.

Despite all that the terpines and phytochemicals found in cannabis are volatile and also relatively abundant from other plant food sources. The diversity of cannabanoids are what makes cannabis unique. A person concerned with their health, it can be realistically supposed, would be better off getting the full compliment of phytochemicals by eating a diet rich in fresh vegetables and fruits than agonizing over the terpine levels of their CCO.

I didn't really set out to make golden terpine rich oral oil. I wanted to make oil and I had live resin to make it out of on hand. People like to vape live resin for the flavor. It tastes great. The golden oil is also tasty.

 

[Mighty Mouse]

I plan on doing an experiment putting some terpenes back using a product from EXTRACT CONSULTANTS LLC.
Indica Isolated Terpene Blend (clear) - Extract Consultants

 

[PsyCro]

Unfortunately, I don't really think that anyone can determine the therapeutic effect of a medicinal cannabis treatment based on any psychological effects.

For a start, I remember discussing (I think with SlowToke earlier in this thread) what actually causes psychological effects. I remember looking at research from the 1970's where some suggested an active metabolite theory (suggesting that 11-hydroxy-delta-9-thc causes the psychological effects rather than delta-9-thc) and some other research suggesting that delta-9-thc directly causes psychological effects.

hm, most likely both do to an extent, otherwise we would never have such a quick onset with some delivery methods (but rather the effect changes with time)? 1970's, hmm.. lots of the studies we throw around are from many maaaany moons ago, and not done with whole plant extracts, kind of irritating isn't it!?

Even if you assume that delta-9-thc does causes psychological effects then you need to consider that you're most likely comparing different strains with different cannabinoid/terpene profiles.

Even if you compare the same strains you then need to consider that different people will have different responses. I wish I could find the research, but I read a paper or a summary of a paper somewhere that looked at the onset of psychological effects based on a persons ability to metabolise compounds and they found no correlation between the two.

What I'm getting at is I can't see how comparing one extraction method of certain strains given to a small number of people can be compared to another extraction method with different strains given to different people!

different people different effects, this is one of the big ones, all of our experience is actually based greatly on this.. so yeah, it makes it that much harder talking about all of this.

Having said that, I'd really like to figure out a way to determine whether your olive oil extraction method is significantly different to a CCO (such as an alcohol extraction) dissolved in olive oil. I don't mean the difference in compounds, I mean whether the compounds are absorbed/metabolised differently. On one hand I can see that the thc in the CCO dissolved in olive oil is exactly the same as the thc when using olive oil to extract it while on the other hand I can see that there could be a difference, perhaps some chemical bond that only forms when using olive oil to extract the thc. I'm not sure that makes sense but I can't think of a better way to explain it!

It's different certainly in terpene/flavanoid/cannaboid content.. but absorption-wise, cannabinoids need a carrier of some sort, they work best that way, isn't that what we've been saying all along (minus the tacking method which is oromucosal and the jury is still debating)?

 

[SweetSue]

It's different certainly in terpene/flavanoid/cannaboid content.. but absorption-wise, cannabinoids need a carrier of some sort, they work best that way, isn't that what we've been saying all along (minus the tacking method which is oromucosal and the jury is still debating)?

Dr. Dustin Sulak actually recommends switching from inhaling to oromucosal for a delivery method. I wonder if I reach out to him if he'd be able to give me a decent explaination of his reasoning and what he bases this recommendation on? I'd have to assume though that his patient labs, done in-house at his practice, would be tracking this to some extent.

It really frustrates me as well that all this research was done with isolated components and most often in lab dishes or in animal studies, which IMHO bear little, if any relevance when you're talking about an herbal treatment that effects every one of us differently.

We do have a challenge, don't we?

Concerning the THC, one of the things that SlowToke learned at the Patients Out Of Time conference was that current research suggests that delta-9 THC and 11-HO THC are equilivant in their psychoactive effects, discounting our belief that the metabolized version was many times more psychoactive.

There's so much we've taken for granted that's now being exposed as misinformation or too little information.

 

[MagicJim]

Did you know that terpenes are water soluble?

Says so in this article. Also provides some insight into the extraction equipment which would be necessary for real medical testing of oil or concentrates. Not likely to have quality medical testing while cannabis is schedule I.

 

[Pigeons420]

That's interesting Jim. Makes me think about Budwashing.

 

[SweetSue]

Did you know that terpenes are water soluble?

Says so in this article. Also provides some insight into the extraction equipment which would be necessary for real medical testing of oil or concentrates. Not likely to have quality medical testing while cannabis is schedule I.

No, I did not know that Jim. What an exciting article. It gives me great hope for the future. If they could only control market price better.

That gave me pause too, Pigeons. That would explain the loss of scent following the wash. I know you're not losing all of them, because people are getting test results with flowers that've been washed that show terpene counts. It does make you think though. I wonder if anyone's done a comparison test, washed against unwashed, for terpene counts?

 

[MagicJim]

Never fear folks....It's the internet and we can continue our search for the truth. The key is what shall we believe?