Rifleman's Roost Open 24/7: Perpetually Perplexed

Rifleman said:
The nutrient line is chelated and makes the nutrients available pretty much throughout the range.
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Really? I've been wondering what all the blah-blah about 'chelated' things was. Thanks for the insight.
Just to re-cap... the point of chelated nutrient bits is to make those bits available at a broader PH range... yes?
Hmm.... I'd sure like to see a PH/Nutrient Uptake chart using chelated bits.
 
The short version is that chelated nutrients are more available in a wider PH range than non-chelated micro nutrients. The long version is listed below.


"Chelated Micronutrients
by Dr. Terrence Fullerton

Chelated micronutrients are widely used in agriculture and are strongly promoted by the
fertilizer industry. Exactly what are they and why should they be used?

The word chelate is derived from the Greek word for “claw”. In fertilizer technology, it
refers to inorganic nutrients that are enclosed by an organic molecule. The example
below shows how a nutrient such as iron combines with the chemical EDTA to form a
chelate.

The EDTA surrounds the inorganic iron and forms weak bonds with it, effectively giving
the nutrient an organic coating. A chelate is also called a “complex” in other areas of
chemistry but this term is not usually used in the fertilizer industry.

Chelates are useful for micronutrients applied to alkaline soils. Iron, manganese, zinc
and copper react with the ions found at high pH to form insoluble substances. As a
result, the nutrients are made unavailable to plants. The organic coating in the chelate
prevents these reactions from occurring in the soil. The plant roots take up the chelated
nutrient and the chelate releases the nutrient within the plant.

Chelated nutrients are also useful for foliar application. Plant leaves have a waxy
coating that prevents them from drying. The wax repels water and inorganic substances
making it difficult for inorganic nutrients to penetrate into the leaf. However, organic
molecules can penetrate the wax.

The organic coating around the chelated nutrient allows it to penetrate through
the wax into the leaf. Once in the leaf, the chelate releases the nutrient so that it
can be used by the plant.

The bond between the organic chemical and the inorganic nutrient must be
strong enough to protect the nutrient, but must be weak enough to release the
nutrient once it gets into the plant. Also, the chelating agent must not be harmful
to plants.

Not all nutrients can be chelated. Iron, zinc, copper, manganese, calcium and
magnesium can be chelated, the other nutrients cannot.

Several organic substances (chelating agents) are used to produce chelates.
EDTA is the most common synthetic chelating agent and is used for both soil and
foliar applied nutrients. DTPA is used mainly for chelates applied to alkaline soils.
It is more effective than EDTA but is usually more expensive. Iron chelates made
with HEDTA and EDDHA are the most effective iron fertilizers on high pH soils
but are also the most expensive.

There are a number of natural products used as chelating agents.
Lignosulfonates, phenols and polyflavinoid chelates are produced using
fermented by-products mainly from the wood pulp industry. Citric acid and other
organic acids are also used .

There is considerable debate over which chelating agents are the most cost-
effective, but remember that whichever chelate you choose, it must contain the
the nutrients that your plants need."
 
Tead said:
Really? I've been wondering what all the blah-blah about 'chelated' things was. Thanks for the insight.
Just to re-cap... the point of chelated nutrient bits is to make those bits available at a broader PH range... yes?
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Think of it as the thing that allows your plants to be able to use the nutrients without having to wait around for said nutrients to get eaten and shat out by a microherd first. Kind of (but not really) facilitators.
 
TorturedSoul said:
Think of it as the thing that allows your plants to be able to use the nutrients without having to wait around for said nutrients to get eaten and shat out by a microherd first. Kind of (but not really) facilitators.
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Thanks for the info baby! I've been not worrying about it so much, but I can see it's magic.
I will take a moment to point out that the 'microherd' comments above apply to soil... not my perlite pots, or other hydro methods.
 
Right, exactly (which is why chelated nutrients are important).
 
Hey ! Who the neck is in charge around here ? Lazy slacker I'd say. :cool: Not to worry though, nothing has been happening. :eek: Some of my seed stock is nearly 5 yrs old and I believe it is starting to show its age. Lack of germination, or just stopping after sprouting has been the major malfunction. Due to that the Sour Crack has been eliminated from the line up and replaced by a SSDC (waiting on germ), and everyone else is just getting off the ground.

Let's take a look below and I'll tell y'all where we are as far as seed making is going. :hmmmm:



Four Assed Monkey, Day 8. Roots out of netpot on day 6.
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Day 8


Sour Stomper, Day 3.
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Day 3


Blue Tooth, Day 2.
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Day 2


SSDC, waiting to pop up.
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Waiting...grrr


Now on to spraying with CS. First I isolate the branch I want to spray and reverse. I've snipped a couple of leaves to open up the area I want to spray, and put a pipe cleaner on it for easy identification.
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Isolate the branch.


Then I use a paper towel to keep over spray from getting in the rest of the plant. She gets one pump per day on the nodes where buds should form. Today is Day 4 of spraying. I've also figured out why soil growers talk so much smack about autos being small. This thing is growing slower than a DDA.
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Spraying with CS.
 
It's been 17 days since I put the buckets on line and the lesson for y'all today is.... plan your timeline better. :D Today was day 9 spraying with CS. Due to my germination and sprouting issues the NCH will be putting out pollen long before the other girls are ready to receive it. o_O

The garden as it stands this morning.
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Full garden.


Fifth seed I've had do this in the last few grows. They never sprout real leaves before dying.
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Another problem child ?


No matter how much you rinse the clay pellets, they will shed when put to work. This is looking down into a bucket before the first water change. It usually is only this bad the first time you change out the reservoirs.
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Speaking of water changes there are a few things I take notes on for each plant when I do the changes. I'll list them here:

1. What feed formula the plant is getting that week.
2. pH of the old mix.
3. ppm of the old mix.
4. Height of plant.
5. Grown since last measurement.
6. How much water the plant used since last change.
7. pH of the new mix.
8. ppm of the new mix.
9. The ppm of the H2O before adding nutrients.
10. The nutrient value ppm of the new mix. Arrived at by subtracting #9(above) from #8.

I know that probably sounds confusing to those of you that have no knowledge of DWC, but that's why we're here. Ask em if ya got em ! Questions always welcome.

See y'all in a few days when I've got something else to share. Peace ! :peace:
 
Rifleman said:
Due to my germination and sprouting issues the NCH will be putting out pollen long before the other girls are ready to receive it.
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Far better than if the reverse had happened, I'd imagine. You can collect the pollen and store it dry in your refrigerator or freezer (I don't suppose I need to tell you to keep the container sealed until it reaches room temperature so that it doesn't "draw" condensation like when one pulls a cold can of soda out on a hot day), but you can't really do that with female flowers, at least while expecting any useful result.

Rifleman said:
No matter how much you rinse the clay pellets, they will shed when put to work.
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Not really surprising. Plant roots can crack a sidewalk, lol, and I'd expect some shifting to occur. Rub a couple of those things together just right and you might get a little dust. I used to meticulously pick out all the broken pieces whenever I'd buy a bag of Hydroton or Geo... not Geodon, that's one of the many pills my crazy ex-girlfriend was prescribed. Geo... lite? Anyway, I used to pick all the "rejects" out until I realized that, since I routinely saw broken pieces anyway when cleaning up after harvest, that there was no point.

BtW, thank you for showing people how simple/effective the DWC hydroponic method really is. I have had a fondness for it for years. I'll sometimes encourage a new grower to start out with that method even if he/she thinks he/she might want to go with soil, because... Well, if a person is just starting to learn the basics, I figure it's better to have some reasonable expectation that any change (positive or negative) will occur more or less immediately after the gardener does whatever it is that provokes that change. As opposed to soil with its buffering (et cetera) characteristics, which can sometimes result in newbie doing multiple things, seeing an issue present itself - and having no real idea as to which thing actually caused it. Plus it seems to make it easier to learn concepts such as pH and EC, (often) make it harder on garden pests to complete their life cycle, etc.
 
Saycheez said:
If my tap water read 115 ppm how much Nutrients I use . For seedling
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That's better than my tap water, its around 135. In my experience after they have the first true set of leaves nearly all can handle 25% strength of the nutrient manufacturer recommendation. I use Advanced Nutrients pH Perfect. Mixing at approx 25% into my tap water gives me a total ppm reading around 520ppm. Which brand nutrients are you using ?
 
Saycheez said:
That sounds great u think I should put my ppm 500 when I put the Nutrients
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Not having any experience or knowledge of the nutrients you're using, my suggestion would be to start at a 25% strength of what the bottle tells you. See where that gets you ppm wise, and watch your plants to see if you can tell what they need. <~~~~~ point here, reading your plants comes with experience, which means failure. Don't be afraid to be wrong, but always take notes and learn if a mistake is made.

I bet I made that about as clear as mud huh ? :rofl:
 
Brief garden update. I added 9ml Hydroguard to each bucket today due to reservoir temperatures of 80°F. o_O:oops::eek:

Life is never easy folks. We're burning wood for heat due to a hvac malfunction. I'll be shit if I'm not destined to be starting over trying to build a supply all over again. :confused:
 
I'm finally about to catch my tail and stop running in circles today. But before I pass out I'm going to share a couple of photos.

These first two are to show you that even experienced growers sometimes have unavoidable problems that can set a grow timeline back by weeks. This is a SSDC that never sprouted leaves. Day 7 since popping up. I will be pulling this from the grow and procede with only three buckets.
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1-11-19


And this is a Sour Stomper that popped a deformed set of first leaves, and has been slowed down while it grows out like a clone. Both of these problems happened this grow. It normally wouldn't be a big deal, but don't forget this was supposed to be a quick and easy seed run. Now I have two choices; collect and save pollen until these are ready for it, or just let it fly in the tent until I'm sure they are all pollinated. The last time I did that I grew 6k seeds. Rather not do that again. :p
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1-11-19


Finally a shot of the budsite right after spraying with the CS. Notice the pistils are darkening and beginning to recede. It won't be long before we have pollen. :yahoo: That's it. I'm done for the night, nearing 40 hrs awake and I'm beat. Peace y'all ! :peace:
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I hope you can get your furnace issue straightened out, and that it makes it through to Spring.
 
Get some rest. :hugs:
 
TorturedSoul said:
I hope you can get your furnace issue straightened out, and that it makes it through to Spring.
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Thanks TS. It's working now. Well in fact. Not that I needed it today. After two days of a fire in the stove the entire mass of the home was 77° throughout. Barefoot and running around like it was Summer. :cool:

SweetSue said:
Get some rest. :hugs:
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I hope to tonight Ma'am. I've spent the last two awake worrying about CO poisoning, chimney fires, house fires, and in general any mayhem my overactive imagination could come up with. :rolleyes: I should be back to normal as long as the hvac holds out tonight. The cold night will be a good test for it.

BTW, for @SweetSue and anyone else interested, I've got a smoke report on my green pheno SSDC. Although it smelled like a DDA when growing, the cure has left it with no real discernable connection to it's heritage. The flavor is unimpressive, muddy. Reminiscent of commercial brick grass. The high is a very acceptable head high, lasting more than three hours for me. Remember I have the tolerance of an oz a week smoker, and occasional body blasting brownie eater. :ciao:

I'm not sure if it is due to the last few days happenings around here, or if it's the SSDC. I plan to figure it out after a healthy night's sleep, but I think it is literal speed weed. My heart has been racing, I've had no appetite, and seemingly I have more energy than a house full of puppies. I've done more here in the last 60hrs than in the last 60 days. With only a twitch of paranoia once. If it is the weed doing it, I'll have to ration it. I can't do "up" like this days on end, I'll be digging out some calming grass to swap off with. :passitleft:
 
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