SIP Club - Getting Hydro/Coco Results In A Soil Based Medium

[CBDMed]

Hey bud I know @Keffka And @Stunger have used supersoil and may have an idea. Sorry I can't offer help on that one. @FelipeBlu was always the one with the numbers...

I'm just here for the excitement and DIY photos. I really need to catch up more here because there's sooooo much good stuff going on!

Hi @Krissi Carbone ! Thanks for writing! I love this thread, but I am drowning in work right now. (It is 5:25 AM and I just finished the deadline, and I haven't slept, so I have had to pull back to the bare minimums on my thread only. I love seeing your bud pics! "Suitable for framing", as they say! Happy toking!

 

[CBDMed]

Never got "N" def. I got a "K" def. in flower though. Could even be P & K really. Since I'm on my last 2 weeks I started just using 5.5 gr. MC & 5 mil. of PK Booster to see what happens. They don't seem to be yellowing as much now. I really think it's because they lowered the K in MC. Using Maxigrow & Bloom on my next run. The Maxi Bloom has more PK in it than MC so we'll see how that goes.

Thanks @Buds Buddy ! I must have understood something wrong. But that seems weird. Why would yours be K or PK deficient, and mine is N deficiency?? ("Does not compute...")

 

[NickHardy]

Lucky you, long ago I spent great times on Samui and Phangan, probably changed heaps but still sound nice spots to be. A mate's married and living on the mainland, he seems to enjoy it.
Sounds great that Thailand has loosened up about things.

Not on either of those islands. I’m West Coast but have been a few times. A little too small for me. Apart from lots of construction they probably look the same! Yeah Thailand laws are a bit like the wild west right now! Just trying to follow whatever is legal and I’ll shut down in an instant anything changes. Thai jails are not happy places!

EDIT - anyone heading out this way DM me and I’m happy to be your travel advisory service!

 

[CBDMed]

So to go back to talk about my post earlier today about auto watering a SIP. A funny thing happened. In my email I got an ad for Earth pot's "auto watering system". Go figure! I can go and buy one off the shelf if I like the earth pot. It's like they watch us. Kind of spooky!

They do watch us.

 

[Azimuth]

Thanks @Buds Buddy ! I must have understood something wrong. But that seems weird. Why would yours be K or PK deficient, and mine is N deficiency?? ("Does not compute...")

Because, as we've already discussed in your thread, your's is not Subcool's mix. You may have started with his recipe but by adding the massive amount of rice hulls to the mix that you did and maybe not letting it cook long enough, you are getting different results than expected.

Change the recipe and you get different results. I think you should try to find ways of supplementing N to try to make it work for this round, but you shouldn't be surprised that you are having issues.

 

[CBDMed]

Hey @Keffka ! Thanks for writing!

I don’t know the makeup of your soil but I can say in super soils a deficiency is usually an indicator of something else going on. With nitrogen it could be as simple as being out of balance or it could be as bad as an anaerobic medium, you gotta figure out what’s driving your issue.

Yeah. It probably has something to do with my aeration.
I am not sure if my supersoil recipe did not specify aeration, but I did not add any.
I am not sure why, but the light bulb came on, and I checked my supersoil damp. It completely flunked the tilth "crush" test. It sat there like a tight damp lump that did not even think of opening up! So then I realized I needed more aeration!
@ReservoirDog recommended 60-40 aeration with Perlite. Only, they use rice hulls down here for aeration, and the people I was listening to at the time (Azi) suggested I buy cheap and local when practicable, so as to avoid outrageous shipping fees to Colombia.
They put rice hulls in all pots down here. I don't think they mix them 50-50, but I thought that they would compact a little right away, so I THOUGHT it would end up more like 60-40. (But not! Haha!)
Does it seem reasonable that due to the quantity, the rice hulls could be eating up N?

In a SIP the amount of oxygen being delivered to the microbes really amps up their efficiency which in turn requires more nitrogen for more enzymatic activity, I have a feeling this is going to be a common issue until people adjust to the heightened levels of production and microbial efficiency. A little extra N on the top and bottom of your container could ease it.

Personally I use about a tsp or 2 per gallon of soil of my N source when top dressing with blood meal, or if it’s real bad I’ll go with a Veg tea. I would be very cautious though as things can quickly spiral if your problem isn’t N deficiency and it’s actually something else. As a side note, I really like Hydrolyzed fish.. it gives a helpful N boost and Fungi love it.

I like the Hydrolized fish idea, but your warning gives me serious pause.
Watering with dog water doesn't seem so bad! Haha! It seems to work.

Here’s a list of “organic” sources of nitrogen:

“Organic” Nitrogen sources 1/3

• Keffka
• Nov 30, 2022

“Organic” Nitrogen sources 2/3

• Keffka
• Nov 30, 2022

“Organic” Nitrogen sources 3/3

• Keffka
• Nov 30, 2022

Thank you, @Keffka !

 

[CBDMed]

Because, as we've already discussed in your thread, your's is not Subcool's mix. You may have started with his recipe but by adding the massive amount of rice hulls to the mix that you did and maybe not letting it cook long enough, you are getting different results than expected.

Haha, well, in my defense, the soil was cold when I stuck my hand in the tub. If it had seemed even the slightest bit warm, I would not have used it.

Change the recipe and you get different results. I think you should try to find ways of supplementing N to try to make it work for this round, but you shouldn't be surprised that you are having issues.

Siiii.... But @Keffka 's warning gives me serious pause.
The "sparkling champagne" dog water routine seems to be working well, so maybe that is just the way to go until the rice hulls are substantially decomposed?
And I can add Perlite to maintain the aeration as the rice hulls decompose.

 

[CBDMed]

Hey @Pete Detroit !

SuperCool's recipe was inspirational, to me.

Me, too!

As in - some people have WAY too much time and energy (and SPACE) on their hands.

Hahahaha!

I then realized I could get 80%+ of the result for 20% the complexity, and it would be scalable.

Siiii!! I went from mixing chemical ferts and balancing pH daily, to mixing it up good once, and then just add water!
And the flavor was so. much. better! (And I love those worm castings!)

I have had NO issues in veg, and am supplementing with GeoFlora in bloom, don't know that it's needed, but I have it, I'm using it. Recipe toward the top of both grow journals in my sig.

That's good to know!
I am taking @Keffka 's advice to heart, and plan to continue supplementing with the "sparkling champagne" (haha, urine) until the rice hulls are substantially more decomposed, and replaced with Ag Perlite (in the future).

Sorry if you think you're having N issues, but they're easily cured, no?

Yes!

Some girls are hungrier than others?

Yes! Haha!
Two of the Afghan Mass XXL and one of the Delicious Candy (Delicious Cheese) still won't turn green!
So I guess Fido will keep on watering!

 

[Azimuth]

@Keffka 's comment was directed to a Subcool soil mix, which is not what you have. Subcool's mix should not have any deficiencies because of the way it is built. Therefore, if you do get deficiencies it is likely something else.

You introduced a major "something else" with the amount of rice hulls you added. And then you tossed in some un-charged "bio" char which in your case is likely acting as a filter and holding on to nutes that would otherwise be available to your plants. You messed with the recipe and now are seeing why changing a proven recipe is not always a great idea.

You may have done it with good intentions but the results are the same. Now you have to find a work-around.

 

[StoneOtter]

A fairly reasonably priced SIP that can be found at your local Home Depot in case anyone needs something quick and easy.... holds about 11gal of soil with 2 gallon reservoir - CITY PICKERS 24.5 in. x 20.5 in. Patio Raised Garden Bed Grow Box Kit with Watering System and Casters in Terra Cotta 2340D - The Home Depot

That looks like a nice deal Nick!

The key to remember for a 'water tower' or Hamster bottle type of self feeding rez is that it's SEALED - if it's open, the water will all run out and make a mess. If it's sealed, it will only dispense water when there is air below the tube to bubble up. put the end of the tube below the top of the dome, you should be good to go. Might have issues w/ diameter / run of the tube - would not want it to be too narrow, tho I suppose the air will figure it out..

That's the science of it pete thanks. Before I found out they offer one of their own I was thinking of a permanent water tube with a 90 degree fitting facing down making the 1 inch space to the soil. All solid in place so no change in height.

 

[Buds Buddy]

Thanks @Buds Buddy ! I must have understood something wrong. But that seems weird. Why would yours be K or PK deficient, and mine is N deficiency?? ("Does not compute...")

I was in flower when it started. The yellowing started more at the top of the plant. That's a P or K def. N starts at the bottom and works it's way up.

 

[Keffka]

@Keffka 's comment was directed to a Subcool soil mix, which is not what you have. Subcool's mix should not have any deficiencies because of the way it is built. Therefore, if you do get deficiencies it is likely something else.

You introduced a major "something else" with the amount of rice hulls you added. And then you tossed in some un-charged "bio" char which in your case is likely acting as a filter and holding on to nutes that would otherwise be available to your plants. You messed up the recipe and now are seeing why changing a proven recipe is not always a great idea.

You may have done it with good intentions but the results are the same. Now you have to find a work-around.

Az hit the nail right here @el gringuito
I missed that you made some adjustments or were working off your own recipe. When it comes to super soils and LOS type grows, the items are chosen specifically to interact with one another. It’s also why when people use a recipe in one place, some times it won’t work in other places, because something small is off like using steamed bone meal over unsteamed bone meal. It’s not the end of the world but you’re quickly learning why we don’t deviate unless we understand the knock on effects. You’re also going to learn some extra things you weren’t prepared for lol, which isn’t necessarily a bad thing, it’ll make you a better grower in the long run.

I get where you were coming from completely and don’t judge you for attempting to take control of your recipe, at least you’re attempting to think outside of the box. If you’re interested in continuing down the soil path I highly recommend you grab a couple books, Teaming with Microbes, Teaming with nutrients, and teaming with Fungi, I haven’t gotten to teaming with bacteria yet but that’s just a bonus book at this point (you can dm me for “information” about the books if you can’t find them with a google search). Those books will completely inform you of what you’re doing, why you’re doing it, and how to be sustainable and ethical about it. The sources of N I posted were straight out of one of the books.

As far as your current situation goes, you may have to repot with better aeration, I’m not sure, it’s hard to get an understanding of what you’ve got going on. If that’s not possible and N rescue is your only choice, then go with something balanced and light like an all purpose 4-4-4/5-5-5 there’s plenty of “organic” all purpose choices and this will help ward off major risks posed by stronger options like blood meal.

I’m heading out the door now but I’ll take some time later and read through all of your notes on the situation and see if I can’t spot something

 

[NickHardy]

Because, as we've already discussed in your thread, your's is not Subcool's mix. You may have started with his recipe but by adding the massive amount of rice hulls to the mix that you did and maybe not letting it cook long enough, you are getting different results than expected.

Change the recipe and you get different results. I think you should try to find ways of supplementing N to try to make it work for this round, but you shouldn't be surprised that you are having issues.

Yep agree - any environment is complex. Follow the instructions/advice - people can give you advice based on playbooks based on their "own bad beats" Riff on those bits of advice at your own peril.

I'm trying to dial in a Co2 controller right now. I have the Co2 delivery system and sensor and the extraction system. I'm 5 hours in and just starting to get close to what I want with just two variables. Soil is another level. Change one variable and observe. It works whether or its growing or IT or your pet's habits - any complex system. Change a bunch of stuff at the same time and be prepared to fail - and failing can be fun but the solution is always go back to basics. Change one thing at a time.

DBB

 

[Fenderbender]

Look how big it is.. I could fit two of these but to what end? where would I go with all the plant? This should suffice.. fill it, seed it, top once go left and right and when they reach the side walls flip to flower.
I'm going to use the two nets again but I'm going to try to stick a long stick sideways and some short sticks crosswise in the net so I get a fishbone structure to tie the plant to, and then the second net to space out the buds.

 

[Gidorah]

Wow Fender, let that veg and one plant will fill your whole tent! Looks great, hope it works out.

 

[Bode]

Hi guys,

Wow, this is a fast moving thread!! So many posters, different topics, etc. I want to address a nitrogen issue. Rice hulls are trying to decompose. Nitrogen is consumed when decomposition happens. I found that out in my canna garden, as I use mostly veg. materials I have on site, so I can use a lot. I always add a lot of extra nitrogen (bloodmeal) to keep the compost process going for more nutrients at the root level. Alfalfa meal is a great choice, but I have deer around occasionally, and alfalfa would alert them to a yummy food! Other meals would work, I just choose bloodmeal because it's so easy!! Happy Smokin'

 

[Keffka]

@el gringuito I just took a look at your journal.. Ill stop in there so we can continue hashing out ideas and knowledge and not bog down @Azimuth journal but I will add this here since it’s sort of relevant.

I’m strongly suspecting it is your rice hulls giving you grief along with your SIP.. @Bode mentioned it above and I concur. The rice hulls are stealing a bit of your nitrogen in their decomp process..
A lot of times this can go unnoticed, however you’re running a SIP. The extra oxygen of a SIP is also driving your microbes faster, which require more enzymes which require proteins which require nitrogen. There’s quite a few ways to bring nitrogen in that are relatively mellow, and at this point I feel pretty comfortable telling you Nitrogen is needed.

It’s all about balance. Oxygen is a critical element needed for plant and root growth. In the SIP you’ve introduced more oxygen than in your average container grow, this is going to lead to increased activity which is going to require increased resources. A lot of people forget that Oxygen is also a required element that requires balance because it used to be uncommon that you could deliver enough oxygen to the root zone in soil that it would require balancing. Plus when was the last time you saw “Oxygen” on a bag of nutes lol?

You have 2 sources dragging on your nitrogen supplies, and haven’t balanced your soil for that. Luckily nitrogen is a fairly straightforward fix when it is the issue.

 

[Bode]

I want to add another point I noticed about nutrients. At an accelerated grow rate (JMS, tea's, etc.) nutrients are used up at a much faster rate. I noticed this when I first applied the Jadam's Microbe Solution once a week. Everything (cannabis, veggies, herbs) grew more robust! I noticed a nitrogen deficiency the first year, so first time I needed to supplement with anything. This year I needed nitrogen and phosphorus. All this because the plants are producing the best garden I've ever had. Happy Smokin'

 

[Keffka]

I want to add another point I noticed about nutrients. At an accelerated grow rate (JMS, tea's, etc.) nutrients are used up at a much faster rate. I noticed this when I first applied the Jadam's Microbe Solution once a week. Everything (cannabis, veggies, herbs) grew more robust! I noticed a nitrogen deficiency the first year, so first time I needed to supplement with anything. This year I needed nitrogen and phosphorus. All this because the plants are producing the best garden I've ever had. Happy Smokin'

Myco really helps with Phosphorus availability if you’re finding it a reoccurring issue. Phosphorus gets tied up quickly in soil and Myco is the best releaser. Interestingly though, too much P will limit mycos presence, which can become another tail chase. You add P to the soil to make it available and it gets tied up but it’s presence discourages the main releaser of P so you lose even more access to it, so you add more blah blah blah.

 

[CBDMed]

Az hit the nail right here @el gringuito

Yeah, thanks! I know it. (Painfully aware.) I just can't do anything about it at this point.
It is a saga how I got here. Azi has helped me every step of the way (the guy deserves a medal).
I got here to rural Colombia and could not find organic anything.
The short version is, after much searching, eventually I found organic soil, and organic nutes, and made supersoil, etc.
Then I realized the need to add aeration, and *thought I had checked rice hulls out (but misread what Azi said).
Through many trials I stumbled forward to where I am now.

Things are finally starting to level out, with a lot of good help from @Azimuth , you, @cbdhemp808 , @StoneOtter , @InTheShed , @Bode, and others.
It has been a saga, though! In the States I would just drive to the Big Box store, buy what I need, throw it in the truck, come home and plant. Done. Here it is nothing like that.

Oy. The un-charged BioChar was a (big) noob mistake. Everyone said to add activated charcoal and zeolyte, so I did. I did not know you had to charge them first!! (Eventually they will charge up.)
But could I please ask you? I don't really get the benefit of adding batteries to the soil. I mean, you charge it up, but then it gets spent?? (So what is the point?? How does it get re-charged?? I must be missing something....)

I missed that you made some adjustments or were working off your own recipe. When it comes to super soils and LOS type grows, the items are chosen specifically to interact with one another. It’s also why when people use a recipe in one place, some times it won’t work in other places, because something small is off like using steamed bone meal over unsteamed bone meal. It’s not the end of the world but you’re quickly learning why we don’t deviate unless we understand the knock on effects. You’re also going to learn some extra things you weren’t prepared for lol, which isn’t necessarily a bad thing, it’ll make you a better grower in the long run.

Yeah. I was going to add Perlite, but then I realized that I wasn't going to get silica in the soil by adding Perlite.
Azi suggested using what is local and cheap, so I did.
As mentioned, the locals use rice hulls for everything, so I thought to try it.

I get where you were coming from completely and don’t judge you for attempting to take control of your recipe, at least you’re attempting to think outside of the box.

Thanks!

If you’re interested in continuing down the soil path I highly recommend you grab a couple books, Teaming with Microbes, Teaming with nutrients, and teaming with Fungi, I haven’t gotten to teaming with bacteria yet but that’s just a bonus book at this point (you can dm me for “information” about the books if you can’t find them with a google search). Those books will completely inform you of what you’re doing, why you’re doing it, and how to be sustainable and ethical about it. The sources of N I posted were straight out of one of the books.

Thanks! I bought The Rev and Teaming with Microbes, and also a book on KNF, and one on JADAM. I have not had time to crack any of them (e.g., I was up until 8AM this morning [all nighter], and then got only a few hours to crash. I hope to catch up tonight.) I love gardening, and I would love to read those books and more! (It's jus' been a lil' busy...)

I was going to try @Bill284 's method, so I have some coco laying around. I might try that sometime in a SIP or SWICK, or maybe even just a fabric pot (because it rains here every day). But probably I need to learn SIPs first.

As far as your current situation goes, you may have to repot with better aeration, I’m not sure, it’s hard to get an understanding of what you’ve got going on. If that’s not possible and N rescue is your only choice, then go with something balanced and light like an all purpose 4-4-4/5-5-5 there’s plenty of “organic” all purpose choices and this will help ward off major risks posed by stronger options like blood meal.

Well, as mentioned, if the dog water is working, I think just to leave it.
Earlier I said that if I was to do it again I would use mostly Perlite instead, but I dunno. I really like the idea of having silica in the soil, so I might just replicate.
If not, I could go 50% soil, 25% Perlite, and 25% rice hulls, but if it is working with 50-50, like you said, why not leave it? because the rice hulls will break down over time, and leave silica. And as it breaks down I can add Perlite.
Please feel free to ask questions. I appreciate your help!

I’m heading out the door now but I’ll take some time later and read through all of your notes on the situation and see if I can’t spot something

Thanks! If you want to post on the other thread, that would help me a lot! (But if it is better for you here, then whatever is better for you.)