- Thread starter
- #21
That's some vigorous waving Shed, I am glad to see you're feeling improved!
Stunger's Organic Soil Stealth Balcony: Landrace Mulanje & Other Sativas
- Thread starter Stunger
- Start date
- Thread starter
- #22
General Update
Hello, and wee update. Not a lot to show at this early stage. I up-potted the 2 Mulanje plants into their final pots 3 days ago. 3 days prior to up-potting I watered the final pots with worm wee, humic and fulvic acids, fish hydrolysate, kelp concentrate, and the following 2 days gave some additional watering in an attempt to ensure the soil of the whole pot didn't have dry patches. I probably could've/should've up-potted a week earlier as I'd say they would have been ready for it then.
Germination time line
I forgot to state in my initial post when it was that I first kicked off soaking the seeds of the current 4 plants...
11 Oct 2021 - Mulanje (initially were 3, but a slug ate 1, so 2 surviving plants)
20 Nov 2021 - Purple Honduras/Panama x Purple Honduras
20 Nov 2021 - Malawi/Ethiopian x Mulanje
Seedlings
The first of the Mulanje getting up-potted. No circling roots just lots of air pruned ones.
In their final pots
Thanks for dropping by. Keep safe and well everyone!
Hello, and wee update. Not a lot to show at this early stage. I up-potted the 2 Mulanje plants into their final pots 3 days ago. 3 days prior to up-potting I watered the final pots with worm wee, humic and fulvic acids, fish hydrolysate, kelp concentrate, and the following 2 days gave some additional watering in an attempt to ensure the soil of the whole pot didn't have dry patches. I probably could've/should've up-potted a week earlier as I'd say they would have been ready for it then.
Germination time line
I forgot to state in my initial post when it was that I first kicked off soaking the seeds of the current 4 plants...
11 Oct 2021 - Mulanje (initially were 3, but a slug ate 1, so 2 surviving plants)
20 Nov 2021 - Purple Honduras/Panama x Purple Honduras
20 Nov 2021 - Malawi/Ethiopian x Mulanje
Seedlings
The first of the Mulanje getting up-potted. No circling roots just lots of air pruned ones.
In their final pots
Thanks for dropping by. Keep safe and well everyone!
Looks like we're on our way to me!
SparkNShred
Well-Known Member
What could be cooler than a landrace sativa balcony grow! This is going to be great.
Beauties are looking great!
tangwena
Well-Known Member
Hoping for an all girl crew man.
Great job keeping them low, they look sturdy and healthy. They are starting to show more of a sativa leaf now.
Emeraldo
Well-Known Member
Beautiful plants, Stunger!
Your experiences with germination time in an outdoor grow sound a lot like mine. Along with knowing how much weed you want or need at the end of the grow, I guess the key is deciding how much veg time the plants will need before flowering starts. I've tried early germination (say mid-March to mid-April here "up over" -- if I can put it that way) as well as late germination, as late as mid-July, as I did with the 2018 Mexican Sativa which is not a late-flowering strain but went into November that year, very uplifting cerebral effect. I germinated an S-1 seed from that same plant in early May this year and she was heavy with dead-ripe bud by October 1, and is a favorite sleep aid now. I am learning to balance germination time with harvest time, hehe.
#3 Purple Honduras/PanamaxPurple Honduras
Honduran sativa with purple Colombian phenotype combined with Panama sativa and re-crossed to a Purple Honduras. Said to be initially, clean, energetic, euphoric, and leading on to dreamy, psychedelic, blissful.
#4 Malawi/Ethiopian
Ethiopian and African strains can be high in THCV, although I cannot confirm that for what I am growing, but nonetheless it is interesting to note. This has been described as strong, euphoric, laughing grass, for which I think there will often be times when that could be my cup of tea.
Just wondering, seeing this cross info, if you know more about the breeding objective of back-crossing two ACE strains Purple Honduras/Panama x Purple Honduras and what attributes of each of those strains your friend was trying to strengthen. Looking for an earlier harvest time? Maybe none, I would guess, since this cross is also the obvious way of breeding some "regular" seeds from the feminized PH/Panama (which otherwise would be available only as S-1 from a female, and not as stable genetically). The same might have been the idea with teh Malawi/Ethiopian x Mulanje. Tell me please if I am totally off base there.
Thanks for the great photos and comments on your sativa grow.
Be well
- Thread starter
- #29
Thanks Shed, I'm trying to make a start!
Cheers Spark, I'll be hoping so too.
Thanks Otter.
You and me both Tang!
Thanks stinker, hopefully they soon settle in to their new final pots and do their thing.
Cheers Emeraldo, it is interesting the difference you found between germination starts. I had not really considered if plants would flower earlier or later depending on when they were germinated, outdoors anyway. Unless you can run a whole bunch of comparisons and controls it is tricky to tell. When I only grow once a year and small numbers I'm just mostly thankful when there is a good outcome!
The short answer is I don't know. I think your guess is right, that it was to make use of the genetics and make some seeds. I understand that the male used was outstanding. It is so nice to be growing again, I'm looking forward to it!
Emeraldo
Well-Known Member
Ok, I guess it can be tricky. Maybe my theory seems speculative, but if you're interested, here are my assumptions about the impact of germination time on flowering for photoperiods:
1. The plants need to reach maturity in order to flower, and you control the point at which plant reaches maturity and starts to flower by how long before solstice you germinate.
2. Each strain also has it's own flowering time genetically programmed in, and all things being equal each plant of that strain will need that amount of flowering time regardless of when in the plant's life flowering is induced, so if a sativa needs 10 weeks of flowering to reach ripeness, it will take 10 weeks no matter when flowering starts, assuming it doesn't get into very cold, snowy weather.
3. Flowering time can start only after the days begin to shorten after the summer solstice.
4. After solstice, a plant that is not yet mature and cannot flower yet will wait until it is mature enough and then flower.
5. A plant that is mature at or before summer solstice will start to flower as soon as possible after solstice, usually taking a few weeks to show signs of flowering.
All variables being equal, for a plant that was germinated in May and needs say 6 weeks to maturity, flowering can start as early as July if it is genetically predisposed to early or quick flowering. For an identical plant that was germinated in mid-July, flowering cannot start until maturity, which in that case is likely to be late August or early September.
To get the plants flowering as soon as possible while the weather is cooperating, my thought is to germinate with time to maturity planned in, say 6 to 8 weeks before solstice. In "up-over" that is first week of May at the latest. I am not sure what downsides there are to very early germination, maybe lengthier exposure to pests or sudden Springtime freezes. Upsides are, as you mention, getting a good strong base for your plant, adding work and weight and pruning for stealth as the branches continually creep higher.
- Thread starter
- #31
It is a good well thought out theory, it sounds very plausible. I wondered on the flowering time, is that genetically fixed regardless of other variables, or is there some level of adaptability of the plant to hasten or cruise in it's flowering phase based on the hours of sunshine or some other environmental variable? Our Autumn starts very summery, but then turns when all warm sunny days are gone. I am hoping of these plants that are female that their flowering may speed up as our Winter approaches (there's hope for you!). I am interested in seeing what happens, altho like you I am expecting that they will go for a long time regardless.
I guess I haven't considered that myself because around when the Spring weather turns positive I look to germinate, but if
Emeraldo
Well-Known Member
I came out with that theory only because I had that experience this year. I grew a seed from a prior grow, basically the "identical" plant in the example: my Mexican Sativa from 2018, and now her offspring in 2021. The facts are as in the example.
Otherwise, I can't imagine that I would have been that speculative (though that too is speculation
).
Turning to your grow, if I may apply my theory now, your seedlings germinated on October 11 were likely be mature (biologically capable of flowering) by the end of November. So when the "down under" solstice hits around December 21, they are ready to go. As for the November 20 germinations, maturity in early January so they will hit the ground running after the daylength has already started shortening.
So the next question is: How many days in flowering do your strains need?
Your sativa strains this year are definitely long and late-flowering sativas. I mentioned I am going to grow some ACE haze strains next year, and in that connection I read up a bit on the ACE strains.
On seedfinder . eu I saw that ACE's "Purple Honduras Haze" has a flowering time of about 112 days (16 weeks). Yours is crossed with ACE's "Panama" which has an expected flowering of 74 days. If you have "Panama" genetics (and not "Panama Haze" = 102 days), then I would be tempted to say your flowering will be somewhere between the two, like 90 or 95, maybe? But it's really impossible to say, it may be controlled by a dominant gene. I think it's likely your friend crossed the two to see if a shorter flowering time would result, and it maybe it will.
ACE's "Malawi" only needs about 88 days (12.5 weeks). Pretty quick-flowering for ACE, actually, hehe, if you can call that quick.
So I am really looking forward to watching how your sativas flower, Stunger. We are on the same page here.
Cheers,
Emeraldo
Otherwise, I can't imagine that I would have been that speculative (though that too is speculation
). Turning to your grow, if I may apply my theory now, your seedlings germinated on October 11 were likely be mature (biologically capable of flowering) by the end of November. So when the "down under" solstice hits around December 21, they are ready to go. As for the November 20 germinations, maturity in early January so they will hit the ground running after the daylength has already started shortening.
So the next question is: How many days in flowering do your strains need?
Your sativa strains this year are definitely long and late-flowering sativas. I mentioned I am going to grow some ACE haze strains next year, and in that connection I read up a bit on the ACE strains.
On seedfinder . eu I saw that ACE's "Purple Honduras Haze" has a flowering time of about 112 days (16 weeks). Yours is crossed with ACE's "Panama" which has an expected flowering of 74 days. If you have "Panama" genetics (and not "Panama Haze" = 102 days), then I would be tempted to say your flowering will be somewhere between the two, like 90 or 95, maybe? But it's really impossible to say, it may be controlled by a dominant gene. I think it's likely your friend crossed the two to see if a shorter flowering time would result, and it maybe it will.
ACE's "Malawi" only needs about 88 days (12.5 weeks). Pretty quick-flowering for ACE, actually, hehe, if you can call that quick.
So I am really looking forward to watching how your sativas flower, Stunger. We are on the same page here.
Cheers,
Emeraldo
Emeraldo
Well-Known Member
Stunger, don't want to hijack your thread but I found something that bears on your grow and follows up on my posts here. I looked into Greg Green's Cannabis Breeder's Bible, page 183, where he lists the typical flowering times for the broad categories indica, mostly indica, indica/sativa, etc. I was wondering if the flowering time of a cross would be just the average between the crossed strains or would one of the strains dominate in that regard.
Happily, Green thinks is it the mean (or middle point) between the two. He writes: "Breeders have noted that there is probably no specific gene for flowering times and that it is more likely the result of a number of gene combinations. Figuring the mean between the parents' flowering times is the best way to guess flowering times in the offspring. If the offspring lean more in the direction of one parent's physiognomy, then it is quite likely that the flowering time will stray from the mean in that direction too. "
Purple Honduras/Panamax Purple Honduras
I guess this means Purple Honduras Haze X Panama and back-crossed with Purple Honduras Haze, so... great choice! It is gonna be great! So definitely heavier on the Purple Honduras Haze side, which ultimately, taking the "mean" might mean ripeness after roughly 14 or 15 weeks of flowering (definitely somewhere between 12 and 16 weeks)? Ready for harvest sometime in mid- to late-April?
It's interesting to read his last comments the cross leaning to one parent's side or the other. If your plants look more like Panama, maybe you'll have shorter flowering time than with a straight pure Purple Honduras Haze. It's also interesting that your friend chose to back cross with regular Purple Honduras Haze (obviously to get regular seeds from the initial feminized cross) but this might reintroduce and strengthen the longer flowering genes.
So what is your weather like in late April into May? I hope you won't be harvesting in the snow like I was two years ago with the Arjan's Haze #1! I must say that haze turned out wonderfully and I still have a little of it in the jar.
P.S.: Incidentally, one of the ACE strains I could grow is Oldtimer's Haze, with a flowering time of 140 days (20 weeks), which would take me into late December. After my move to a cooler climate (away from California) I realized I will probably never be able to grow this strain to complete ripeness outdoors here. In fact, OT Haze prolly wouldn't be happy even in California! But since male plants flower earlier than the females, it might be possible to get pollen early from a male and pollinate an earlier flowering strain, getting at least a cross with the Oldtimer. Sort of similar to what your friend might have done with the Purple Honduras Haze...
Happily, Green thinks is it the mean (or middle point) between the two. He writes: "Breeders have noted that there is probably no specific gene for flowering times and that it is more likely the result of a number of gene combinations. Figuring the mean between the parents' flowering times is the best way to guess flowering times in the offspring. If the offspring lean more in the direction of one parent's physiognomy, then it is quite likely that the flowering time will stray from the mean in that direction too. "
Purple Honduras/Panama
x Purple HondurasI guess this means Purple Honduras Haze X Panama and back-crossed with Purple Honduras Haze, so... great choice! It is gonna be great! So definitely heavier on the Purple Honduras Haze side, which ultimately, taking the "mean" might mean ripeness after roughly 14 or 15 weeks of flowering (definitely somewhere between 12 and 16 weeks)? Ready for harvest sometime in mid- to late-April?It's interesting to read his last comments the cross leaning to one parent's side or the other. If your plants look more like Panama, maybe you'll have shorter flowering time than with a straight pure Purple Honduras Haze. It's also interesting that your friend chose to back cross with regular Purple Honduras Haze (obviously to get regular seeds from the initial feminized cross) but this might reintroduce and strengthen the longer flowering genes.
So what is your weather like in late April into May? I hope you won't be harvesting in the snow like I was two years ago with the Arjan's Haze #1! I must say that haze turned out wonderfully and I still have a little of it in the jar.
P.S.: Incidentally, one of the ACE strains I could grow is Oldtimer's Haze, with a flowering time of 140 days (20 weeks), which would take me into late December. After my move to a cooler climate (away from California) I realized I will probably never be able to grow this strain to complete ripeness outdoors here. In fact, OT Haze prolly wouldn't be happy even in California! But since male plants flower earlier than the females, it might be possible to get pollen early from a male and pollinate an earlier flowering strain, getting at least a cross with the Oldtimer. Sort of similar to what your friend might have done with the Purple Honduras Haze...
- Thread starter
- #34
No worries, thanks for sharing, flowering times are often a big question mark to plan. Personally, I have found that generally the plants I've grown take longer than the breeder notes suggest.
That sounds reasonable. Of course nature does sometimes surprise by not always following our expectations, but at the end of the day we just have to do what we can to get them to harvest.
I actually harvested my plants last grow on the 14th of April, which was followed by a week or so of dark rainy windy weather. But if this year's plants need to go until late April or early May, then so be it. Last grow I regretted not letting the Strawberry Cough go at least until the end of April, as it started flowering nearly 3 weeks after the other 2 plants, in hindsight I harvested it too early, I should have waited for some amber trichomes but that spell of bad weather was about it hit so I folded when I should have waited longer.
Definitely no snow in my neck of the woods, but you sure made a herculean effort to get your Arjan's Haze home, that was impressive, and excellent that it turned out to be a great smoke!
Thanks Emeraldo! Great info.
- Thread starter
- #36
General Update
We've had plenty of sunshine this past week and the soil of the recently up-potted Mulanje's was getting dried out, so I added a layer of pea straw mulch to their containers, and topped it was some plastic mesh trellis material to discourage the birds from digging it up for worms, of which there is plenty in the soil.
Seedlings
Sexing the Mulanje
This is where it gets tricky. I have been taking a lot of closeup pics of the nodes to see if there is any clear indication of the gender of these 2 plants. I am guessing at the moment that I have one of each. That the #1 is leaning towards a potential male, and the #2 a potential female. I have put a closeup pic underneath each so you can judge for yourselves what you think they could be, altho I think it is too early to say for sure. Initially before I topped both plants the #2 was 50% taller than the #1, so I thought that may be a male, but now I am thinking the opposite. Of course once pistils or pollen balls show then it is clear, but in the meantime...
#1 Mulanje
#2 Mulanje
Anyway, that's the update. I will continue to check the nodes for signs of gender. Stay safe and well and may your gardens be blooming with buds!
We've had plenty of sunshine this past week and the soil of the recently up-potted Mulanje's was getting dried out, so I added a layer of pea straw mulch to their containers, and topped it was some plastic mesh trellis material to discourage the birds from digging it up for worms, of which there is plenty in the soil.
Seedlings
Sexing the Mulanje
This is where it gets tricky. I have been taking a lot of closeup pics of the nodes to see if there is any clear indication of the gender of these 2 plants. I am guessing at the moment that I have one of each. That the #1 is leaning towards a potential male, and the #2 a potential female. I have put a closeup pic underneath each so you can judge for yourselves what you think they could be, altho I think it is too early to say for sure. Initially before I topped both plants the #2 was 50% taller than the #1, so I thought that may be a male, but now I am thinking the opposite. Of course once pistils or pollen balls show then it is clear, but in the meantime...
#1 Mulanje
#2 Mulanje
Anyway, that's the update. I will continue to check the nodes for signs of gender. Stay safe and well and may your gardens be blooming with buds!
Emeraldo
Well-Known Member
I see a little stem or "pedestal" under the growth on #1 (telltale sign of male). And that is not the case for #2.
Oh, but they are looking wonderful!
If you get a male, are you going to harvest pollen?
Oh, but they are looking wonderful!
If you get a male, are you going to harvest pollen?
Beautiful green color. You have that low crawl down pat. Great structure! This early a start, sativa can get huge. 
I'm sitting on my hands for another week before I commit! They're looking great no matter what sex they are though. 
They're feeling the love Stunger!