SweetSue's Cannabis Oil Study Hall

[LVMarc42]

Amy

I use MMJ for lower back pain relief.

Currently, I take 1-2 ml , so like one squirt or two , of my ‘dragon extract’.
So, here weed is cold washed//weed decarbed 230 in oil bath for 42 minutes./ with cold ethanol.
Strain/gently/putting this first/top pour/ creme de le creme / batch aside/ quickly dump it back into,first jar/ ad s-lash of cold ethanol/chill for one hour// strain second pour into second dragon vessel/ //place used weed to the side for analysis/consumption.
Ok,those two jars of ethanol- now colored greenish /brownish beautiful.. contain >95%.imho. Of the medicine on .those buds. Maybe 99%??

Let chill for hours or overnight/ your call.

There will be natural separation at these cold temperatures/all in freezer/ all below -5 F// outside freezer 60 seconds/ minimize open air exposure./cold utensils/Steiner cold..strainer///lol../
So any debris left in fluid freezes with h2 o / waxes/ anything not ethanol/ thc Cbd cb x/all/ terpenoids 9some)/everything in the trichomes some of the leaf structure/not much since its so cold and so fast/ no leeching of leaf structure.

Ok again cold filtering, pour off top 50-75% into final container/cover/
Pour top 50,-75% of second ‘catching’ into final container/cover and re freeze//

Ok repeat cold filtering till/you’ll know//

Dosing/get a little ‘tincture ‘ bottle with eye dropper/ fill with your stuff/ dose
Dose 1-2 ml per ;
Shot of espresso
Shot/small cup,coffe/
Dose when piping hot.
Ethanol evaporates/oil floats/ drink..

Dose a/nd amounts..

Start with 250 ml of ethanol infused .dragon.so about 200-250 ml/ 4-6 ounces /of finished med’icine.
And you extracted from 27-30 grams /about ounce of weed/weeds/ I like four different chemovars / so 6-8 grams of four kinds..when I can.lol..
Trade with your friends for more chemovars.. that’s a winning strategy for sure..lo

Ok 30,grams// 15 % extarctabels// at least 4 grams and not more than 5 grams for pure delight ‘in thiere..so minimizing

4 grams/4000 milligrams of cannabis oils /in that leafy weed/ maybe more. Maybe 4500 mg.of thc and. Cbd.
If there more oil extracted then it’s got leaf structure..in it. Like scented. Wax.i don’t use that part.

Ok diluted into 200 ml ///
4000/200 = 20// 20,what? // 20 milligrams medicine in each 1 ml dropper of total,fluid.

So,now what /RIGHT/?..
ok one squirt /like half teaspoon/ has 20 mg pure thc/Cbd diluted into it.
You put into shot of coffee/ you get 1/2 a joint dose ina gulp..more or less.

You can use two ml doses. At one time.
A dose may last you 3-5 hours.

Or use dragon liquid to make pure oil. Smoke that. Or re infused the oil to make whatever you like.... just a thought Amy...

A word on ethanol. Many use everclear . And it’s ok.
There stuff from Eastern Europe. Russia Poland /that’s 96% alcohol /a whooping /198 proof// cleaner extract/with less water/
At these alcohol levels you must restrict open air exposure time/ zero time is good/ so work fast and smart or the fluid absorbs water from the air each minutes it’s exposed.

That’s why you transfer 10 -20 ml to dropper and dose fromsmall container. Keep it cold and cool. Or use in few days at room temp.
Keep jar of dragon cold cold cold/ no air till gone or gone to oil. So gone .lol..

I use the dragon for two weeks exclusively. Prior infused chocolates.. infused from CCO oil not dragon.. won’t work..too much ethanol for chocolate. I’m sure.. but will use remaining half of my dragon , to make chocolate oil and will report effectiveness comparisons.inside me.. best I can. Good luck with your ‘cooking’’

 

[SweetSue]

Thank you Marc, just for being you.

The information...... that was great too.

 

[Oldbear]

Thanks - I’m feeling like I absorbed less that I’d thought over that last few months about the oil making and decarb’ing.

So when you do yours covered by the tinfoil with a little hole pricked in it, I’m assuming there’s no shaking of the bottle required...?

.

No I don't shake it or stir it while in the oven. Ill give it a short stir before I drain the oil off.

Also I keep all the oil soaked plant material in the fridge (freezer for long term storage) and use it in baking, on salads, in soup and sometime I just eat it. 1/4 teaspoon or so. I like the nutty taste. There is no lost or wasted cannabinoids of significance.

One reason I do small batches is storing the dry cannabis is easy but storing the oil and leftover you need to be concerned with mold. I make enough for 2 to 3 weeks. Ive never has a mold problem in that timeframe.

 

[Oldbear]

Thanks - I’m feeling like I absorbed less that I’d thought over that last few months about the oil making and decarb’ing.

.

What I have learned is that there are many many recipes for decarbing and extraction of terpenes and cannabinoids out there. Ive tried quite a few. There is no 'best method' but many acceptable processes.

Ive settled on the method described because its great for small batches, its simple, and easy. Its healthy because all the components are edible and good for you. There is no waste.

And I cant really make a mistake that ruins the plant material that I have. Way too hot and/or far too long is easily avoided.

Enough infomercial lol.

 

[Oldbear]

I found the 36 hour no more post from Sue:

I learned yesterday that the 36 hour process does not decarb completely. In fact, the batch I finished last night took three hours over a hot oil bath to completely decarb.

That was as long as it took to make FHO, so I may change my approach to eliminate the 36-hr cook. I still like the idea of steeping it at a low temperature, and I'll likely use that as a step for some artisan oils, but for everyday meds it's not worth the time or energy expended to run the oven for 36 hrs straight.

I'll be making the oil from now on by blending the buds and carrier oil...

...and decarbing in hot oil. This will infuse and I'll be able to monitor the decarb. It's basically FHO without the water content with these low and slo dried buds.

 

[SweetSue]

Hi Amy You have to do what makes you comfortable A less than 100% decarb is actually beneficial. THCa and CBDx have many healing properties.

Good luck and best wishes.

This pretty much sums it up for me. We fuss so much about getting a complete decarb, and the more I study cannabinoids and the ECS the more I realize that a well-rounded cannabinoid profile in the oil is a good thing. THCa has been identified as a major contributor to reducing inflammation. That sealed it for me. I'm certain that as we learn more about cannabinoids and their interaction with terpenes we'll come to the conclusion that the best way to use cannabis for healing potential is to ingest it raw.

It's also occured to me as I do hot oil baths and discover how much of my "potent" oils were nowhere near complete decarb that it takes far less THC to be effective than we realize. So in my opinion we can stop all that fussing, find a method that gives us the effects we seek with the least amount of stress, and stick with it.

Of course, we'll keep playing around because there'll be times when the total decarb is what we want. But for the most part it appears that the more diversified cannabinoid load may be the most beneficial for the greatest number of patients.

 

[daddyherb]

Newbie here, and I'm just starting my journey through all of this fantastic information. I've printed this chart, and I'm wondering if there is any similiar PDF or screen grab which expounds more on this chart? Otherwise, for a complete rookie like myself, I'd need to get a dictionary out, and look up "anti-ischemic" "antipsoriatic" etc, one-by-one.. Any kind of chart which defines what each of these means in laymen's terms? Much thanks! Love all this information, and I'm anxious to get through the over 100 pages of addition information, so I can introduce myself in better detail, and start asking some more in-depth questions (maybe even contribute at some point).

Forgot to quote the original post, but I was referring to the first page of this thread from SweetSue, Figure 1. "Pharmacological actions of non-psychotropic cannabinoids"

 

[daddyherb]

The more I read, the more overwhelmed I get! There is obviously a great deal of priceless information in this thread, but I think I may be WAY too new to the medical cannabis world to get my head around most of this. I'm using cannabis to treat my 7-year old autistic daughter who has two types of seizures.

Initially, I was trying to decide if I wanted to just use my magical butter machine to make a coconut infused cannabis oil for her medicine, or to make a concentrate using everclear. Now I feel that I need to better understand what the differences are between sativa strains and indica strains, what all the different chemicals are in the plant (that we know of) - such as THC, THCA, CBD, CBC, CBG, THCV, etc (I knew about CBD and THC). Also, I need to learn what decarbalization is, and what method of application is best suited to sustain the highest "bioavailability" of medicine for my daughter. I assume that I need a medicine which will successfully cross that "Blood Brain Barrier" since her seizure activity originates in the brain (autism also).

Before I go any further on this thread (I made it to about Page 10 before I felt very overwhelmed), can someone refer me to any good resources where I can start learning the "basics," so I can better follow along with the information in this thread? Also, I tried to message @SweetSue, but I need to accumulate 25 total posts before I can do that. I really appreciate any help someone can provide. Sorry If I've "High-jacked" this wonderful thread, and I promise not to post anything else here until I have something useful to add to the conversation.

Signed, a desperate and stressed special-needs father.

 

[Oldbear]

Hi Daddyherb Welcome to a wonderful place. The chart you mention is very technical and very detailed. All the words around the circle are +ve outcomes from cannabis use. They point to which cannabinoid element contributes to that +ve outcome. You don't need to know detail at this level.

Newbie here, and I'm just starting my journey through all of this fantastic information. I've printed this chart, and I'm wondering if there is any similiar PDF or screen grab which expounds more on this chart? Otherwise, for a complete rookie like myself, I'd need to get a dictionary out, and look up "anti-ischemic" "antipsoriatic" etc, one-by-one.. Any kind of chart which defines what each of these means in laymen's terms? Much thanks! Love all this information, and I'm anxious to get through the over 100 pages of addition information, so I can introduce myself in better detail, and start asking some more in-depth questions (maybe even contribute at some point).

Forgot to quote the original post, but I was referring to the first page of this thread from SweetSue, Figure 1. "Pharmacological actions of non-psychotropic cannabinoids"

 

[Oldbear]

DaddyH I have spent countless hours reading things here over 18 months. Ive probably absorbed 10 % of the priceless information

What you are doing is worthy of much praise and encouragement. You will get that here from many. Sweet Sue will be along soon enough and there will be hugs. There is no hijack. What you are asking and the knowledge you are seeking is why this thread exists.

I have never done any research regarding cannabis treatment for seizures, but I can lend a hand to get you on the track of a manageable learning curve.

First, I suggest a web search on Charlottes web - a story about a young girl with seizers and how medical cannabis has helped her.

You need answers to a few questions:

What specific product(s) are best for the types of seizures she has.
Where can you get that.
How to make edible oils from the product(s) above.
How to take it.
How much and how often - a dosage plan.

Lets knock off an easy one - if you already have a Butter Machine, that's perfect. It has a couple of easy to follow recipes for making edible oils - either coconut oil or olive oil. Many people here use them and are satisfied with decarb rates. I would stay away from any solvent based extracts.

Bioavailability - important and based on how its taken and things to eat in advance to increase it.

What strain - others will chime in here on best strains for seizures. I think a low thc high cbd combination is what is recommended for this.

Do you have access to what you need? Depends on where you are - whats the nearest big city? What is the legal status of cannabis there?

Ill be back with more but best advice I can offer: Avoid making things too precise, too specific with times and temperatures and extraction percentages.

Cannabis is a healing herb and is very forgiving.

Motivation: A friend of my daughters has improved their child's seizure problems with a purchased High CBD edible oil. Good results. I will find out more if I can.

That tsunami of information you are looking at is about to get much smaller.

The more I read, the more overwhelmed I get! There is obviously a great deal of priceless information in this thread, but I think I may be WAY too new to the medical cannabis world to get my head around most of this. I'm using cannabis to treat my 7-year old autistic daughter who has two types of seizures.

Initially, I was trying to decide if I wanted to just use my magical butter machine to make a coconut infused cannabis oil for her medicine, or to make a concentrate using everclear. Now I feel that I need to better understand what the differences are between sativa strains and indica strains, what all the different chemicals are in the plant (that we know of) - such as THC, THCA, CBD, CBC, CBG, THCV, etc (I knew about CBD and THC). Also, I need to learn what decarbalization is, and what method of application is best suited to sustain the highest "bioavailability" of medicine for my daughter. I assume that I need a medicine which will successfully cross that "Blood Brain Barrier" since her seizure activity originates in the brain (autism also).

Before I go any further on this thread (I made it to about Page 10 before I felt very overwhelmed), can someone refer me to any good resources where I can start learning the "basics," so I can better follow along with the information in this thread? Also, I tried to message @sweetsue, but I need to accumulate 25 total posts before I can do that. I really appreciate any help someone can provide. Sorry If I've "High-jacked" this wonderful thread, and I promise not to post anything else here until I have something useful to add to the conversation.

Signed, a desperate and stressed special-needs father.

 

[Amy Gardner]

Good morning oilers - that's been a lot to digest...

I found the 36 hour no more post from Sue:

Thanks again - I either missed it, or assimilated it unconsciously so much so it was making me think I didn't need to do the 36hrs, without understanding why I was thinking that . ... clearer now .

No I don't shake it or stir it while in the oven. Ill give it a short stir before I drain the oil off.

Also I keep all the oil soaked plant material in the fridge (freezer for long term storage) and use it in baking, on salads, in soup and sometime I just eat it. 1/4 teaspoon or so. I like the nutty taste. There is no lost or wasted cannabinoids of significance.

One reason I do small batches is storing the dry cannabis is easy but storing the oil and leftover you need to be concerned with mold. I make enough for 2 to 3 weeks. Ive never has a mold problem in that timeframe.

This makes heaps of sense for my purposes, (a small amount of herb, no funky appliances or double boiler and minimal physical demand!) thanks for elaborating!!

What I have learned is that there are many many recipes for decarbing and extraction of terpenes and cannabinoids out there. Ive tried quite a few. There is no 'best method' but many acceptable processes.

Ive settled on the method described because its great for small batches, its simple, and easy. Its healthy because all the components are edible and good for you. There is no waste.

And I cant really make a mistake that ruins the plant material that I have. Way too hot and/or far too long is easily avoided.

Enough infomercial lol.

This pretty much sums it up for me. We fuss so much about getting a complete decarb, and the more I study cannabinoids and the ECS the more I realize that a well-rounded cannabinoid profile in the oil is a good thing. THCa has been identified as a major contributor to reducing inflammation. That sealed it for me. I'm certain that as we learn more about cannabinoids and their interaction with terpenes we'll come to the conclusion that the best way to use cannabis for healing potential is to ingest it raw.

It's also occured to me as I do hot oil baths and discover how much of my "potent" oils were nowhere near complete decarb that it takes far less THC to be effective than we realize. So in my opinion we can stop all that fussing, find a method that gives us the effects we seek with the least amount of stress, and stick with it.

Of course, we'll keep playing around because there'll be times when the total decarb is what we want. But for the most part it appears that the more diversified cannabinoid load may be the most beneficial for the greatest number of patients.

This has ended up being really helpful discussion - thanks SweetSue and Oldbear. It's actually clarified a whole more for me .. and made me realise I've absorbed plenty, I just missed a thing here n there & got a bit confuzzled. I'm going to take the plunge today with Oldbear's method. Smaller batches is good.

Phew .

.

 

[Amy Gardner]

LVM, I appreciate your concerted effort to instruct me, only I had trouble really following everything, plus alcohol extractions, double boilers etc. is all out of the question for me at this stage.

Also, I am compelled to let you know that this:

DEAR GIRLLLL
DO
NOT


CHOP UP YOUR WEED INTO ANYTHING YOU CANT/DONT WONT/FILTER/STRAIN OUT LATER//
WE WANT THE STUFF ON THE LEAF/MOSTLY/ THE TRICHOMES FULL OF T HC/CBX x is everything////

pretty much constitutes yelling at someone in chat room internet speak (AFAIK). So you might want to avoid using capitals like that in future.

And - I've never been called 'girl' in such a fashion. Please don't do that.

 

[daddyherb]

Thanks OldBear! Yes we are very familiar with Charlotte's Web. That is what motivated our desire to treat our daughter with medicinal cannabis almost two years ago now. My daughter (Abigail) participated in a research study of a lab-developed CBD oil, and was seizure free after a couple months! Unfortunately, the big pharmaceutical company sponsoring the research left us high-and-dry once they had the data they needed to go the FDA for approval. Gave us 2 weeks to find a contingency plan or ween her off the medicine.

In our state (New Jersey), it's impossible to get a card to buy medicinal medicine in two weeks, so we were screwed. My daughter ended up in the hospital a month off the medicine because she had a full blown tonic clonic seizure (first ever) - she went completely limp in my arms. Until then, she had only had myoclonic and absent seizures. Now we have a card though, and can go to a dispensary to purchase medical cannabis (up to 2 oz. a month).

The neurologist we've been working with suggested we keep an open mind regarding THC because other parents (who only wanted to treat with CBD) reported great benefits of strains with THC as well as CBD. The dispensary we use has a "Menu" (I can scan it, and attach it if someone can tell me how??) Each strain is lab tested at the dispensary, and provides percentages for each compound in each plant. They even break down what the primary medicinal benefits are for each strain (i.e. seizures, neuropothy, chronic pain, etc.).

This is our second month. In the first month and a half, we tried strain which was "Extracts" (already in an oil - MCT Oil) with a 10:1 ration of THC:CBD with 50% THC. The two methods we used were an oil (Already prepared at the dispensary, very thick like honey) & Lozenges (like a waxy candy, but supposedly very gross tasting). We tried that for about three weeks, and it made my daughter very spacey and sleepy until we dilluted it down quite a bit with additional MCT oil.

Then we tried a Hybrid strain of Indica & Sativa for three weeks (.551% THCA, 11.7% CBDA, and .151% CBGA) - I'm typing this straight from the menu (admittedly, I have no idea what "THCA, CBDA, or CBGA" are - I just tried what the girl told me to try at the dispensary). This was purchased as buds, and I made our own oil using a recipe the girl at the dispensary gave me (break up, bake in the oven at 250 degrees for 1-hour, put in magical butter machine for 2 hours at 130 degrees with 1 cup of MCT Oil). She actually seems to be very irritable on this strain, and does not sleep through the night.

Here's some specific things I've learned/ questions I've come up with from my short experience thus far:
1. I want to try two different medicines this time around (one sativa for daytime use & one indica for nighttime use). Is that a crazy idea?
2. I would like to make my own "hybrid" for each of these, using a 1/2 oz. of the CBD strain (second strain mentioned above), mixed with a strain higher in THC (sativa for day/ indica for night). Is there anything I need to know about mixing strains, or should I avoid doing that for any reason?
3. I originally came to the 420 boards to make sure I'm making the oil the right way to ensure she is getting all the medicinal benefits of the plant. I'm now torn between making the same recipe the girl at the dispensary gave me versus something like this..??:
Magical Butter 2 Review - Making Concentrated Cannabis Oil with MB2 Machine
4. I have NO idea what decarbalization means, or if it's even something I need to know..??
5. Do I need to "activate" the ingredients in the plant before using the magical butter machine, or does the machine do that for me?
6. Is there a best way to do that?
7. To your point on bioavailability, I think I've actually learned enough on SweetSue's Study Hall regarding green tea, mangos, and "distracting the liver" to have a handle on this for my daughter's dosing.
8. Dosage Plan... Here's the major hurdle in my opinion. I'm a federal employee, so I have NO way to test the medicine I'm giving her beforehand. As a father, this really bugs me. I want to know what it tastes like, what it does to me, etc, but I can't do that without risking my job unfortunately. I have NO idea how to give her the medicine, at what dose, and how often to give her the optimal benefits while also not wasting the medicine (it's obviously not cheap).

Again, I appreciate the help/feedback/advise SO MUCH! If I need to take this discussion elsewhere, or if I'm taking the "Study Hall" off topic, please say so. I will gladly comply.

 

[Amy Gardner]

Hi daddy herb .,

I totally don't think you're off topic - far from it! I would think you're right in the ballpark of what these threads are for (correct me if I'm wrong Sue!)

Two of your questions actually come together: yes you need to activate the herb and this is what decarboxylation is, the conversion of canabinoids in the herb (to their 'active' versions, I think). One way this occurs is through heat. Some folks do it with dry herb in the oven before infusing in oil and others do a straight into the oil process which decarb sand infused in one go. (I'm about to do this for the 3rd time - first 2 have been ok).

I know SweetSue has a great way of explaining how to work out the ideal dose and I'm sure she will chime in for you there (or I'll post back if I find it to link to). I know it has to do with starting super low, and slowly titrating up until the effects of the THC are more than desired (so this would be the top spacey and sleepy states you felt your daughter had) and then the ideal dose is found by stepping it back a notch from there. It can be tricky if the source of the medicine changes because the potency will change as well.

Also - I'm pretty sure you'd do best with a 1:1 or 2:1 CBD:THC strain. So the CBD is strong but you get some THC benefit in there too without it being overwhelming.

Hope that helps - I'm still an apprentice at all this and am still working out my dosing as have found regular strains give me oil with more THC than I want during the day (good for sleep tho). About to make up my first batch from a 2:1 CBD:THC plant.

From memory what Sue usually says is that medicinally you want high CBD coupled with as much THC as the person can comfortably tolerate.

I don't think indica/Sativa will effect the oil so much, maybe I'm wrong...(I'm sure I read recently someone talking about how that doesn't effect oil)

...but I think the CBD:THC ratio of the herb is more important.

.

Oh - and big warm welcome to 420mag!! ..

When you're here for such pressing medical reasons it can be overwhelming at first. It's very difficult and time consuming to trawl threads seeking out the relevant info. But you sound like you're doing an awesome job already and are now refining an approach. Just ask and there will nearly always be someone able to assist and guide you .

 

[LVMarc42]

amy....no insult intended.nor desired

so sorry for any mid step by me.

LVM, I appreciate your concerted effort to instruct me, only I had trouble really following everything, plus alcohol extractions, double boilers etc. is all out of the question for me at this stage.

Also, I am compelled to let you know that this:



pretty much constitutes yelling at someone in chat room internet speak (AFAIK). So you might want to avoid using capitals like that in future.

And - I’ve never been called ‘girl’ in such a fashion. Please don’t do that.

 

[Amy Gardner]

so sorry for any mid step by me.

No insult taken, just a protocol thing .. Thanks for acknowledging.

.

 

[SweetSue]

so sorry for any mid step by me.

No insult taken, just a protocol thing .. Thanks for acknowledging.

.

Thank you both for being so kind to each other.

 

[SweetSue]

Hello daddyherb. It's a bit overwhelming at first, isn't it? You'll be amazed at how quickly you'll pick it up now that you've reached out. Much of the information you'll be accumulating is scattered all around the site. I do have a thread geared to answering many of the basic questions. It'll save you a lot of running around through our virtual halls.

The Basic Links For Patients and Caregivers

I'm going to encourage you to avoid taxing yourself trying to read everything before you come to us with questions. Ask questions. I assure you, no one will come back with an attitude other than love and helpfulness. We live to answer questions.

So, autism and epilepsy. Quite the challenge. Before I begin I wanted to share that there's a well-known nurse practitioner in NM that discovered almost by accident that a magnesium supplement positively impacts autism in ways no one dreamed possible. I'd be looking into something for your daughter. There's a spray on the market that's atomized. I'm sure there's more than one. It's a simple way to make a significant difference in Abigail's experience.

From data available, it appears that you're looking for a ratio of CBD to THC somewhere between 8:1 and 20:1. THC is a necessary component for many epileptics. Even a tiny bit of THC will dramatically improve the potency of the CBD in the formulation.

Now, let's see about the questions.

Thanks OldBear! Yes we are very familiar with Charlotte's Web. That is what motivated our desire to treat our daughter with medicinal cannabis almost two years ago now. My daughter (Abigail) participated in a research study of a lab-developed CBD oil, and was seizure free after a couple months! Unfortunately, the big pharmaceutical company sponsoring the research left us high-and-dry once they had the data they needed to go the FDA for approval. Gave us 2 weeks to find a contingency plan or ween her off the medicine.

In our state (New Jersey), it's impossible to get a card to buy medicinal medicine in two weeks, so we were screwed. My daughter ended up in the hospital a month off the medicine because she had a full blown tonic clonic seizure (first ever) - she went completely limp in my arms. Until then, she had only had myoclonic and absent seizures. Now we have a card though, and can go to a dispensary to purchase medical cannabis (up to 2 oz. a month).

This hurt to read. It gets better. I assure you.

The neurologist we've been working with suggested we keep an open mind regarding THC because other parents (who only wanted to treat with CBD) reported great benefits of strains with THC as well as CBD. The dispensary we use has a "Menu" (I can scan it, and attach it if someone can tell me how??) Each strain is lab tested at the dispensary, and provides percentages for each compound in each plant. They even break down what the primary medicinal benefits are for each strain (i.e. seizures, neuropothy, chronic pain, etc.).

Does her neurologist have any experience with cannabinoid therapies?

This is our second month. In the first month and a half, we tried strain which was "Extracts" (already in an oil - MCT Oil) with a 10:1 ration of THC:CBD with 50% THC. The two methods we used were an oil (Already prepared at the dispensary, very thick like honey) & Lozenges (like a waxy candy, but supposedly very gross tasting). We tried that for about three weeks, and it made my daughter very spacey and sleepy until we dilluted it down quite a bit with additional MCT oil.

Then we tried a Hybrid strain of Indica & Sativa for three weeks (.551% THCA, 11.7% CBDA, and .151% CBGA) - I'm typing this straight from the menu (admittedly, I have no idea what "THCA, CBDA, or CBGA" are - I just tried what the girl told me to try at the dispensary). This was purchased as buds, and I made our own oil using a recipe the girl at the dispensary gave me (break up, bake in the oven at 250 degrees for 1-hour, put in magical butter machine for 2 hours at 130 degrees with 1 cup of MCT Oil). She actually seems to be very irritable on this strain, and does not sleep through the night.

You're doing an excellent job of trial-and-error, which is the only way to get this right. Take solace in knowing that you can't hurt Abigail. Every dose is adding cannabinoids to the system, and they're doing their job even as you refine the regimen and dose levels. Made me right proud to read that, and I don't even know you all that well yet.

How are are you dosing her now?

Here's some specific things I've learned/ questions I've come up with from my short experience thus far:
1. I want to try two different medicines this time around (one sativa for daytime use & one indica for nighttime use). Is that a crazy idea?

This is actually advised. See? You're catching on already.

2. I would like to make my own "hybrid" for each of these, using a 1/2 oz. of the CBD strain (second strain mentioned above), mixed with a strain higher in THC (sativa for day/ indica for night). Is there anything I need to know about mixing strains, or should I avoid doing that for any reason?

Another of those things we recommend. When you mix chemovars (sorry, I'm a stickler for this one; there are no strains in botany) you come away with a more diversified cannabinoid and terpene profile. This can only be a good thing IMO.

3. I originally came to the 420 boards to make sure I'm making the oil the right way to ensure she is getting all the medicinal benefits of the plant. I'm now torn between making the same recipe the girl at the dispensary gave me versus something like this..??:
Magical Butter 2 Review - Making Concentrated Cannabis Oil with MB2 Machine

This particular thread explains how to make concentrated cannabis oil (CCO) in the MB2, and that's a practice we don't recommend. It's too easy to burn the oil in this machine, and as you've discovered, there isn't anything cheap about acquiring these medications. We feel it's too big a risk.

The MB2 is excellent for making infused butter or infused oils. We have a couple other recipes that may be more of a benefit to you. I'm more a fan of an infused oil than I am of a concentrated oil made with solvents that require purging. Many children with seizures controlling them with cannabis are using tinctures. We can research this. It may be possible to use an infused oil instead. I can't think of a good reason why this would present problems.

4. I have NO idea what decarbalization means, or if it's even something I need to know..??

The acid cannabinoids (think raw), the ones listed with an "a" or "A" at the end (THCa, CBDa, etc), need to be decarboxylated before they become what we call the natural cannabinoids - THC, CBD, CBG, etc. All this means is we've used heat or time, or a combination of both to get the molecules to release the CO2 attached to the cannabinoids. The method involves releasing the carbon atoms from the carbon chain, thus the name "decarboxylation."

In the most basic terms, it's what we do to activate the THC and CBD, so they can perform the signalling we desire to create a more even endocannabinoid tone, which supports health and wholeness.

5. Do I need to "activate" the ingredients in the plant before using the magical butter machine, or does the machine do that for me?
6. Is there a best way to do that?

You'll need to decarb before you use the MB2.


Decarb 101
Break up the buds loosely. With the MB2 you don't need to break them up very small. Place them on a baking tray or dish that'll fit into a roasting bag and place it in the oven, heated to 235 degrees. Cook for 110 minutes. Remove from the oven and cool completely before you open the bag. I toss mine in the freezer for an hour to chill it all down quickly.

Now it's decarbed and ready to add to the oil in the MB2. Most of us use the 8-Hr setting instead of the manufacturer's recommended 2 hours.

7. To your point on bioavailability, I think I've actually learned enough on SweetSue's Study Hall regarding green tea, mangos, and "distracting the liver" to have a handle on this for my daughter's dosing.

I like to say I have no ego, but it sat up and smiled at reading this.

8. Dosage Plan... Here's the major hurdle in my opinion. I'm a federal employee, so I have NO way to test the medicine I'm giving her beforehand. As a father, this really bugs me. I want to know what it tastes like, what it does to me, etc, but I can't do that without risking my job unfortunately. I have NO idea how to give her the medicine, at what dose, and how often to give her the optimal benefits while also not wasting the medicine (it's obviously not cheap).

I hear you. I grow for my daughter, and many here grow for their children. I've yet to meet a parent among us that was entirely comfortable with this process. We'd all rather there be trained professionals we could call on, but that's not the case yet. Dosing.......

I'm gonna be honest with you. Working with the parent of a child with seizure disorder causes others to run the other way, but you're lucky, because this room has no fear. There is no set pattern for treating an epileptic child. The top physicians in the field tell us when you've treated one epileptic child with cannabis, you've treated one child. The next one will be completely different. There are patterns of treatment we can explore, but it's going to be trial and error.

Did anyone give you any training on starting a new patient, or were you sent out completely on your own? You're already two months in, so we can't call her new to cannabis. Your first task is to find the cannabinoid ratios and terpene profile that would be most beneficial to Abigail. Do the dispensaries give you the terpene profiles of the oils they sell?

I'll pull out my notes and see what I have on treating pediatric seizures. We'll put our heads together and work something out that you'll be comfortable with. I do know that THCa has become one of the cannabinoids finding its way into seizure treatment. There are many, many options to pursue. It'll take patience and courage, but I'm up to it if you are.

Understand that no one's a professional here. We all came to cannabis for our own reasons, and what we found in this plant has made such an impact on our lives that we're compelled to help others. If you're comfortable with that we'll do everything we can to help you.

Again, I appreciate the help/feedback/advise SO MUCH! If I need to take this discussion elsewhere, or if I'm taking the "Study Hall" off topic, please say so. I will gladly comply.

You came to the right room. We brainstorm here, and often we come up with some interesting ideas. Just so you know, nothing is off-topic in this study hall. We're here to be of assistance in any way we can.

We know this is a lot to take in. I'll leave you with the thought that we're not trying to heal Abigail. Her ECS will do that. We're looking for the formulation and dose that will bring her the relief her body needs so it can get back to homeostasis. Relief is the name of this game. We believe cannabis can offer relief in a way nothing else can, without dangerous side effects.

By the way, welcome to the family you didn't know you had.

 

[Oldbear]

@ Daddyherb

I found this profile this am:

AC/DC(ACDC)

Sativa (dominant) X Indica ***HIGH CBD***
*****CBD when mixed with HIGH THC strains can take away the psychotropic effects of the THC but not the medical effects.
Terpenes – Myrcene
Parents – MK Ultra (Indica) X G13 Haze (Hybrid)
Scents – Earthy, Citrus, Sweet
Results – THCA – 0.551% CBDA – 11.70% CBGA – 0.151%
Effects – Relaxed, Focused, Happy, Uplifted, Euphoric
Conditions – High CBD, Non-psychotropic, Good for Children, Seizure Disorders, Multiple Sclerosis, Spasms, Gastrointestinal Distress, Anxiety, Chronic Pain, Stress, Inflammation, Depression

Sounds like this is what you have been using from the dispensary.

You are more advanced in Abigail's cannabis therapy than I realized. This is good!

I have found that the development of a dosage plan requires some structure. You need to know where you are before you start changing too many variables.

So for the AC/DC (I'm pretty sure that's what you have been using):
How does she take it?
How much?
How often?

You have mentioned being irritable and not sleeping through the night. Most importantly, what is this doing for the seizures?

The original CBD oil program could you please answer the same questions?

Also have you ever tried CBD made from hemp? If yes, what were the results?

Enough questions for now. I'm working on a recipe for Abigail.

 

[daddyherb]

It'll save you a lot of running around through our virtual halls.

The Basic Links For Patients and Caregivers

Thank you SO much! This is exactly what I needed! I'll start reading through all of this, but I want to get some questions out first in hopes to get a response faster (I've got 2 1/2 Oz. in my cabinet that is calling my name, but I don't want to make the medicine until I feel confident I have a solid plan).

Does her neurologist have any experience with cannabinoid therapies?

Unfortunately, no. In New Jersey, the doctor does not really have the ability to work that closely with the patient. There's select number of doctors that are on the "state registry" to legally prescribe the medicine. Our doctor is very much in favor of removing the roadblocks, and was in favor of us trying the medicine for our daughter, but he admittedly knows very little about the science of dosing, plant profiles, etc. That part is up to us to figure out.

How are are you dosing her now?

Currently she's getting a High CBD Strain (THCA – 0.551% CBDA – 11.70% CBGA – 0.151%) which I converted to an oil (MCT Oil). I decarbed it in the oven (baking sheet covered with aluminum foil) at 250 for 1 hour.
We used 1/4 Oz. of cannabis to 2 cups of MCT oil, and then cooked that in the Magical Butter Machine for 2 hours at 130 Degrees.
We give her a 1/2 tsp. twice daily.

When you mix chemovars (sorry, I'm a stickler for this one; there are no strains in botany) you come away with a more diversified cannabinoid and terpene profile. This can only be a good thing IMO.

I'm sorry, but I have NO idea what this means LOL...
One thing I definitely need to figure out is if I'm using the right measurements for my "makeshift hybrid strains" - Here's what I planned to do, but I'm afraid this may be closer to a 1:1 or 2:1 ration that 8:1 - 20:1..??
Could really use some help with this.
Here's what my plan was:

For Daytime Use:
1/2 Oz. of "ACDC" (Hybrid Sativa/Indica Strain with .551% THC, 11.7% CBDA, .151% CBGA - Terpenes: Myrcene), mixed with 1/4 Oz. of "Silver Tip" (Sativa Strain with 18.05% THCA, .073% CBDA, 1.457% CBGA - Terpenes: Pinene, Linalool).
I'll now decarb this at your recommended time and temperature, and run it in the Magical Butter Machine (at what time & tempurature??)... Then dose at... ??

For Nighttime Use:
1/2 Oz. of "ACDC" (Hybrid Sativa/Indica Strain with .551% THC, 11.7% CBDA, .151% CBGA - Terpenes: Myrcene), mixed with 1/4 Oz. of "Blueberry" (Indica Strain with 19.47% THCA, .036% CBDA, .193% CBGA - Terpenes: Caryophyllene, Linalool, Pinene, Myrcene)
I'll now decarb this at your recommended time and temperature, and run it in the Magical Butter Machine (at what time & tempurature??)... Then dose at... ???

This particular thread explains how to make concentrated cannabis oil (CCO) in the MB2, and that's a practice we don't recommend. It's too easy to burn the oil in this machine, and as you've discovered, there isn't anything cheap about acquiring these medications. We feel it's too big a risk.

Thank you for this. This is exactly the type of stuff I came here for. So glad I haven't made the next batch of medicine yet!

Many children with seizures controlling them with cannabis are using tinctures. We can research this. It may be possible to use an infused oil instead. I can't think of a good reason why this would present problems.

This is probably the biggest question I need to sort out right now. I still do not know what a "tincture" is (assuming I may get that answered once I go through your Basic Links for Caregivers thread. I'm assuming the recipe that I followed is an "infused oil?" Should I stick with using the oil, or switch to a tincture? Also, we just mix the oil into a cup of Chamomile Team with a little lemon and honey. Is there a more preferred method? In between the lips and gums??

The acid cannabinoids (think raw), the ones listed with an "a" or "A" at the end (THCa, CBDa, etc), need to be decarboxylated before they become what we call the natural cannabinoids - THC, CBD, CBG, etc. All this means is we've used heat or time, or a combination of both to get the molecules to release the CO2 attached to the cannabinoids. The method involves releasing the carbon atoms from the carbon chain, thus the name "decarboxylation."

This is fantastic! You are definitely gifted in breaking the science down to a laymen like myself! I actually feel like I understand this perfectly now. Thank you

Did anyone give you any training on starting a new patient, or were you sent out completely on your own? You're already two months in, so we can't call her new to cannabis. Your first task is to find the cannabinoid ratios and terpene profile that would be most beneficial to Abigail. Do the dispensaries give you the terpene profiles of the oils they sell?

As mentioned before, the doctor, while a fan of the medicinal benefits of cannabis was not very helpful with much else. The dispensary staff are very helpful, but not quite as knowledgeable about the intricacies that are discussed here. I wouldn't have even thought to check if the dispensary had information about the terpene profiles of their oils, but they do provide some very detailed information on their website: CSATC - Compassionate Sciences Alternative Treatment Center - New Jersey Medical Marijuana Dispensary, 111 Coolidge Avenue, Bellmawr, NJ 08031 (856) 933-8700

I'll pull out my notes and see what I have on treating pediatric seizures. We'll put our heads together and work something out that you'll be comfortable with. I do know that THCa has become one of the cannabinoids finding its way into seizure treatment. There are many, many options to pursue. It'll take patience and courage, but I'm up to it if you are.

Understand that no one's a professional here. We all came to cannabis for our own reasons, and what we found in this plant has made such an impact on our lives that we're compelled to help others. If you're comfortable with that we'll do everything we can to help you.

Thank you SO much SweetSue! You've definitely eased some of my anxiety about all of this!